manna SECRET SUEJEET PARTICIPANTS TD L awb lg 51if an-H BF f 59150- DEPARTMENT ca STATE r luaa Itllea app by Hertcr and ahcwn by hand tc Dillcn a Murph De Julir 1959 2-5 3 Memcrandum cf Ccnrersc en chrun Military Paragrapha cf Eaaic Hatichal Security Pclicy g j3 lfayj The White chee Defence Department 5 The President Secretary McElrcy Hr Gurdun Gray deneral Deputy Secretary Thomas S Datee Jr State Department secretary Herter Admiral Arthur H Gerard D Smith The Preeident lacked at the atatement cf lacuea which had been prepared by Garden Dray a ccpy cf which 15 attached He aaid it is almcat impuaaihlc tc define general war and limited war Dne cannut plan out theae things preciaely in advance Secretary Herter aaid that Juet laat year Mr Dullea in going alcng with the military paragrapha cf the Eaaic Haticnal Security Pclicr paper had urged a reatudy hecauae cf the State Department'a ccncern that nuclear weapcna were to he ccnaidered ccnrenticnal that any engagement between Scriet and American fcrcea wculd he tctal war and i- that HE TDP SECRET EFD a'hhcr'ny I REPH THE nae I-evta aw an 3 Murmur- 11 -3 that we to have no leeway in the matter of fighting amall engagementa without uaing nuclear weapona ll The Freeident recalled that he admiral Eadford and General Taylor had had a long or this matter sometime ago The Preaident pointed out that the Japaneae and in the E 'e had had large- acale military engagementa without any formal declaration of war The Freeident apeculated that it might be poaeihle or ue to have aomething like three hattalicna engaged in Iran againat aeviet forces withent general war He aaid hawever if our vital intereata became involved we certainly ehould nuclear weapone Secretary Herter agreed The Prcaidcnt aaid that he had tried to find language to meet thia problem which he aeemed to equate to the problem of how much authority ahould he delegated to field ccmmandere to uac nuclear The Preaident aaid that the crux of the matter was that we Juet could not deploy ground foreea all over the world Hain reliance would have to he placed on nuclear weapone and mobile forcea -The Secretary TDP EEGHET iru'u AT THE HATIDHAL TOP SECRET Tho Eoorotary pointod out tho possibility that aomotimo in tho futuro us might hays to introduoo forooa into Africa at whioh timo us would not want to uso nuoloar wospono Ho also oitod tho Lohanon oxamolo whoro tho military had wantod to go ashoro with nuoloar woapono hut tho Stats Dopurtmont urgod against it Tho Prosidont rororrod to Ehruahohor's statomont to Harriman rosontly that if tho Chinoso triad to tako Formosa tho Russians would assist thom and that tho Russians had alroady mado roohots availahlo to tho Bhinoso uhioh oould atriko Formosa Tho Prosidont spooulatod that tho Soviots aro wrootling with tho samo prohlom that wo aro oonoidoring this morning Hoturning to tho quootion or whon nnolaar ooapons should to rosortod to tho Prooidont onnrossod somo pusalomont Ho said oortainly thoy shouhi not to roaortod to oaroloaoly but if substantial Amorioan troops woro inyolyod thoy should hawo nuoloar woapons handy Soorotary hoElrgy TUP SECRET LEL-L Ijhl HI- J humerus NM hf HEFFIDIEHJCED HT THE NAHUM-EL ARCHIVES Burg le H nh mi ai THE SECRET Secretary then pcintcd cut that General Twining agreed with him McElrch that the present pclicy shculd be retained Unless we could use nuclear weapcns we cculd net participate in limited wars The President recalled that during the last war american had had available if necessary mustard gasI but that it had'never been used He wcndered at what peint'in the spectrum between harassment and limited war we shculd rescrt tc nuclear weapcns Secretary McElrcy then said there were significant budget ccnsideraticns in the prepcsed pclicy changes The President then referred tn the impcesibilitw cf cur statiening garriscns all ever the The President said that Secretary pcint cf View was cur present pclicy and it was being implemented He recalled that when we reduced cur in Kcrea we beefed up the remaining fcrces with nuclear capability Admiral then said that the State Department wanted the military tc fight with ccnrenticnal until it was decided tc 3c tc nuclear weapcne Her are past THE SECRET swig JlW 4' urn- HEPFI AT THE NATIONAL arc past that pcint ha said In 1953 as a crucial dccisica tc ccnrart cum tc nuclcar waapcns capability fact that that are nuclcar capahls psrmits as tc uss small scala units tc dc a which cculd cnly cs acaa with much largsr was than a discussica ahcut qucsticn cf dalcgatica cf authcrity tc auclsar wcapcas Frasidsnt scma ahcut pcssihilits cf judgmaat c3 lccal ccmmanacr rcfarrsd tc pcssihility cf using tactical acapcas ia saccss cf 1 msgatca as at last Tucscay's hrisring by Admiral Parkcr Admiral than said that Parksr's hricfing was act vcry gccd Hc rccallcd that as arc ca small acapcns Es said that Gcacral Lsmnitssr and Admiral Burks had him that was ac rcal Stats and Dsfsasc languaga but that thcy Stats languagc Admiral Raarcrd said that Stats languagc acula rcquirc a U5 capability tc fight a limitad war with cr aithcat naclsar asapcns Hc pcintca cut that sarlisr 5 pclicy ca nuclcar wcapcas had alrcaay bssa dam - TDP SECRET In I I a HEPHGMEU AT THE AH ES TDP SECRET dawn Their new in caly authcriaed tc meat naticnal cbjectivee and act military cbjectivea He aaid thin change futaed up the ieeuc The Preaident then epeculated abcut that type cf farce cne wauld have tc any if cur intern centicn in Cuba nae requested He later that nc nuclear capability aculd be required in each caea The President eaid that he thcught we were having difficulty becauea we were trying tc find generalized language tc cater a multitude cf ccntingenciee The Preeident eaid we need plane tc guide the raricue layele cf the military Certainly cur fcrcea need tc have nuclear weapcna The real can when eculd the be uaed admiral eaid that if there was any chance that car fcrcae eculd have tc fight eitheut nuclear weapcne a whale different farce atructure cculd be required The Preeident acid that he had been atudiea indicating that the availability cf nuclear weapcna dcae reeult in a eating cf manpceer admiral TOP SECRET I a a Faith HEPHDDU-EED THE NATIONAL Manatee yj ma a-e TDP SECRET admiral then went hank tn the an the new leek The Preeident reealled that the ere-Harea military budget had gene dawn te aheut til er $12 hillien and that eat there he and Lnuia Jehneen differed The Searetary than reverted tn the Cuban diadua- ainn and agreed with the Preaidennaennaluaiene The President eaid that we have he lath er eenrentienal weapena Seeretary MeElrey painted eat that naelear aeapena were net aeefal fer fighting It ran generally agreed that the Latin American area offered nn problem The Preeident said what he needed nae a meeting er the minda and net fixed elegant He eaid all agreed that ene eheald ate a eledge hammer to drive taeke Secretary MeElrey eaid that the preheat language edited him and that any ehahgee teald he mieiaterpreted tn edit the preteneeptiene of various peeple He aaid that unleaa a pelier ehange te he madel we ahnald net ahange the language Searetaryudatea TDP SEGHET bJ -Hu md El aerate Q i i It HHTIDML HHEHWIEE By Ha hitde_iji _ TGP BEDRET Seeretary Gates painted eat that a reel peliep change is being urged He weuld net say that the State Department was urging a new peliep ehange but same peeple nere e The President then reviewed the hietery er the depleyment er nnelear weapens te Anariean erase atread He felt that ne large ferses eheuld he deplepsd eithaut nuelear weapens Secretary herter stated that he had as ehjettieh te this eeneiusien There was further diseassien aheat the delegatien er aatherity matter Beeretary Herter then raised the questien sheet the nen naelear eapahilitp ear eeuld have He was glad te hear what Secretary HeElrep had said that we were eentinaing te derelep hetter eenventienal eeapens The President said that perhaps same slight ehenge in wards was needed but he did net knew He repeated that farmed units must have defensive nuclear eapahilitp Beth Secretary at a meeting after the President's meeting between 1 MeElrey Hadferd DatesJI Gray and Smith Smith made it quite plain that the State Department was prepeeing a real change TUP SECRET ULuLH uii in r' - attenuating 53 U213 i HE seamless AT THE HATJGHAL TDP SECRET Eeth 'Beeretary HeElrey and Admiral Eadferd jumped in te make sure by defensive the President did net mean te rule eat weapens systems te take dun strike bases deep in thine hr Gray said that the State Department wanted te inerease ear limited war eapahility The President stated his understanding that we had a geed eenrentienal eapahility Seeretary HeElrey said that that was true in eases inrelying ranges up te 2 000 yards In the ease as 15 - ED milesl we will leek eenrentienal fire newer The President asked him if we had threwn away all er ear artillery Seeretary MeElrey indieated that this Heuld be the ease seen The President expressed seme deuht as te the sieden er this eeurse The President peinted eat that we may he eelled en fer aid by the eas he felt that with ens present day emeriean dirisien eith its eenventienal armsl it handle any Western Hemisphere prehlen e that we are in a transitional stageI painting eat that the day ef very small nnelear weapens was net very far away When ens gets down ts DE kiletep weapens the distinctien we are talking aheut new reald ne lenger hate reality Mr Gray 6 Aui i hr' NN 543 mg necmvee 6 1w 133 Ely Lil TUP -1e- Mr Grey eeid that the prepenente er peliey ehenge wented te ehenge the empheeie eemewhet eweg frem etretegie hemhing eepebility The Preeident the belief thet eur militery unite eheuld he given geed treining in eenventienel weepene He eteted thet it hed tehen yeere fer the te eheelete he eheuld ergeniee eur te nee the weepene we here There wee mere er the delegetien prehleme Seeretery Herter then reed eh emeerpt frem the Statement ei Fereign JE eMe r Hequiremente which thet neeleer weepene eheuld he need in limited heetilitiee but enly ee leet The Preeident the epinien thet State wee perhepe He elee felt thet the metter ef were ehengee in Beeie Peliey wee net immertent The queetien wee reieed ee tn the er limited war in Europe Mr Greg euggeeted thet there wee eeme epinien in the htete Depertment thet thie wee Seeretery Herter eeid gee thet enlyt hr Eurph hed eeid thet he theught there eeuld be limited heetilitiee ever Berlin with the metter TOP SECRET -11 matter being referred to the UH The Precident acid that that weuld enly he a harreem brawl There nae then acne diecuaeicn aa te whether there ccald he a limited war with china Secretary Gatee then eaid peeple were cenaerned that the emphaaia an atrategic retaliatary farcee weuld eat rand far and interact in canvalticnal aeapena Admiral Hadrerd painted eat that never hercre in peace time did we have each large farcee fer Latin America type at eperatiana The Preeident painted cat that if the Seaiete wanted ta take Eurape they Heuld have te hlaet eat peeitiena with nuclear waapena in which event the nice cf ear farcee there weuld net make much difference Secretary McElray eaid that hie with the military ccmmandere indicated that they faared that nuclear weapene weuld net he aaed The Preeident then gave an analogy of the nae cf a pietel in retaliaticn fer an attack by a headlam in the etreet ne it jaetiried in aaing the pietel if cne'e life in really endangered hat act if the circnnetancee indicate that nc each danger eniete The Preaident TDF SEGHET 1f Remain N Lq jg -E sameness AT THE norm men-wee 3 ra i TDP SEBRET -12i ll The President said we oannot organize now for the situations that may take plaee in 1965 He should go carefully and wisely we should try to use the necessary degree of foroe without starting a war Seeretary Herter said that he agreed that if it was essential we should use nuelear weapons He pointed out however how fearful world opinion was of any use or nuelesr weapons The President expressed the View that world opinion was wrong The President then apeeulated that a very low yield nuelear weapon would not be worth its seat and that if we used nuelear weapons we should use large enough ones to do the Job Mr Smith then pointed out that one matter had not been mentioned All or our assumptions about the use of nuelear weapons in limited war start with the proposition that they will not be used against us Admiral Hadrord and Secretary HeElroy denied this with some heat It was pointed out that the limited war study of 1958 had made this assump tion and that the Joint Chiefs had refused to study limited war with the State Department on any other basis 1 Mr Gordon Gray eonfirmed aoeuraey of this Admiral TOP SEGHET -51 43 th l I Author-Ill - gig $3 REWED AT THE inf-WES In 3 3 tun- 1 WW I 1 TDP SEGEET -13- Hedrerd eeid the military eetuelly were prepared fer tee way er nueleer weepene in limited war There wee eeme eteut the 1955 end no eleer eenelueien ee te their validity Certainly see weuhi have te he kept en a eemplete alert during any eueh period The meeting then hreke up witheut e113 eenelueien                     National Security Archive    Suite 701  Gelman Library  The George Washington University    2130 H Street  NW  Washington  D C  20037    Phone  202 994‐7000  Fax  202 994‐7005  nsarchiv@gwu edu