From the One-on-One Conversation of M S Gorbachev with H Kohl February 10 1990 Present at the conversation from the German side were H Teltschik from the Soviet side A S Chernyaev M S Gorbachev I am pleased to welcome you Mr Federal Chancellor It is very good that you came to Moscow In times like these we need to be constantly in touch Events are developing dynamically so there is a lot to talk about I often remember our conversations in Bonn last summer Back then we were discussing certain issues but could not imagine they would need to be resolved in such a short time Ideas that at the time seemed like daydreams have come down to earth they became objective reality of primary importance It is very good that since our last meeting we have actively remained in touch exchanged messages talked on the phone This helped us to feel and understand each other better These are complex times to be sure Here in the Soviet Union we keep ourselves on our toes so we do not as they say make a mess of things Of course we need restraint and balance not only in domestic affairs but in foreign policy as well You are the guest you have the floor H Kohl Thank you for the warm welcome for the greetings Our meeting today is overdue the conversation will be very important M S Gorbachev I agree H Kohl I also recall with satisfaction our meetings and talks in Bonn and I connect today's conversation with them Last summer we indeed had a very thorough and serious conversation I would like to go off those conversations and speak with you just as sincerely and openly We believe that NATO should not expand its scope We have to find a reasonable resolution I correctly understand the security interests of the Soviet Union and I realize that you Mr General Secretary and the Soviet leadership will have to clearly explain what is happening to the Soviet people It is one thing when we are talking but it is different when ordinary people talk They remember the fate of their fathers and brothers This is quite a normal phenomenon However if we do not act the situation will become critical We have to avoid this We are ready to take action together with our partners neighbors and friends Your statement that one who comes too late is punished by history is very popular with us We are prepared to follow this M S Gorbachev Thank you for your thoughts I have a few questions It seems on the practical level you are facing the question of economic stabilization of the GDR H Kohl The GDR needs a different economic system M S Gorbachev When it comes to the monetary union is there any timeframe under consideration H Kohl I cannot answer this question for the following reason If I had been asked this in late December I would have said that such a transition would take several years That would be reasonable it is what the economists say But no one is asking me right now People are deciding everything with their feet Chaos is breaking out A reaction is likely follow in a few weeks maybe months M S Gorbachev So immediately after the election H Kohl Quite possibly I also do not want to rush However I already mentioned the appeal of the East Berlin magistrate to the senate of West Berlin Next week the mayor of West Berlin will come to me and say that we have to pay And I cannot refuse him The situation is such that people are doing whatever they please But we need economic order That was the crux of my famous Ten Points They stipulated point by point solutions to questions of creating a contractual community M S Gorbachev I did not understand your reasoning about concluding a new treaty to settle finally the issue of borders Are the borders not fixed Or do I have an inaccurate translation H Kohl Yes the question of borders was settled in the Moscow and Warsaw Agreements But these agreements were concluded with the FRG Therefore we are talking about confirming what was said in these agreements If the GDR and the FRG unify the new German parliament will have to confirm the provisions of these treaties H Kohl I would like to propose the following If the unification process accelerates after the elections we will need to discuss the issues of economic relations promptly and in a confidential atmosphere We do not want the Soviet side to have a lack of confidence that commitments to the Soviet Union will not be fulfilled If things go as expected then some of your partners in the GDR will disappear This can cause misunderstandings which should be avoided Therefore I propose to discuss in a quiet and confidential environment without any publicity M S Gorbachev I told Modrow and I will tell you if the processes develop rapidly economic problems will arise before the question of a federation or confederation does You are right what is an economy without currency During the time when a major restructuring of economic relations between the FRG and GDR takes place I told Modrow it is important not to destroy but to enrich our partnership But I understand that the burden of GDR's problems will fall on the shoulders of the Federal Chancellor We are ready to participate in creating associations and joint ventures that will arise on the territory of the GDR This set of questions fits into the historical relations between Germany and Russia We can enrich what we have instead of losing it But I am getting to the most important part Here everything must be weighed and considered The core is still the military component It plays a decisive role in determining the European and world balance You touched upon this subject Our formula includes - the threat of war should not come from German soil the post-war borders should be inviolable And the third point - Germany's territory should not be used by external forces The question arises what status should united Germany have I know the Chancellor does not accept neutrality They say it would humiliate the German people Perhaps it seems unfair to the current generation given this generation's contribution to European and world development It is as if we were disregarding this generation This is not normal you cannot do this in politics Yet I see a united Germany outside military formations with sufficient national armed forces for defense I do not know whether this status is called independence or nonalignment India China - these are countries with such a status It does not humiliate them Why should such a status humiliate Germans It is not neutrality It is power and not just European but global We should play around with this idea weigh it from various points of view It would not be serious if one part of the state was in NATO and the other in the WTO Somewhere on one side of the river you have one set of troops and across the river another set of troops Let us play around with this idea Mr Federal Chancellor They say what is NATO without the FRG But we could also ask what is the WTO without the GDR This is a serious question There should be no divergence in military matters They say NATO will fall apart without the FRG But it would be the end of the WTO without the GDR too If we agree about the main things it is important that we are in accord here as well H Kohl It is not the same thing One only has to look at the map M S Gorbachev If we unilaterally withdraw all troops from the GDR you won't be able to hold on to NATO either We need reasonable solutions that do not poison the atmosphere in our relations In any case I think this part of the conversation should not be made public Let us say that we had a fruitful conversation on a wide range of issues of European and world development and that this exchange of opinions will continue H Kohl This is very important Of course we have to come to some sort of agreement The U S should not be on the sidelines in this matter M S Gorbachev Certainly Yesterday I spoke with Secretary of State Baker He said that after the elections representatives of the two German states and four powers could meet and talk in order to add validity to the process while not including others in the conversation yet H Kohl I like this idea very much However for the sake of clarity I would like to state very clearly that we do not accept a separate conference of the four powers M S Gorbachev Nothing will be decided without you H Kohl The two German states or if things develop quickly the one German state has to be at the table with the four powers It would be very good if this table was in Germany M S Gorbachev It is quite possible H Kohl It would be important to us for psychological reasons M S Gorbachev The question is where Two legs of the table on one side of the border and two on the other H Kohl Such a meeting would be very important and the decisions made there should suit the USSR the U S and the FRG Source Mikhail Gorbachev i germanskii vopros ed by Alexander Galkin and Anatoly Chernyaev Moscow Ves Mir 2006 pp 339-355 Translated by Anna Melyakova for the National Security Archive                     National Security Archive    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