s gCRE'f' SENSITlVE f THE WH ITE HOUSE MEMCON WASHINGTON MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION SUBJECT Meeting with Helmut Kohl Chancellor of the Federal RepUblic of Germany U PARTICIPANTS The President James A Baker Secretary of State Brent Scowcroft Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Robert Blackwill Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Notetaker Helmut Kohl Chancellor Horst Teltschik Security Adviser to the Chancellor Walter Neuer Head of Chancellor's Office Uwe Kaestner Deputy Security Adviser to the Chancellor for East-West Issues DATE TIME AND PLACE February 24 1990 2 37 - 4 50pm EST Camp David - First Meeting Chancellor Kohl I have a couple of items I'd like to discuss with you First I want to thank you for inviting me here Second I want to thank you for all your signs of friendship since you became President The letter you wrote to me before I went to Moscow will go down in history as an important document in the history of US-German relations And we will not forget what Secretary Baker did for me in Moscow briefing me on his talks with Gorbachev before I saw him It was decisive GermanAmerican friendship is stronger now than it has ever been in the postwar period It is vital This is not just true in a military sense i If things go well we will have enormous changes occurring in Europe even if Gorbachev falls His successor will have to pursue similar policies This is an obligatory development in the Soviet Union I told Gorbachev that you cannot go back to Stalin There will be no Tiananmen Square in Europe I told him not in Dresden Budapest or Warsaw The consequences of -such an event would be beyond comprehension Hitler killed people who listened to radio broadcasts but now German TV programs can be seen in Kiev The world has changed beyond recognition and mass communication has been an important cause of these changes I told Rakowski the former Prime Minister of Poland he and the 5ECR SENSITlVE Declassify on OADR DECLASSIFIED PER E G 12958 AS AMENDED e l2-lf fO'oet ECRE SENSITIVE Communists would be finished when the Pope visited his country These changes are the reality in which we live The situation of renewal will continue to exist in Poland in Czechoslovakia in Hungary and a little later in Bulgaria and Romania So in Europe there is this new dimension In two years we will have the Single EC internal market and the consequences will be dramatic There will be an increased demand inside the Community to work for European unity even faster so that the EC keeps up with the unification of the two German states I have always pushed for European unity Now except for Margaret Thatcher all the EC leaders agree with me By the time of the next election for the European Parliament in 1994 we will have to delegate more authority to European institutions than is now expected This is because of German unification People are saying that when Germany is 80 million strong the Germans must be integrated into Europe I am happy about this These developments will have a major impact on our monetary policy The United States and the EC if we are wise must work closely together The relationship between the Community and the US is of the greatest importance and this will be especially true in the 1990s The EFTA countries and the states of Eastern Europe will probably become members of the EC during the 1990s Then there will be movement toward what Francois Mitterrand calls a confederation of Europe It is a system that will create itself but it will do so in close cooperation with the United States $ Geographically we are in the center We will have 80 million people Economically we will be number one So we do have lots of psychological problems to contend with There are old fears that derive from history we must take these fears seriously We must be forthcoming in our relations with our neighbors Others must see that Germans are the most European Europeans Our relations with the French are particularly important It is important for Paris that they have something we don't have and that something is nuc ear weapons US-German relations must remain strong That will help reduce fears in Europe We in Germany need a good relationship with the US for many reasons We must get out of an inward-looking spirit because people fear not our military but our economic strength The US is slightly ahead of us in R D we are even with Japan This also creates fears If I can sum up the net of US-German relations must be woven as tightly as possible This includes exchanges in universities firms and the GermanAmerican youth council $ Now turning to the subject of German unity the developments are so dramatic I can hardly believe it Communism in the German SgGRE SENSITIVE 6C SENSITIVE Democratic Republic has collapsed like a house of cards It looked like a giant but it was hollow We now are trying to stabilize the situation so one does have time to search for reasoned approaches My ten-point program of last November has been swept away $ The psychological situation in the GDR was OK until Christmas but the Modrow government collapsed in January Let me give you two examples Thousands of people are running away every day and Modrow doesn't know how to create confidence 350 000 people came to the FRG and 200 000 of them are less than 30 years old Their numbers included dentists physicists engineers and skilled workers Between January 1 and today an entire city's worth of people left the GDR In seven weeks the total has been over 100 000 We must find a way to persuade people to stay Productivity in the East is in sharp decline Everyone wants to be paid in Deutsche Marks Shortages are increasing The corruption trials of the former GDR officials are having disastrous consequences Of the 15 most important officials in the GDR a year ago 10 are in prison That used to be the leadership of the GDR In the rest of the country the corruption is just as bad $ Three weeks ago the situation was such that I concluded that we had to do something quite different We had to change our program So now we need monetary union Marty Feldstein says we are crazy Textbooks don't help they don't have answers for problems like this The GDR election will be in three weeks The new parliament will make decisions fast They may want us to put money into their state enterprises We will say no We are now spending 6 billion DM for health but that is different from spending money on industrial development Their telephone system doesn't work the railroads are a disaster and the environment is a mess including two dangerous nuclear reactors -- worse than the design of the one at Chernobyl The situation is just disastrous So I must act quickly I must insist they move to a market economy immediately after the elections We will have to finance old age pensions and social security for the unemployed It all looks pretty devastating But I believe if the GDR has a market has decent working conditions it will be a prosperous area in 3 to 5 years And the European Community will benefit from this This will happen because the East Germans are good people this is the old industrial area of Germany The GDR will not be a Bantustan There are about 5 000 enterprises in the FRG that are ready to go into the GDR This economic angle is the most pressing aspect of my problems g Secretary Baker On monetary union what are your plans Chancellor Kohl It must be done fast BCRE SENSITIVE All improvement $ SC SENSITIVE presupposes currency conversion This means we must put the monetary system under the Bundesbank There are no private banks now in the GDR but this can be dealt with This is a real opportunity for the FRG as well We are getting fat and lazy Now there is some adventure in our national lives The prospect of unification is energizing my own party This weekend 2 000 CDU members were in the GDR engaging in political activity In 1948 when I was 18 there was the same kind of fresh mood in the country Church life in the GDR too is more intense So there are some good things coming from the GDR So I hope we can get monetary union completed soon $ In the old days the East German state was divided into Laender Ulbricht abolished this That was a major mistake People there want to bring back the five laender We want to retain a federal system The French and the Poles want us to remain this way too We need to work on two tracks both of which are equally important 1 domestic German matters and 2 dealing with our neighbors We need to intensify integration in the EC and promote political integration to reduce European fears $ Now concerning external problems The border question is not serious Among friends I can be honest In the FRG today 8590% of the population are in favor of the Oder-Neisse border The vast majority knows that this will be the border The man who built Camp David Mr Roosevelt will never be popular in Germany The Poles were pushed west and the Germans were expelled This was a reaction to Nazi crimes but the Germans who were affected were innocent -- this was 12 to 14 million people One-third of the 1937 Reich was cut off In 1945 2 million German civilians were killed fleeing from Eastern Europe We have to deal with this psychological problem in my country $ The final resolution of the border question people thought in the 1970s would come through a peace treaty I don't want a peace treaty regarding Germany It would not be a good idea 110 countries were at war with Germany in May 1945 The issue is to reassure the Poles about the 1 000 kilometer border They must be assured they are safe The Four Powers for instance must playa crucial role We will be uniting three parts the -FRG the GDR and Berlin You are involved legally The Poles should realize that binding decisions must come by a treaty ratified by an all-German parliament in an all-German state I in the FRG cannot act for a united Germany But we need to work to meet the expectations of the Poles The border isn't a problem Rather the problem is that the Poles may demand reparations I would find that unacceptable We have already paid 150 billion DM to Poland Israel and individuals We won't pay more fifty years after the war $ Secretary Baker sgCRE SENSITIVE Does Mazowiecki want reparations $ SEc SENSITlVE Chancellor Kohl Yes or at least people around him do We forgave some loans but I can't do that every year This brings me to the Two Plus Four It will be crucial for us to proceed as follows The US and Germany will cooperate as closely as possible We must agree on what we want Then-we will talk with our partners including the Soviet Union I am absolutely opposed to expanding the Two Plus Four Once you open it up you can't draw the line $ I will say something a little dangerous which can be difficult to manage If we coordinate between the US and the FRG we might have to solve this issue vis a vis Poland not through participation but through consultation to relieve the psychological strain The Poles are unique They are the only ones who have a border problem We have to give thought about how to do that $ I know you have many Polish-Americans in your country I'd like to help Mazowiecki but Two Plus Five is not doable We should stick with Two Plus Four but think about a consultative mechanism for Poland Gorbachev is not interested in the OderNeisse issue he just doesn't want Poland to open up the issue of its eastern border There are old Polish cities in the USSR Mitterrand said last week it's a shame these borders exist but he added they are realities This causes me problems at home but I will have to deal with it We need to deal with the psychological problems of Poland and of the Germans too The SPD will use this issue against me not out of love for Poland but out of lack of love for me In 1950 the GDR recognized the Polish border but explicitly made Poland give up any claim for reparations from Germany Now the Poles pretend they didn't do that border no reparations yes as seen from Warsaw My motives are good We need to find a sensible solution I hope an all-German parliament will be convened next year and will settle it Z General Scowcroft What sort of timeframe do you have in mind for addressing the border issue $ Chancellor Kohl We should finish the Two Plus Four this year before the CSCE Summit $ Secretary Baker If the Two Plus Four complete their work it will come up at the CSCE Summit $ Chancellor Kohl When the Two PluS Four talks are concluded the CSCE would bless whatever is concluded 2 Secretary Baker ECRfl SENSITlVE Exactly 2 SE6-R-E r SECRET SENSITIVE Chancellor Kohl But we need a psychologically attractive solution for Poland We have to keep thinking A way can be found 7 Germany doesn t want neutrality in any way This would be a deadly decision There is no serious interest in it A united Germany will be a member of NATO One needs a precise definition for Germany's NATO membership however We will also need a transition period NATO units including Bundeswehr forces dedicated to NATO cannot be stationed on East German soil $ It wouldn't work to have the Soviet group of forces in East Germany remain there indefinitely because it would compromise German sovereignty And we have to decide what we will do about the East German New People's Army with its 200 000 soldiers And if West Germany is a member of NATO should it be done in the way we are handling France What about German military integration of the new Germany Is this a good idea But we do not want any special status for all of Germany as occurred after 1918 That is why NATO is so important $ Concerning nuclear cooperation we must think about what will happen with nuclear artillery Lance and the Follow-On-To-Lance FOTL What will your Congress say about FOTL And how will these weapons be seen in Eastern Europe But we must remain in NATO and US forces must remain in Europe $ The President I would like to make a few general comments U We are going to stay involved in Europe We have some pressure here to lower the level of US troops and defense spending We are being asked who is the enemy The enemy is unpredictability apathy and destabilization But we will stay in Europe It will be a tough fight As for FOTL FOTL is dead as a doornail $ Chancellor Kohl We will be getting into a nuclear discussion well before 1992 It will be an election issue this year On the Lance business I want to avoid the impression that the US caved in to public opinion in Europe $ The President program $ Congress is very unlikely to fund the FOTL The concept of Germany being in NATO is absolutely crucial I hate to think of another France in NATO We need full participation for Germany in NATO It will be stabilizing for Europe We will continue to keep US troops in Germany and in Europe despite the pressure $ I'm concerned when I hear the Polish Prime Minister talk about keeping Soviet troops in Eastern Europe I'm not enthralled when GBP GRE SENSITIVE SECRET SENSITIVE I hear Poland might want the Soviets to stay because of the issue of the Polish-German border I don't like that and I don't want to accept that f$ We want to playa key role with you in all of this You know and I know your European neighbors are nervous about this Sometimes I forget to consult But you and I must take care to consult with our smaller NATO partners c g Chancellor Kohl Yes The President Genscher made this statement to the Italians in Ottawa that You're not in the game This offended Italy and some of the other guys I will try to be sensitive to their concerns Genscher must be sensitive too I'm not suggesting that you haven't been Chancellor Kohl I totally agree I wasn't in Ottawa but I had to take some of the consequences of Genscher's act And I didn't like it It was totally unnecessary It's not my style either There are domestic political reasons for this Genscher is having trouble with his party un Everyone is confused but me I'm doing OK but the other parties are in disarray including the FDP As for the Ottawa matter I realize of course that I have to do a master resuscitation with Andreotti and the others I'll do the same thing with Francois Mitterrand at some time He has been holding firm Most of the French people are on our side but the political class is against us But we have to keep working the problem Copenhagen and Norway are also hard cases The Netherlands and the UK are also problems Margaret Thatcher I can't do anything about her I can't understand her The Empire declined fighting Germany -- she thinks the UK paid this enormous price and here comes Germany again The President We don't look at it that way We don't fear the ghosts of the past Margaret does But you and we must bend over backwards to consult 'recognizing our unique role in history I called Margaret today just to listen to her which I did for an hour $ Chancellor Kohl In the FRG there is anger among Germans because we have been reliable partners for over 40 years Why doesn't that help Logic doesn't help The President The United States can and will help When you say Germany will be staylf - n NATO with full membership that helps Margaret told me today that everyone expects German unity although six months ago she felt differently But she said everyone is worried about the uncertainties Germany being fully SEGl1 I iT SENSITIVE SEGRE SENSITIVE involved in NATO helps $ We don't support the idea of Polish reparations On the Polish border it has cycled over here as an issue I know you have political problems but the more you can do on this the better it will be $ We feel that US nuclear weapons are an essential part of the US military presence in Germany If US nuclear forces are withdrawn from Germany I don't see how we can persuade any other ally on the continent to retain these weapons Because there is uncertainty we need a nuclear presence in Germany Our public sees the nuclear deterrent as the protection for our boys I worry that if we lose nuclear weapons domestic support for US troops would erode 21 On the Two Plus Four we don't want the Soviets to use this mechanism as an instrument to force you to create the Germany they might want I am concerned that the Two Plus Four not get in the way of your dialogue with the GDR on the nature of unification I worry that too early an engagement in Two Plus Four talks will stimulate the Soviets to interfere I told Margaret that the Two Plus Four should focus on giving up Four Power rights and responsibilities for Germany as a whole and for Berlin I would hate to see the Two Plus Four get involved in the issue of Germany's full membership in NATO Chancellor Kohl Gorbachev will have his views on NATO Secretary Baker I believe Gorbachev and Shevardnadze believe US forces are a stabilizing presence The Soviets haven't yet decided on their final position on Germany and NATO The President Full German membership is linked to our ability to sustain US troops in Europe You must understand that $ Chancellor Kohl I like that very much I want America in Europe and not only i s military presence I want to eradicate the concept of a Fortress Europe Hundreds of steps are required but we must make Fortress Europe an impossibility Z Secretary Baker NATO is the raison d'etre for keeping US forces in Europe If the Soviets want the US in Europe they have to accept NATO We couldn't have US forces in Europe on the soil of a non-full member of NATO un Chancellor Kohl The Soviets are negotiating up as a matter of cash They need money $ But this may end The President On US-Soviet relations we want to see Gorbachev succeed We want a successful US-Soviet Summit which will give SEC SENSITIVE SgGRE SENSITIVE him a boost at home We want a CFE agreement signed Summit A START accord this year yn A CSCE Having said that the Soviets are not in a position to dictate Germany's relationship with NATO What worries me is talk that Germany must not stay in NATO To hell with that We prevailed and they didn't We can't let the Soviets clutch victory from the jaws of defeat jt We have weird thinking in our Congress today ideas like this peace dividend We can't do that in these uncertain times We can't let the Polish Prime Minister dictate how many Soviets stay We have to stay together and work things out Chancellor Kohl The Soviets could stay in Germany for a limited time if that could be a solution if the time is limited But it must not be for an extended period $ The President Just so we don't say All the Soviets must leave so all the US troops must leave Germany too un Chancellor Kohl No As I said there is a difference between being 6000 kilometers away and being 600 kilometers away It is a ten-to-one difference You must stay even if the Soviets leave Germany The President On a CSCE Summit I have agreed to participate in a CSCE Summit this year if we can complete a CFE treaty that can be signed at the meeting The Summit should review how we are doing in the three CSCE baskets I hope that the Summit will endorse new CSCE guidelines for the conduct of free elections to help us protect the emergence of real democracy in Eastern Europe $ While this CSCE Summit may acknowledge in some way the activities of the Two Plus Four we do not want the CSCE Summit to be centered on Germany or to be a meeting which tries to undermine Germany's full membership in NATO Finally we need to try to strengthen the CSCE process But I'm sure you agree with me that the CSCE cannot replace NATO as the 'core of the West's deter ent strategy in Europe and as the fundamental justification for U S troops in Europe If that happens we will have a real problem $ Chancellor Kohl I don't want the discussion of the German problem Summit And you will make lots of US-Soviet Summit You can work on CSCE Summit to be a forum for But Gorbachev needs a CSCE progress in arms control at a progress in the three baskets 7 Secretary Baker 6ECRE sENSITIVE What else should we discuss How about SgCRE SENSITIVE procedural next steps on the Two Plus Four process The President And domestic politics in Germany We support you because of your principles and because we have a big stake in this We feel comfortable with you at the wheel $ Chancellor Kohl We will stick to two tracks a domestic German track and an international track It is important that you continue US-Soviet disarmament so that no one can say the German issue is slowing progress in arms control I will push EC integration with all my weight There will be a special EC Summit on the last Saturday in April We need as many consultations as possible We need to talk frankly with the Soviets It would be good for the US to talk to the Soviets outside of the Two Plus Four about German membership in NATO That way the Soviets will understand that there is total US-FRG agreement without any games The Soviets may be more willing to tell you their real price tag for their agreement Secretary Baker It is important that we send strong public signals about continued full German membership in NATO un Chancellor Kohl Of course We are in complete agreement There will be concerns for the Soviets if Germany remains in NATO for their security And they will want to get something in return 7 The President You've got deep pockets r Chancellor Kohl Now as to the Two Plus Four we have to work very closely together After the elections we will keep you informed about developments with the two Germanys The Soviets will be likely to influence the new GDR government We must coordinate every step along with the UK and France On domestic developments the mood of people in the FRG is in favor of unification but they are afraid of the sacrifices required These won't be major sacrifices in a historical sense but people are worrying We now pay 22 billion DM to subsidize Berlin and 30 billion DM in tax privileges for Berlin per year _These costs will disappear If I add up the balance sheet after 10 years then we will be making money Now on the political situation in the GDR Someone who lives in Leipzig has to be 79 years old to have participated in free elections before They would have been 21 years old in November 1932 That says all there is to say In East Berlin 32 000 people are employed in State Security This has left an impact has shaped the people There is no middle class There are no wealthy people The social structure is warped It will take some time It is a peasant and worker state All of a sudden a market economy will be introduced ug BCRE SENSITIVE SeCRET SENSITIVE 11 8-E6REr The first election won't be typical It will take two or three elections before things take on a clearer shape I want this March 18 election then local elections in May then the Land elections in the GDR then a federal election in December and then -- next year -- all-German elections We had the same situation in 1946-49 If I can win this year in the FRG election I can win next year in the all-German election This will give me time If I postpone elections I would no longer be in charge $ The GDR's new government will have to make many unpleasant decisions about inefficient industries the consequences of introducing supply and demand and on the environment They will have to make these decisions They will have to begin being real politicians $ Secretary Baker $ There would be all-German elections in 1991 Chancellor Kohl If I have any influence Secretary Baker What if the laender try to join the FRG under Article 23 Will that force you to move the elections up Chancellor Kohl No I want a graduated strategy from successful monetary union to the federal elections in December 1990 to all-German elections in 1991 I want to involve GDR politicians in the future of a united Germany The SPD in the GDR is the strongest party It is a region where that party has had long-time historical strength This will stir up some emotion Then there are the so-called conservative parties -- the former Liberals the former Christian Democrats People remember that they cooperated with the SED After the first elections time will be needed Only two people are important in the GDR elections Willy Brandt who is 75 years old and myself I'll have six campaign appearances in the GDR Hundreds of thousands of young people come to my rallies But whatever happens in tne election the new GDR government will have to face its responsibilities We will need time before allGerman elections Z The President What do your political opponents in the FRG say about your handling of German unification Chancellor Kohl They criticize me for not putting enough money into the GDR I'll do that after March 18 People will stay It's the same home only when they have cold cash in their hand problem Gorbachev has The President Do you think your German domestic political SBC SENSITIVE 8ECRGBP SENSITIVE opponents will try to oppose full German membership in NATO and US troops in Germany 7 Chancellor Kohl As far as NATO is concerned everyone is in favor of full membership Some in the SPD discuss German membership in NATO along French lines I don't think it will be a big issue On US troops there may be more varied opinions Worse still in the next two months FOTL and nuclear artillery will be coming up in all the parties The debate will intensify The ranges of these missiles makes these systems politically untenable There must be a decision made by the US and not made under pressure The Soviets would have to remove theirs too -that would be the US proposal jj Secretary Baker September $ The President help you most We hope we will have a CFE agreement in June or What would you like us to do on FOTL What would $ Chancellor Kohl For the US President it is essential that he not give up under external pressure The question is of course to try to involve the Soviets General Scowcroft FOTL funding will be gone by May Chancellor Kohl The initiative should be yours not with Congress Couldn't one raise this with the Soviets Secretary Baker Maybe we could lump no modernization of Lance in with our position going into the SNF negotiations $ General Scowcroft modernized The Soviet systems are by and large already Chancellor Kohl There will be a debate in your Congress on this starting in four to six weeks which will instantly give us a debate in Germany $ The President We want a position that will help you and not undermine the Alliance The authority of the President is also important here General Scowcroft There are two ways we can do it 1 we can fight to keep the money in or 2 we can let you announce the cancellation for your political benefit Secretary Baker Last year's debate in the Alliance was about SNF negotiations If we could fold FOTL into SNF negotiations that might help with the Congress Chancellor Kohl SEe SENSITIVE Nuclear artillery is also a part of the SNF GBPBCRE SENSITIVE issue We must keep that in mind Secretary Baker folding in FOTL Maybe we can begin SNF negotiations this year $ Chancellor Kohl My problem is with your debate in Congress Secretary Baker There could be an announcement in the next 30 days that we will not fund FOTL in FY 91 as we wait to see what will happen in the SNF negotiations % Chancellor Kohl It would be good to make a decision soon But if you said to Congress that you might ask for a modernized Lance next year if SNF negotiations fail that would be worse for me than the present situation Mrs Thatcher talks to me in a way I wouldn't accept from anyone else She is isolating herself from her own countrymen I once told her that I was post-Churchill but she was pre-Churchill $ Secretary Baker I would like to make a comment on the Polish borders The Two Plus Four will mostly be a mechanism for consultations It can't decide issues of fundamental importance to other countries without their presence It can't be another Yalta At the press conference why can't you say that the Two Plus Four is a discussion mechanism so Poland is not a member but they would have to be involved with any issue that fundamentally affected them The Two Plus Four is primarily a consultations and discussion mechanism Many issues are only for the Germans to decide On the military status of the GDR full membership in NATO involves others but is up to a sovereign German government to decide Since the discussions affect others those other countries would be at the table when their issues are being discussed V Chancellor Kohl On nother subject I want someone to push USGerman youth exchanges They need a little more pep un - End of First Full Meeting - S C T SENSITIVE                     National Security Archive    Suite 701  Gelman Library  The George Washington University    2130 H Street  NW  Washington  D C  20037    Phone  202 994‐7000  Fax  202 994‐7005  nsarchiv@gwu edu