Gill 4i 3% if I- IOUNEIL i 313451111 - $31 75 In 5 ile b-41931974 CAT i r'u'lt lil'l bl E PARTICIPANTE ASSIFIED 5A5 I Tivz 03D A Ambassador GrahamA Mart eta IS 19% sIFICATlonAmbassador to the Republic IoIf Vletnam ER Secretary I I I I Deputy Secretary Essie-111711 to the Secretary Smyser Senior Staff Member NSC July 17 1974 12100 p m The Secretary 8' Office State Department Kissmger I am delighted to have an Ambassador who _is tough Your basic mission seems to be going well Martin The militar campaigns going well We have kept Hanoi nervous leaving therriI uncertain as to What We will do But the I that they have to fight in the first line They have done so and they have built their confidence They have fought well They have I not fought for some tactical enclosures everywhere else They-I have disrupted corridor into the Delta Even the U S IArmy in its great days would have been proud of the operation that the Sout VietnamIeSe ran into sva'y Rieng The other side can mount an offensive It Can have some successes It can take Tay Ninh or HIue but it cannot eep either KisSinger _II_I How long could they held Martin Maybe several months do not think they wouldIdo it if they cannot get you to Paris Ifor a ceas - e-fire in place Kissinger I have no intention of going to Paris Le Duc Tho I do not want an argumentative tone meet with him He cannot do anything for us I would like to reply to I have no intention to If he formally requests a meeting and gives me guarantees it would be OK TOP SECRET - XGDS vulaLnuUll'I U new ND 2 1 Eyeliitk Dana -u U Mw nm ONLY 2 Martin I agree The Paracels- affair had a political effect that was positive for 'Thieu His domestic position is firm Our friends come out and they interv1ewthe Saigon chapter of-the Worldwide Association Int'elleCtuals so they-get a different picture But I think one were' to holda vote today 80 percentof the South Vietnamese wouldnotwant to change Thieu If the elections Pansagreements we reg-held rcent' of r11y theyarre main-g Politically they are more some thanI had Kissinger j When I made the agreement I thought it might be a two-year - - CIA tells us that North Vietnam will get _2 to $1 4 billion of aid this year I compared to what South Vietnam gets They of course use their costs figures and no transportation So the figure is lower than our comparable value can ge'tan aid level here that is enough to get things going in South Vietnam ' we will have no problems 3 Kissinger - We may get $600 million Martin That is enough Dan Spiegel Humphrey's man changed his attitude when helwas out in Vietnam So do others There has been a real change in Vietnam If we get $600 million I can get $100 million from'J'apan Also perhaps something from the Federal Republic and from France The whole thing will begin to roll - In Thailand we started the economic program and finally it expanded to the point where it went on by itself We can do that in Vietnam -- 9 Kissmger I am assuming that things in Cambodia make nei vdifference on mvxae'ie w 1 A TOP ONLY - XGDS - - 3 11 7 l atom-Koo Arms- aw WM 5 rum Dae i ONLY - 3 rti'n Can you leapfrog North Vietnam and the KC and get to Sihanoulc directly If we can get him and a'few others we w0uld be in great shape like that 'idea but I can only do it if I see Sihanouk in Peking Martin Maybe you can get-David VB rues-to do it It would perhaps work ngc'ourvse ins real sense 1 035 _not matt_er No matter who controls I be able to keep troops on the Southvletnameseborder - - - - er - Then you South Vietnam is weaker now Martin lt-iismuch The AchilleS' heel is the _ec9nomy in order to pay the soldiers enough If we can get an appropriated l v rof $600 million this year I can assure you that the place will turn out alright As tor military aid we need$90tQ million if the Pentagon does not steal it-from you That is what they did last year I They now want somebody who can be responsible at DOD for Vietnam aid They wantvon Marbod I think that's like puttingla it in a chicken coop They charged things to Vietnam which have nothing to do with Vietnam like the on the_F5E's I If I get about $1 billion I will be OK One of rooks' people asked if I should have the authority to approve every ite'm- oi aid so as to have some responsible person to whOm they could turn I said that would be alright Dan Spiegel said that the publicity campaign has gone to the point where the political prisoner issue is no longer prominent on the'I-Iill Kissinger I don't mind having you testify Martin The GAO has done a report at Kennedy's specific request that could be used against us Kissinger We should not have been so defensive about some of the things that came out We do not comment in leaked documents Bob to Ingersoll But we certainly do not apologize 1 TOP SE ONLY - xoss rigf OPng ONLY II 3 Kissinger 437 ML EII JE 11km Dan I I have received very positive mail after the flurry ofI stories There was also a lot of hate mail about Kennedy It Worries me It is One of the strangest things whyI he attacks me I I have never tried to attack him - Dan Sp1egel saysI that if you want the apnronriation youI can have it Kissmger- 1 That is why I have been talking to the comm1ttee _I have got to make it personally clear K15 Singer Right I willI do so after myI_rneet1ng withI the Senate Foreign _I Re1ations Comm1ttee meeting next Tuesday 1 Martin You can have the rnoney yon want it If that is the case I win get it I Our onponents have seen that Vietnam is the hinge of our policy 30 have others Lee Kuan Yew said that we have got to get throughl976 Martin- IIcaIn-do that if yon give me the money What'I am trying to work for is a de escalatien of theIleveIl of Violence Kissinger Can we give them a tacit acceptance of a Ithir-d Vietnam 'MarItin Only if they know that it is the end of the line 11t they cannot be certain Of that I I Kissinger The people who talk about a cease-fire may have a situation like that in mind North Vietnam wanted a cease- -fire Ifor political warfare but they have not won it The time may come when they will accept a I - cease-fire for a third'Vietnam Martin We cannot have it be acknowledged It must just happen Kissinger - I am fascinated by the reaction oi the Poles and the Hungarians iMartin They still want the zone to be acknowledged We cannot do I that TOP ONLY - XGDS Top ONLY Kissinger On your appearances can you wait until after Tuesday If have that here How long can you be here As long as you want can make a lot of private lvisits to a lot fi'of people i-The want to see me All the talk shows- What shall I do I have no interest but if you think it W111 make a contributionunless we need to do it to get a p031t1ve note is no reason to begm a fight I favor one on one or small groups Iii-iMartin On the Kennedy thing 3 I have hea i d nothing If the testimony is good and aggressive it could go well -'Kissinger You have not done badly so far Martin My predictions on Kennedy have turned out correct - Kissinger Is there anything else 'we should discuss Such as Laos 01- - Thailand etc I have talked to Kintner His staff is scared of public opinion In Thailand you can have what you want if yen handle it correctly Often - we did not tell them Ingersoll We told the military but they did not pass it on Martin The military is still there and is still 'very strong They are all - _friends If you like I can see some of them when I get back As for Laos I hope Charlie Whitehouse can change his ideas There were some closing pleasantries TOP ONLY - XGDS V- tun-nt Ir 3 1 Nil Hf                     National Security Archive    Suite 701  Gelman Library  The George Washington University    2130 H Street  NW  Washington  D C  20037    Phone  202 994‐7000  Fax  202 994‐7005  nsarchiv@gwu edu