UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SPOKANE - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM et al Plaintiffs Case Number vs 2 15-cv-286-JLQ JAMES E MITCHELL and JOHN JESSEN Defendants - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Videotaped Deposition of Jose Rodriguez Washington D C Tuesday March 7 2017 10 00 a m Job No 302803 Reported by Laurie Bangart RPR CRR ACLU-RDI 6806 p 1 Page 2 1 Videotaped Deposition of 2 JOSE RODRIGUEZ 3 4 Held at the offices of 5 Blank Rome LLP 6 1825 Eye Street NW 7 Washington D C 20006 8 202 772-5815 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Taken pursuant to notice before 18 Laurie Bangart Registered Professional 19 Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter and 20 Notary public in and for the District of 21 Columbia 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 2 Page 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS 3 Gibbons P C 4 One Gateway Center 5 Newark New Jersey 07102 6 973 596-4731 7 By Lawrence S Lustberg Esq 8 llustberg@gibbonslaw com 9 Kate E Janukowicz Esq 10 kjanukowicz@gibbonslaw com 11 Daniel J McGrady Esq 12 dmcgrady@gibbonslaw com 13 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS 14 Blank Rome LLP 15 One Logan Square 16 130 North 18th Street 17 Philadelphia Pennsylvania 19103 18 215 569-5643 19 By James T Smith Esq 20 smith-jt@blankrome com 21 Ann E Querns Esq 22 aquerns@blankrome com 23 Henry F Schuelke III 24 hschuelke@blankrome com 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 3 Page 4 1 Appearances continued 2 ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3 Department of Justice 4 Civil Division Federal Programs Branch 5 20 Massachusetts Avenue NW 6 Washington D C 20530 7 202 514-1359 8 By 9 10 Timothy A Johnson Esq timothy johnson4@usdoj gov ON BEHALF OF THE WITNESS 11 Hogan Lovells US LLP 12 555 Thirteenth Street NW 13 Washington D C 20004 14 202 637-5600 15 By Robert S Bennett Esq 16 robert bennett@hoganlovells com 17 Brooks M Hanner Esq 18 brooks hanner@hoganlovells com 19 David J Unruh Esq 20 david unruh@hoganlovells com 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 4 Page 5 1 Appearances continued 2 ALSO PRESENT 3 Jason Fifield Videographer 4 Hina Shamsi ACLU Foundation 5 Dror Ladin ACLU 6 Megan Beckman CIA 7 Heather Walcott CIA 8 Cody Smith CIA 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 5 Page 6 1 EXAMINATION INDEX 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MR LUSTBERG 4 EXAMINATION BY MR JAMES SMITH 13 224 144 249 5 6 7 8 9 E X H I B I T S 10 EXHIBIT 11 Exhibit G-1 Classification Guidance 000022 11 12 Exhibit 36 Declaration of Jose Rodriguez 15 13 Exhibit 37 Excerpts from the book Hard 14 15 Measures by Jose Rodriguez Exhibit 38 16 17 Exhibit 39 001760 through 001765 Exhibit 40 Abdullah 23 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 6 118 138 Cable dated March 19 2004 Bates 001542 through 001544 Exhibit 42 70 August 17 2008 Memorandum for 21 Exhibit 41 35 Cable no date Bates labeled Record regarding Suleiman 24 Cable dated January 31 2003 20 22 PAGE Bates 001170 through 001174 18 19 DESCRIPTION 187 Cable dated November 2002 Bates 001061 through 001063 194 Page 7 1 Exhibits continued 2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION 3 Exhibit 43 Cable no date Bates labeled 4 5 001496 through 001500 Exhibit 44 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 7 PAGE 207 Document Bates labeled 001551 through 001587 226 Page 8 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER We are now on 3 the record This begins videotape number 1 4 in the deposition of Jose Rodriguez in the 5 matter of Salim versus James Elmer Mitchell 6 and John Bruce Jessen in the U S District 7 Court for the Eastern District of Washington 8 at Spokane docket number 2 15-CV-286-JLP 9 Today is Tuesday March 7 2017 10 The time is 10 10 a m 11 being taken at Blank Rome in Washington D C 12 at the request of Gibbons P C 13 Fifield the videographer with Magna Legal 14 Services and the court reporter is Laurie 15 Bangart of Magna Legal Services 16 This deposition is I'm Jason Will counsel and all parties 17 present state their appearance and who they 18 represent 19 MR LUSTBERG We'll start with 20 plaintiffs 21 Gibbons P C on behalf of plaintiffs 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 8 Lawrence S Lustberg from MS JANUKOWICZ Kate Janukowicz of Gibbons P C on behalf of plaintiffs MS SHAMSI Hina Shamsi the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of Page 9 1 the plaintiffs 2 MR LADIN Dror Ladin the 3 American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of 4 plaintiffs 5 6 MR MCGRADY Daniel McGrady Gibbons P C on behalf of plaintiffs 7 MR FREY 8 P C on behalf of plaintiffs 9 10 MR JAMES SMITH MR SCHUELKE MS QUERNS Ann Querns on behalf of the defendants 15 16 Hank Schuelke on behalf of Drs Mitchell and Jessen 13 14 Jim Smith on behalf of the defendants 11 12 Avram Frey of Gibbons MR LUSTBERG Why don't we do the government 17 MR JOHNSON Jim Johnson with the 18 Department of Justice on behalf of the United 19 States 20 MR CODY SMITH Cody Smith of the 21 CIA on behalf of the government 22 MS WALCOTT 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 9 Heather Walcott CIA on behalf of the government MS BECKMAN Megan Beckman CIA on behalf of the government Page 10 1 MR BENNETT 2 of the witness Jose Rodriguez 3 MR HANNER 4 Brooks Hanner on behalf of Mr Rodriguez 5 6 Bob Bennett on behalf MR UNRUH David Unruh on behalf of Mr Rodriguez 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 8 reporter please swear in the witness 9 Would the court Witness duly sworn 10 MR LUSTBERG Before we begin 11 Mr Johnson has a statement on behalf of the 12 government 13 14 MR JOHNSON Yes Thank you everyone and good morning 15 As mentioned I'm Timothy Johnson 16 with the Department of Justice 17 representing the United States government in 18 connection with this case 19 here today are Cody Smith and Heather 20 Walcott attorneys with the CIA Office of 21 General Counsel and Megan Beckman a 22 paralegal at the CIA Office of General 23 Counsel 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 10 I'm As noted with me Although the United States government is not a party in this case we're Page 11 1 here today to protect the interests of the 2 United States that may be implicated by 3 today's deposition of Mr Jose Rodriguez 4 understand the questions in this deposition 5 will cover topics related to his career with 6 the CIA 7 We Given the sensitive nature of 8 Mr Rodriguez's positions and the information 9 he acquired in those positions we're here 10 today to ensure that no classified protected 11 or privileged information is disclosed 12 To guide the witness and parties in 13 this deposition the government has provided 14 them with the Classification Guidance from 15 the CIA which we have marked as Government 16 Exhibit G-1 for the record 17 Exhibit G-1 was marked for 18 identification 19 MR JOHNSON This CIA Guidance was 20 previously produced in this litigation on 21 May 20 2016 and is marked as US Bates 22 number 22 through 24 23 categories of information about the CIA's 24 previous Detention and Interrogation Program 25 that remain classified as well as a list of ACLU-RDI 6806 p 11 It provides a list of Page 12 1 categories of information that are now 2 unclassified 3 I'd like to now issue a continuing 4 instruction on behalf of the government to 5 Mr Rodriguez that consistent with his 6 nondisclosure agreement with the government 7 he not answer any question with information 8 identified as classified in the CIA 9 Classification Guidance marked as Government 10 Exhibit 1 or that is otherwise protected or 11 privileged by the government 12 The United States also reserves its 13 right to object to any question posed to 14 Mr Rodriguez that would tend to call for the 15 disclosure of classified protected or 16 privileged government information and to 17 specifically instruct Mr Rodriguez not to 18 answer any such questions 19 With these caveats the United 20 States government has no objection to the 21 deposition proceeding 22 MR LUSTBERG 23 Mr Johnson 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 12 Thank you Page 13 1 JOSE RODRIGUEZ 2 having been first duly sworn testified 3 upon his oath as follows 4 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS BY MR LUSTBERG 6 Q Good morning Mr Rodriguez As I said 7 my name is Larry Lustberg I represent the 8 plaintiffs in this matter I'll be asking you 9 questions today 10 11 Sir have you ever been in a civil deposition before 12 A Never have 13 Q Okay so I'm going to just give you some 14 basic instructions with regard to this If you 15 have any questions about them or anything else 16 please stop me 17 A Okay 18 Q You have been sworn to tell the truth 19 and that oath is just the same as if you were in a 20 court of law 21 Do you understand that 22 A I understand that 23 Q So you've noticed that there's a court 24 reporter here 25 get all the words down that you let me finish my ACLU-RDI 6806 p 13 It's important so that she can Page 14 1 questions before you answer even if you 2 absolutely know how I'm going to finish the 3 question 4 A Okay 5 Q And I'll let you finish your answer 6 before I ask the next question 7 Okay 8 A Very good 9 Q If you don't understand anything about a 10 question I ask please feel free to ask me and 11 I'll clarify it 12 assume that you understood the question -- If you answer it we'll all 13 A Okay 14 Q -- okay 15 16 So that was an example of your answering before I was finished with my question 17 And if you need any breaks at any time 18 feel free to take them You can consult with your 19 counsel Mr Bennett with regard to that and is 20 it clear there 21 A Okay 22 Q Okay 23 start 24 A No 25 Q Okay thank you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 14 Any questions then before we Page 15 1 So Mr Rodriguez you recall that you 2 were originally supposed to be deposed back in 3 January 4 A Yes 5 Q And that deposition was canceled because 6 you were -- you signed a declaration 7 Do you remember that 8 A Yes 9 Q Okay 10 11 We're going to mark this declaration as Exhibit 36 12 Exhibit 36 was marked for 13 identification 14 BY MR LUSTBERG 15 Q Mr Rodriguez if you could take a quick 16 look at that declaration and in particular look 17 at page 20 I believe it is and let me ask you 18 Is that your signature at the bottom of -- 19 A Yes it is 20 Q -- the page 21 Okay Again let me just finish the questions 22 A Okay 23 Q I understand it's not how human beings 24 converse but that's how we do this in 25 depositions ACLU-RDI 6806 p 15 Page 16 1 2 And it's dated January 24 2017 correct 3 A Correct 4 Q Okay 6 A Yes 7 Q And before you signed it did you read 5 8 That was the date that you signed it every paragraph 9 A Yes 10 Q And it's entirely true 11 A True 12 Q Okay 13 A My lawyer 14 Q And what was the arrangement pursuant to Who drafted this declaration 15 which you signed it 16 did you sign it 17 18 A That is what what -- why I signed it because it was the truth as I know it over the years 19 Q And does it include all the information 20 of which you are aware that pertains to these 21 subjects 22 A Yes 23 Q The -- was your understanding when you 24 signed it that as a result of your signing it you 25 would not have to be deposed at that time ACLU-RDI 6806 p 16 Page 17 1 A I thought that was the case 2 Q Did you get anything else in return as a 3 result of signing the declaration 4 A What do you mean 5 Q Was there any kind of deal that you 6 would sign the declaration and get something in 7 return 8 A No 9 Q Okay 10 Some very quick background on you 11 You used to work at the CIA correct 12 A Correct 13 Q And if you could just very briefly -- 14 we're not going to spend a lot of time on this -- 15 provide your -- when did you start at the CIA 16 A I started at the CIA November of 1976 17 Q Okay and what was your first position 18 there 19 A I first -- the first two years was 20 training and then after that I was ready to go 21 overseas and I went overseas six or seven times 22 23 Q And before you worked at the CIA you went to law school correct 24 A Correct 25 Q Did you ever practice law ACLU-RDI 6806 p 17 Page 18 1 A No 2 Q Do you still have your law license 3 A No 4 Q Did you have your law license in 2002 5 A No 6 Q When did you give up your law license 7 A I never got a law license 8 graduated from law school 9 to get a job at the CIA actually 10 11 Q I just I went to law school So did you study let's say criminal law in particular 12 A Yes 13 Q And just general courses in law school 14 regarding criminal law 15 A Yes 16 Q At any point did you study the 17 definition of torture in Title 18 of the United 18 States Code 19 A At some point perhaps back then 20 Q Back when 21 A Back when I was in law school but more 22 recently when I was involved in running the 23 Counter-Terrorism Center 24 25 Q Okay Let's talk about that When did you begin begin at the Counter-Terrorism Center ACLU-RDI 6806 p 18 Page 19 1 A I began in September of 2001 2 Q So right after 9 11 3 A About ten days after 9 11 or so 4 Q What was your first position at the 5 Counter-Terrorism Center 6 7 A the Counter-Terrorism Center 8 9 I was the chief operating officer for Q So if your Wikipedia page says that you were chief of staff is that incorrect 10 A That is incorrect 11 Q Your title was chief operating officer 12 A Yes 13 Q And then -- 14 A It's the title I gave myself because 15 there was no position for me there 16 17 Q Okay How did that happen that you gave yourself that title 18 A I was asked to support and help -- Cofer 19 Black was the head of the Counter-Terrorism 20 Center and to go help him out so I got there and 21 I had to give myself a title find an office and 22 become essentially the number 3 person 23 24 Q And how long were you the chief operating officer of the -- 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 19 A Until May 2002 Page 20 1 THE REPORTER 2 3 I didn't get the end of your question BY MR LUSTBERG 4 Q So we just need to both be better about 5 that so let's start -- so you became -- I'm 6 sorry 7 May 2002 is that what you said You were chief operating officer until 8 A Yes 9 Q And then what position did you assume 10 A I became the director of the 11 Counter-Terrorism Center 12 Q What is the Counter-Terrorism Center 13 A The Counter-Terrorism Center is the 14 organization within the agency that carries out 15 covert action foreign intelligence operations 16 analysis on counter-terrorism for the agency for 17 the director 18 Q I just want to make sure I understand 19 that So is it okay if I call the 20 Counter-Terrorism Center CTC 21 A Yes 22 Q In fact it's commonly referred to as 23 CTC right 24 A Correct 25 Q So the CTC carries out covert action ACLU-RDI 6806 p 20 Page 21 1 correct 2 A Correct 3 Q It does foreign intelligence operation 4 analysis right 5 A Foreign intelligence operations 6 Q Okay and you said for the director is 7 that right 8 A 9 And analysis -- separate -- for the director of the CIA 10 Q So you reported directly to the director 11 of the CIA 12 A I had a reporting channel to the 13 director of the CIA yes in addition to other 14 people 15 Q Did the functions of the CTC change 16 after 9 11 17 A Yes 18 Q In what way generally 19 A Overnight we were overwhelmed with 20 requirements to go out and get Al-Qaeda and 21 protect the country and save American lives 22 Q At that time -- and when we say at that 23 time let's focus on the time period in 2002 did 24 you know anything about the Air Force's Survival 25 Evasion Resistance and Escape which we refer to ACLU-RDI 6806 p 21 Page 22 1 as SERE program 2 A Not early on 3 Q Okay 4 Later When did you learn about the SERE program 5 A When we started to figure out what to do 6 to get Abu Zubaydah to tell us what were the 7 pending attacks on the country 8 9 Q So before you tried to figure out what to do to get Abu Zubaydah to tell us what were the 10 pending attacks on the country you did not know 11 anything about the SERE program 12 13 A I didn't know what -- I did not know anything 14 Q Had you heard of it 15 A No 16 Q You mentioned that you have a law 17 degree Have you had any training in psychology 18 A No 19 Q Have you studied or know anything about 20 post-traumatic stress disorder 21 A No 22 Q Have you heard of that 23 A Yes 24 Q What have you heard about it 25 A What I hear on TV ACLU-RDI 6806 p 22 Page 23 1 Q Just from TV 2 A Just TV mm-hmm 3 Q Have you heard about post-traumatic 4 stress disorder anywhere other than on TV 5 A No 6 Q Have you studied at any point the 7 long-term effects of torture 8 A No 9 Q Have you spoken to people about the 10 long-term effects of torture 11 A No 12 Q Okay I want to direct your attention 13 to the time period in which Drs Mitchell and 14 Jessen were hired 15 A Mm-hmm 16 Q And for the record Drs Mitchell and 17 Jessen are here today 18 19 At the time that Dr Mitchell was hired what was he doing do you recall 20 A He was hired by the CIA in December of 21 2001 by the Office of Technical Services to 22 provide psychological support applied psychology 23 and research and he came to CTC in April of 2002 24 to help us out with Abu Zubaydah 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 23 Q Okay Just to break that down a little Page 24 1 bit what was -- the Office of Technical Services 2 what is that 3 A It's an office within the Directorate of 4 Science and Technology that does this type of 5 stuff 6 Q What type of stuff 7 A Like hire the psychologist 8 Q So when Dr Mitchell was working at the 9 10 Office of Technical Services you said he provided psychological support 11 What does that mean 12 13 A He provided research and applied psychological support to the agency 14 Q So he did research 15 A I assume so 16 Q You don't know 17 A No 18 Q Do you know anything about the applied 19 psychological research that he did 20 A No 21 Q Okay Do you know beyond what you 22 said anything more about what his activities were 23 at OTS 24 A No 25 Q And when I say OTS just so that the ACLU-RDI 6806 p 24 Page 25 1 record is clear I'm referring to the Office of 2 Technical Services 3 Do you know anything about any 4 psychological applied psychological papers that 5 he did or -- 6 A No 7 Q Okay How did it come about that 8 Dr Mitchell was -- left OTS and began to work for 9 CTC 10 A He was recommended to us by someone in 11 CTC that he should be someone to accompany a team 12 that was going overseas to debrief Abu Zubaydah 13 14 Q I just want to make sure I understand You said he was recommended by someone in CTC 15 A Yes 16 Q Okay Just because these these details 17 are important if you could take a look at at 18 paragraph 12 of your declaration It's on page 2 19 A Page 12 or -- 20 Q Paragraph 12 page 2 21 A Mm-hmm 22 Q Do you see that at the bottom of the 23 Sorry page 24 A Yes 25 Q Paragraph 12 says OTS then recommended ACLU-RDI 6806 p 25 Page 26 1 Dr Mitchell to CTC Legal and CTC hired him 2 A Okay 3 Q Was it OTS that recommended Dr Mitchell 4 to CTC Legal 5 A OTS recommended him to CTC and CTC 6 recommended that he be a person -- that he should 7 be hired by us 8 9 Q Okay So CTC Legal recommended to you to hire Dr Mitchell 10 A Yes 11 Q You were responsible for that hiring 12 decision 13 A No 14 Q Who was responsible for that hiring 15 decision 16 A Whoever hires people at CIA 17 MR JOHNSON 18 MR LUSTBERG 19 20 Objection Sorry I'll withdraw the question MR JAMES SMITH Just so the 21 record is clear can we have the basis for 22 the objection 23 MR JOHNSON We've been asked for 24 a full recitation of the objection so I read 25 the whole thing ACLU-RDI 6806 p 26 Page 27 1 2 3 THE REPORTER louder You need to speak You've been asked for -MR JOHNSON We have been asked 4 for a full objection so I will go ahead and 5 articulate 6 MR JAMES SMITH Before you go on 7 if the contention is that it would require 8 the witness to reveal classified information 9 you can just say that for the record and 10 that will be fine with me I'm sure fine with 11 everyone in the room 12 MR JOHNSON Certainly I just 13 want to make sure since you asked for a full 14 recitation 15 The government objects to the 16 degree that the question would call for 17 classified information or information subject 18 to -- and that therefore subject to an 19 assertion of the State Secrets Privilege or 20 protected from disclosure by the CIA Act 50 21 U S C Section 3507 or the National Security 22 Act 50 U S C Section 3024 23 The witness however may answer 24 the question if he is confident he can do so 25 on the basis of unclassified and ACLU-RDI 6806 p 27 Page 28 1 non-privileged information without reference 2 to any of the classified categories of 3 information in Government Exhibit 1 4 MR BENNETT 5 Well hold it Excuse me 6 MR JOHNSON 7 The question was withdrawn 8 MR BENNETT 9 I do not want Mr Rodriguez to have to make that judgment 10 That's why the government is here 11 point in time it's impossible for us to know 12 what is classified and what isn't classified 13 So if he gives a name are you saying it's 14 okay or not okay 15 MR JOHNSON 16 At this He can't give a name Cannot 17 MR LUSTBERG 18 I have withdrawn the question so we're okay 19 MR BENNETT Okay 20 THE WITNESS I was not going to 21 reveal a name 22 MR BENNETT 23 24 Well you just be quiet until you are asked a question Okay BY MR LUSTBERG 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 28 Q When when Dr Mitchell was hired by CTC Page 29 1 on the recommendation of OTS and then CTC Legal 2 he got a new contract correct 3 A Correct 4 Q Okay and the terms of that contract 5 were that he instead of making $10 000 it was 6 now a contract for $101 600 7 Do you recall that 8 A I've seen the contract 9 Q Okay If you want -- if you need to 10 take a look it's Exhibit Exhibit A and B 11 original contract is Exhibit A and the subsequent 12 contract was Exhibit B to your declaration 13 A His Okay 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER We need to go 15 off the record for a technical reason 16 time is 10 33 a m 17 Whereupon a short recess was 18 taken 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER The 20 21 10 37 a m We're back on the record BY MR LUSTBERG 22 23 The time is Q Mr Rodriguez did you have a chance to look at Exhibits A and B 24 A Yes 25 Q And was I right that the value of the ACLU-RDI 6806 p 29 Page 30 1 contract went from $10 000 to $101 600 2 A Correct but you should know that he was 3 paid by the hour so what the contracts people do 4 is they put money into the kitty and they 5 withdraw as he does his work 6 Q Okay So what's the significance of 7 those of the of the press -- so it looks like -- 8 look at Exhibit A 9 ask multiple questions at once 10 the question 11 $10 000 12 13 I'm sorry It says Price Do you see that I don't want to Let's make this Not to exceed Exhibit A the first contract 14 A Yeah what page 15 Q Page 1 16 A Okay 17 Q And if you look at Exhibit B it says 18 Price Yes I see it Not to exceed $101 600 correct 19 A Correct 20 Q So it could be less but it couldn't be 21 more is that correct 22 A Yes 23 Q Okay 24 25 Thank you for that clarification Other than that Exhibit B makes clear that all other terms and conditions remain in full ACLU-RDI 6806 p 30 Page 31 1 force and effect right 2 A Correct 3 Q And in particular the services that 4 Dr Mitchell was to provide was -- and I'm looking 5 at -- let's look at A 6 shall provide consultation and research on 7 counter-terrorism and special ops 8 Do you see that It says The Contractor 9 A Let me find it 10 Q Take your time 11 A Yes I get it 12 Q Okay I see it So just to be clear in 13 Dr Mitchell's first contract it described the 14 services as 15 consultation and research on counter-terrorism and 16 special ops 17 the previously provided Statement of Work 18 The Contractor shall provide Special taskings are identified in Do you see that 19 A Yes I see it 20 Q And if you look -- bless you -- to the 21 statement of work which is several pages later in 22 your exhibit 23 A Okay 24 Q I want to ask you about a couple of 25 these these entries ACLU-RDI 6806 p 31 Page 32 1 It says Project Objectives and it 2 says Provide consultation to the Professional 3 Standards Advisory Committee 4 Do you know what that is 5 A No 6 Q And it says Regarding applied research 7 in high-risk operational settings 8 9 Do you know what research in high-risk operational settings Dr Mitchell was doing 10 A No 11 Q Under Deliverables it says Provide 12 consultation and recommendations for applying 13 research methodology to meet OTS goals and 14 objectives on a level of effort basis 15 Do you know what research methodology 16 Dr Mitchell was consulting and making 17 recommendations about 18 A The only thing that I know is that he 19 was supporting the team that went out there to 20 debrief Abu Zubaydah 21 22 Q So do you know anything about what research he was doing in connection with that 23 A No 24 Q Just to fast-forward a bit if you can 25 look at Exhibit H this is Dr Jessen's contract ACLU-RDI 6806 p 32 Page 33 1 And again just for the record this is Exhibit H 2 to Exhibit 36 right 3 4 Sorry Mr Rodriguez this as Dr Jessen's contract 5 6 Do you recognize A It looks like it I hadn't seen it before 7 Q You had not seen it before 8 A Hadn't seen it before I was shown this 9 this exhibit 10 Q 11 today 12 A 13 You had not seen it before No before -- I was shown this exhibit in preparation for this meeting 14 15 I'm sorry Q Okay This exhibit was attached to your declaration 16 A Correct 17 Q Okay and before that you had not seen 19 A No 20 Q Do you know whether it's Dr Jessen's 18 21 I saw it then it contract 22 A It looks like it 23 Q Based on your information did he 24 fulfill the terms of his contract 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 33 A Yes Page 34 1 2 Q And if you turn to the top of the second page of it it says Services 3 Do you see that 4 A Yes 5 Q And the services are Task 1 Provide 6 consultation and recommendations for applying 7 research methodology 8 Do you see that 9 A Yes 10 Q Then it says CONUS 11 What does CONUS stand for 12 A CONUS is the US 13 Q And then it says Conduct specified 14 applied research projects 15 Do you see that 16 A Yes 17 Q And your testimony is that Dr Jessen 18 fulfilled the terms of the contract by providing 19 those services is that right 20 A Correct 21 Q So back to Dr Mitchell for a second 22 did you select Dr Mitchell to work with CTC 23 A Once he was recommended and I met 24 Dr Mitchell yes I recommended him to continue 25 working with us ACLU-RDI 6806 p 34 Page 35 1 Q I want to read you a passage from your 2 book and when I say your book I'm referring to 3 the book Hard Measures 4 Do you see that there 5 A Yes 6 Q That looks like you 7 A That looks like me 8 Q Yeah and and -- 9 MR BENNETT 10 that's him 11 MR LUSTBERG 12 You're so reasonable 13 14 Ill stipulate that MR BENNETT Thank you BY MR LUSTBERG 15 Q I'm going to just -- we're going to just 16 mark this as Exhibit 37 yeah 17 passages for now We'll mark 18 Exhibit 37 was marked for 19 identification 20 BY MR LUSTBERG 21 22 Q So if you could take a look at page 55 which is the first page Do you see that 23 A Yes 24 Q And in the second full paragraph is the 25 sentence Within two days of AZ's capture we ACLU-RDI 6806 p 35 Page 36 1 tracked down the contractor and asked if he would 2 accompany a team of CTC officers to the black site 3 where we hoped Abu Zubaydah would be 4 interrogated 5 Do you see that 6 A Yes 7 Q First of all the reference to AZ is 8 Abu Zubaydah correct 9 A Correct 10 Q And the reference to the contractor is 11 Dr Mitchell is that correct 12 A Correct 13 Q Okay 14 So how did you reach him within two days of AZ's capture 15 A Well I assume that he was at 16 headquarters Somebody you know somebody 17 reached him 18 Somebody in the Counter-Terrorism Center reached 19 him I did not reach him myself 20 Q Did you know him at that time 21 A I did not know him 22 Q So that was the first time that you had 23 met Dr Mitchell 24 A I met him yes for the first time 25 Q Mm-hmm ACLU-RDI 6806 p 36 Ultimately though you were Page 37 1 the one who made the decision to hire him at CTC 2 A Yes 3 Q Why did you think he was qualified 4 A Because of his experience with SERE and 5 because we needed to do something different than 6 what had been done before and he looked like the 7 right person to do it 8 Q 9 do it 10 A Why did he look like the right person to Because he had a tremendous expertise 11 and he had a good vision for what needed to be 12 done 13 Q What did he have tremendous expertise 15 A In SERE 16 Q What was his SERE experience to your 14 17 in knowledge at that time 18 19 A Force working on SERE 20 21 Q A The expertise I was interested in was SERE 24 25 Did he have -- was there any other source of his tremendous expertise 22 23 He had spent many years with the Air Q When you said he had a good vision for what needed to be done what was that good ACLU-RDI 6806 p 37 Page 38 1 vision 2 A That good vision was the use of enhanced 3 interrogations to get Abu Zubaydah to cooperate 4 with us 5 Q Was that his idea 6 A It was a recommendation I don't 7 remember exactly who the recommendation came from 8 but I assume he was part of that recommendation 9 10 Q I'm sorry He was -- you're saying that he was recommended to you 11 A That was a recommendation from him 12 regarding the use of the enhanced interrogation 13 techniques 14 Q I see okay and that's -- so his -- the 15 recommendation from him to use enhanced 16 interrogation techniques was what you mean when 17 you said he had a good vision 18 A Yes 19 Q Okay 20 A He had a good vision for how to get this 21 person to tell us about the pending attacks on the 22 US 23 Q Other than Dr Mitchell's experience at 24 SERE did he have any other qualifications that 25 you were aware of at that time ACLU-RDI 6806 p 38 Page 39 1 A Well he came with a Ph D highly 2 regarded and then the SERE experience is the one 3 that I was interested in 4 Q How did you know he was highly regarded 5 A I was told 6 Q The Senate Select Committee On 7 Intelligence report which I know you have some 8 concerns about says that neither Dr Mitchell 9 nor Dr Jessen quote had any experience as an 10 interrogator nor did either have specialized 11 knowledge of Al-Qaeda a background in 12 counter-terrorism or any relevant cultural or 13 linguistic experience 14 You've read that before right 15 A I've read that before 16 Q And what's your response to that 17 A My response to that is that at some 18 time -- sometimes it is important to do something 19 different because what's traditionally been done 20 hasn't worked and this was something different 21 and it worked very well 22 Q So Dr Mitchell was proposing -- 23 recommending was your word -- something 24 different right 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 39 A Yes Page 40 1 Q And that something different that 2 thinking outside the box as you say was 3 something that made him attractive to you 4 correct 5 A Correct 6 Q And when you say outside the box I 7 take it that that was different than sort of the 8 standard approaches that other people might have 9 been recommending to you 10 A Correct 11 Q How about the fact that -- well let's 12 break down the SSCI statement 13 It says that neither Dr Mitchell nor 14 Dr Jessen had any experience as an interrogator 15 Was of that of concern to you 16 A They had experience with SERE they had 17 experience with counter countering 18 interrogations and I thought that was a very 19 important issue to understand and to use to 20 reverse-engineer it to use it to our advantage 21 Q Did they -- was it your idea to 22 reverse-engineer SERE or was that Dr Mitchell's 23 idea 24 25 A came from Well the idea -- I don't know where it ACLU-RDI 6806 p 40 The idea was to use that experience Page 41 1 offensively to try to get information out of Abu 2 Zubaydah 3 4 Q proposed to you by Dr Mitchell 5 6 And again though that was what was A And the group of people who were working with me 7 Q Okay Did it concern you that neither 8 Dr Mitchell nor Dr Jessen had any relevant 9 cultural or linguistic experience as the SSCI 10 report says 11 A Well I don't know about that I think 12 they had a lot more experience in all of this than 13 the record shows and if you have read his recent 14 book you will see the expertise that he had 15 dealing with all of these people from that part of 16 the world 17 Q So your view is that when the SSCI 18 report says that he did not have that he nor 19 Jessen had any relevant cultural or linguistic 20 experience that's incorrect 21 A Incorrect 22 Q Did the -- you mentioned that there were 23 a number of people that you were discussing 24 Dr Mitchell's proposal with 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 41 A Correct Page 42 1 2 Q Did any of those other people who were working with you have experience with SERE 3 A No 4 Q Okay I want to show you -- so this is 5 what was previously marked as Exhibit 9 6 sure you give a copy to Mr Bennett Make Thank you 7 Discussion was held off the 8 record 9 BY MR LUSTBERG 10 11 Q Mr Rodriguez do you recognize this document 12 A No 13 Q You've never seen it before 14 A I don't think so 15 Q Okay For the record it's a document 16 entitled Recognizing and Developing 17 Counter-Measures to Al-Qaeda Resistance to 18 Interrogation Techniques a Resistance Training 19 Perspective authored by Dr Mitchell and 20 Dr Jessen 21 You see that correct 22 A Yes 23 Q Okay At the bottom of the executive 24 summary Drs Mitchell and Jessen write We are 25 not experts in Arab culture or the organizational ACLU-RDI 6806 p 42 Page 43 1 structure of Al-Qaeda 2 Do you see that 3 A Yes 4 Q However we have found that while 5 culture does affect perception and behavior the 6 cardinal dynamics of resistance to interrogation 7 and exploitation are not culturally dependent 8 Do you see that 9 A Yes 10 Q Do you agree with that 11 A I agree with that 12 Q Did you did you have any questions of 13 them when you met them 14 time 15 Let's take them one at a When you first met Dr Mitchell did you 16 ask him any questions about his background in 17 terms of expertise in Arab culture or the 18 organizational structure of Al-Qaeda 19 A No I just observed him in his work 20 Q I want to make sure I understand So 21 you -- did you observe him in his work before you 22 met him 23 A I would -- as you know from Hard 24 Measures I went out to the first site and had a 25 chance to meet him and talk to him and understand ACLU-RDI 6806 p 43 Page 44 1 what his views were 2 3 Q out to the site 4 5 So you had not met him before you went A No no I don't remember meeting him before that 6 Q And reading Hard Measures and actually 7 Dr Mitchell's book as well Dr Mitchell says 8 that when he eventually has a meeting with with 9 you and with Director Tenet and with Mr Rizzo 10 that there were a lot of questions asked of him 11 Is that correct 12 A I don't remember that 13 Q Okay Do you remember whether any 14 questions were asked about his expertise as either 15 an interrogator or in terms of -- 16 A I don't remember that 17 Q Just let me finish my question first 18 before you answer 19 A Okay 20 Q Thank you 21 I can play this for you if you wish but 22 on one of the interviews that you did on CBS This 23 Morning you said the following 24 referring to Drs Mitchell and Jessen were 25 experts on the SERE program which is a military ACLU-RDI 6806 p 44 These people Page 45 1 training program that trains our people how to 2 withstand interrogation tactics 3 knowledge and background on Islamic extremism 4 They had What knowledge and background on Islamic 5 extremism do you believe that Drs Mitchell and 6 Jessen had 7 A Well first of all their knowledge of 8 psychology human behavior was one that as he 9 points in his paper here translates into all 10 cultures 11 culture and I thought you know this is a person 12 who understands it and can deal with it 13 Q I saw him how he dealt with the Arab So your belief that they had knowledge 14 and background on Islamic extremism came about as 15 a result of your observations of them during the 16 course of interrogations is that correct 17 A Correct 18 Q Do you have any other knowledge with 19 regard to their knowledge and background on 20 Islamic extremism 21 A No 22 Q Okay Does it -- how do you feel about 23 the fact that Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen in 24 their what I just read to you say that they 25 didn't have knowledge about -- and background on ACLU-RDI 6806 p 45 Page 46 1 Islamic extremism 2 A I have no feeling about it 3 Q I want to ask you for your response to a 4 couple other statements that have been made about 5 Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen's background 6 In her book The Dark Side Jane Mayer 7 says that according to one colleague who is an 8 interrogator Mitchell had not even observed an 9 interrogation referring to prior to to this 10 this assignment 11 Do you know whether that's true or not 12 A I do not 13 Q And Ali Soufan from the FBI says the 14 same thing 15 To your knowledge is it true that 16 Dr Mitchell had never even observed an 17 interrogation prior to his assignment 18 A I do not know 19 Q Okay I want to ask you to turn to 20 paragraph 42 of your declaration and that's on 21 page 7 Mr Rodriguez 22 A Okay 23 Q In paragraph 42 a you say Before 24 September 11 2001 the CTC had no resident 25 expertise in interrogation is that correct ACLU-RDI 6806 p 46 Page 47 1 A True 2 Q When I say is that correct it's not 3 just that you said it that was a true fact 4 A True 5 Q Okay and it says in b To be used 6 effectively interrogation skills must be 7 developed over years and that interrogation was 8 not a part of the CTC's core counter-terrorism 9 mission 10 Is that true 11 A True 12 Q So were you -- did you have expertise in 13 interrogation 14 A No 15 Q That is not something that you had done 16 in your prior assignments with the CIA 17 A No 18 Q And were you in a position to evaluate 19 then whether somebody was doing a good job at 20 interrogation or not 21 A Only in terms of results 22 Q But it's not an area that you had any 23 training or experience in 24 25 A At the CIA many times we take on new jobs and we don't have any training or ACLU-RDI 6806 p 47 Page 48 1 experience 2 never done any CTC work 3 it and you very quickly become pretty 4 knowledgeable about it 5 Q Like myself I came to CTC Okay I had You come and you learn I really want to focus here on 6 paragraph 42 c the next the next subparagraph 7 down 8 Do you see that 9 A Yes 10 Q And that says Having been referred to 11 the CTC by the OTS Drs Mitchell and Jessen were 12 eminently qualified to assist the CTC in 13 developing and applying EITs 14 Do you see that 15 A Yes 16 Q The fact that Drs Mitchell and 17 Jessen -- well first of all it says -- strike 18 that 19 question Let me start over try to ask a decent 20 As you point out that they were 21 referred -- Drs Mitchell and Jessen were referred 22 to the CTC by the OTS is that correct 23 A Yes 24 Q Is it true that Dr Jessen was referred 25 to the CTC by the OTS ACLU-RDI 6806 p 48 Page 49 1 A Jessen was -- Mitchell was referred 2 Mitchell was referred 3 Mitchell 4 Q Jessen was referred by So is the fact that they were referred 5 to the CTC by the OTS one of the reasons why you 6 believe they were quote eminently qualified to 7 assist the CTC in developing and applying EITs 8 A Yes 9 Q What about the reference from the OTS 10 led you to conclude that they were eminently 11 qualified 12 13 A knew what they were doing 14 15 I just took it for granted that they Q And you took it for granted based upon the referral from the OTS is that right 16 A Yes 17 Q You mentioned a few minutes ago that 18 that Dr Jessen was referred to you by 19 Dr Mitchell is that right 20 A Yes 21 Q What -- did you make the decision to 22 hire Dr Jessen 23 A Yes 24 Q What did you do to vet him 25 A Nothing ACLU-RDI 6806 p 49 Anything Page 50 1 2 Q You just took Dr Mitchell's word for A Well you know there's a whole vetting it 3 4 process that takes place at the agency and the 5 contract people and the security people they take 6 care of that 7 8 Q If you look at paragraph 39 that same page right before where we were 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes I see it 11 Q Thank you 12 Page 7 You got that You say At or about the conclusion of 13 this meeting and you're referring to a meeting 14 in July of 2002 15 A Mm-hmm 16 Q If you want to look back and make sure 17 I'm right about that This was a meeting that you 18 had with at headquarters that Dr Mitchell 19 attended in July of 2002 20 A Correct 21 Q Okay and you say at the conclusion of 22 the meeting that you on behalf of the CTC asked 23 Dr Mitchell to consider working with the CIA to 24 use some or all of the EITs to interrogate 25 Zubaydah right ACLU-RDI 6806 p 50 Page 51 1 A True 2 Q And then the next paragraph says At or 3 about this same time Dr Mitchell requested that 4 Dr Jessen be hired by the CTC to assist 5 Dr Mitchell with the CTC's request 6 Do you see that 7 A Yes 8 Q Was there any discussion about why 9 Dr Jessen should be hired 10 A He just needed him to work with him 11 Q Did he explain why he needed him 12 A No 13 Q And did you ask any questions about 14 Dr Jessen 15 A I don't remember 16 Q You may have 17 A I don't remember 18 Q So you don't remember whether or not you 19 asked any questions 20 A I don't remember 21 Q Which means you may have but you just 22 don't recall 23 A I don't remember 24 Q Would you agree that as Dr Mitchell's 25 book describes him he was quote the architect ACLU-RDI 6806 p 51 Page 52 1 of the CIA interrogation program 2 A Who who describes him 3 Q We're going to show you what has been 4 previously marked as Exhibit 4 in this case 5 A Okay 6 MR JAMES SMITH 7 the question be read back 8 pending question Mr Lustberg 9 MR LUSTBERG Can I ask that Is there a I tell you what 10 Why don't I -- I'll withdraw whatever 11 question was pending and just ask another 12 one -- 13 MR JAMES SMITH 14 Perfect Thank you 15 MR LUSTBERG 16 clear 17 BY MR LUSTBERG 18 Q -- just so it's If you look at the cover page it says 19 Interrogating the Enemy The Story of the CIA's 20 Interrogation of Top al-Qa'ida Terrorists Working 21 Title by James E Mitchell Ph D and then it 22 says Architect of the CIA Interrogation Program 23 and my question is 24 characterization of James E Mitchell Ph D as 25 the Architect of the CIA Interrogation Program ACLU-RDI 6806 p 52 Do you agree with the Page 53 1 MR JAMES SMITH 2 THE WITNESS 3 THE REPORTER 4 Yes You objected MR JAMES SMITH 6 MR BENNETT 7 MR JAMES SMITH Q You objected Yes So I didn't at the beginning talk to you as I should have about objections 11 12 I did BY MR LUSTBERG 9 10 I couldn't hear you 5 8 Objection MR BENNETT I did BY MR LUSTBERG 13 Q Okay so since your attorney has 14 instructed you when there's an objection unless 15 your attorney directs you not to answer you 16 should answer anyway which you did 17 So your answer to that question was yes 18 A Yes 19 Q So you agree that Dr Mitchell was the 20 architect of the CIA interrogation program 21 A Yes 22 Q I'm going to direct your attention to a 23 couple other passages from from this book 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 53 MR JAMES SMITH Objection Mr Lustberg just so we're clear this is Page 54 1 not the book 2 3 This is a draft MR LUSTBERG That's correct BY MR LUSTBERG 4 Q So just to be clear what I've shown you 5 is a is a manuscript that was submitted 6 we're not using the final version of the book 7 don't think there's any differences but okay 8 MR JAMES SMITH 9 It's -- Well Mr Lustberg you know that that passage was 10 removed that you just read to the witness 11 MR LUSTBERG 12 MR JAMES SMITH Right So saying for the 13 record that there aren't any differences I 14 don't think you mean to do that 15 MR LUSTBERG Okay I asked him 16 about whether he agreed with the 17 characterization and he said yes 18 19 I MR JAMES SMITH I hear you BY MR LUSTBERG 20 Q Directing your attention to pages 54 and 21 55 of the manuscript -- actually page 54 22 describes the meeting that we were just 23 discussing 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 54 Do you see that A What paragraph Page 55 1 Q Page 54 2 A 54 3 Q Mm-hmm 4 A Okay 5 Q Looking at the first full paragraph on 6 page 55 Dr Mitchell writes A day or so later 7 Rodriguez asked me if I would help put together an 8 interrogation program using EITs 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes 11 Q Is that true 12 A True 13 Q It's true that you did ask him to do 14 that 15 A Yes 16 Q To put together an interrogation 17 program 18 A Correct 19 Q Okay and in particular if you go a 20 little further down that paragraph it says Jose 21 not only wanted me to help them craft the program 22 he wanted me to conduct the interrogations using 23 EITs myself 24 25 Was it correct that you wanted him to craft the program ACLU-RDI 6806 p 55 Page 56 1 A Correct 2 Q Okay and just going back to -- going 3 back to the excerpts from your own book 4 Mr Rodriguez -- and and by the way just let me 5 backtrack 6 In in the passages I read to you from 7 Dr Mitchell's manuscript when it talked about 8 Mr Rodriguez or Rodriguez and Jose those 9 refer to you 10 A Yes 11 Q I mean when if when -- if his 12 description of what occurred was accurate if -- 13 that that was you Jose Rodriguez who was being 14 referred to correct 15 MR BENNETT Unless it was the 16 barber downstairs that I told you about 17 before 18 BY MR LUSTBERG 19 Q Do you have any -- 20 A I was the only Jose Rodriguez at the 21 agency I think at the time so 22 Q The barber downstairs wasn't -- 23 A He wasn't there 24 Q He wasn't at those meetings 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 56 MR BENNETT I'm sorry Page 57 1 MR LUSTBERG 2 that 3 BY MR LUSTBERG 4 5 Q Okay We need Just directing your attention in your own book to page 62 -- 6 MR JAMES SMITH 7 For the record the witness has Exhibit 37 before him 8 MR LUSTBERG 9 10 No no Yes Yes sir Thanks BY MR LUSTBERG 11 Q Page 62 which is the second page In 12 the first full paragraph on page 62 the -- you 13 write I asked the contractor and the 14 contractor refers to Dr Mitchell correct 15 the contractor refer to Dr Mitchell 16 A Yes 17 Q Okay Does How long it would take if we 18 employed more aggressive but legal techniques 19 before he would know whether a detainee was 20 willing to cooperate or was so dedicated that he 21 would take any secrets he had with him to the 22 grave 23 about it overnight and the next morning asked the 24 contractor if he would be willing to take charge 25 of creating and implementing such a program ACLU-RDI 6806 p 57 'Thirty days' was his estimate I thought Page 58 1 Do you see that 2 A Yes 3 Q So is it correct that you asked 4 Dr Mitchell if he would take charge of creating 5 and implementing a program 6 A Yes 7 Q And that program was the program of 8 enhanced interrogation techniques is that right 9 A Correct 10 Q And you were under instructions at that 11 time from Director Tenet to develop a an 12 interrogation program is that right 13 A Correct 14 Q So I just want to make sure I understand 15 what happened then and I direct your attention 16 for purposes of that to paragraph 46 of your 17 declaration which is Exhibit 36 on page 8 of the 18 declaration 19 A Yes 20 Q Do you see that 21 So this refers to a meeting on July 8 22 2002 at headquarters with Drs Mitchell and 23 Jessen if you look at paragraph 44 24 Do you see that 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 58 A Yes Page 59 1 Q In paragraph 46 it says At the 2 conclusion of this meeting I requested that 3 Drs Mitchell and Jessen provide me with a written 4 list identifying the potential EITs describing 5 how they would be implemented and identifying 6 their intended effects upon Zubaydah 7 Do you see that 8 A Yes 9 Q And they in fact did that correct 10 A Correct 11 Q If you look at Exhibit J to your to 12 your declaration is that the list of EITs that 13 that they provided as a result of your request 14 A Yes 15 Q And that -- let me just withdraw it 16 If you go to the next page paragraph 49 17 of your declaration page 9 paragraph 49 18 Thanks 19 Sorry I want to ask you about paragraph 49 20 It says During July 2002 with Drs Mitchell and 21 Jessen's input only as requested the CTC began 22 devising an interrogation plan for Zubaydah 23 utilizing some or all of the EITs hereinafter 24 the 'EIT Program' 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 59 So was the EIT program based upon the Page 60 1 list that Dr Mitchell had provided to you 2 A Yes 3 Q And you discussed in many places the 4 fact that however you wouldn't implement that 5 until you got approval -- 6 A Correct 7 Q No no that's okay but you sought 8 I'm sorry permission for all of those techniques correct 9 A Correct 10 Q Okay and just so that the record is 11 clear the techniques for which you sought 12 approval were -- and we can follow along if you 13 want to on Exhibit J -- were the attention grasp 14 walling facial hold facial slap cramped 15 confinement wall standing stress positions 16 sleep deprivation waterboard use of diapers 17 insects and mock burial 18 Now I'm not asking what got approved 19 I'm asking whether those were the techniques for 20 which you requested approval 21 A Yes 22 Q And again those are the techniques that 23 are set forth in the list that was provided by 24 Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen correct 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 60 A Yes Page 61 1 Q Did you request approval for techniques 2 other than those that were set forth on the list 3 provided by Drs Mitchell and Jessen 4 A I don't recall that 5 Q Okay and this became this became the 6 formal interrogation -- ultimately when there was 7 approval granted for at least some of them this 8 became the formal interrogation plan of CTC is 9 that correct 10 A Yes 11 MR JAMES SMITH 12 THE REPORTER 13 MR JAMES SMITH 14 Did you object Yes BY MR LUSTBERG 15 16 Objection Q Okay and in particular if you look at in your declaration -- 17 MR BENNETT 18 MR LUSTBERG 19 Yeah don't worry about that 20 THE WITNESS 21 MR LUSTBERG 22 Don't worry about it I'm just asking Oh about the objection 23 THE WITNESS The objection yeah 24 MR BENNETT I have no idea 25 MR LUSTBERG ACLU-RDI 6806 p 61 To be honest Page 62 1 2 neither do I but he knows BY MR LUSTBERG 3 4 That's good Q If you look at paragraph 58 on page 10 of your declaration 5 A Mm-hmm 6 Q This talks about the Zubaydah formal 7 interrogation plan and there's a cable which is 8 Exhibit M if you could pull out Exhibit M 9 as in Mary 10 M In your declaration you state that the 11 cable constituted Zubaydah's formal interrogation 12 plan and just referring to that exhibit if you 13 look at the second page paragraph 4 do you see 14 where it says Background 15 A Yes 16 Q Do you see the list of enhanced 17 interrogation techniques that are listed there 18 A Correct 19 Q It's a fact isn't it that those are 20 the same interrogation techniques -- let me try 21 that again 22 interrogation techniques as are set forth in 23 Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen's memo to you other 24 than the mock burial right 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 62 A They're the same enhanced I believe that's right Page 63 1 Q Okay It's important it's an important 2 fact so if you could take a look and see if 3 that's -- 4 5 A I mean mock burial was definitely out and I think that's the only one 6 Q So is it fair to say Mr Rodriguez 7 that Drs Mitchell and Jessen's proposal became 8 the enhanced interrogation techniques program for 9 the CIA 10 A Yes 11 Q And if you look at Exhibit I to your 12 declaration what is that 13 A Are you asking me 14 Q Yes 15 A A cable 16 Q Mm-hmm 17 A I have to read it 18 Q Take your time What is Exhibit I 19 20 A cable do you mean Witness peruses document BY MR LUSTBERG 21 Q I'm going to eventually direct your 22 attention to paragraph 5 which is on the second 23 page of the cable which has a list of pressure 24 techniques 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 63 Witness peruses document Page 64 1 2 THE WITNESS BY MR LUSTBERG 3 4 No date Q Well it says date -- 7 with no date 2002 so July 2002 5 A I don't know if it's July 6 Q Right 7 A The date matters but 8 Q Okay 9 Well let me ask you this it says here -- 10 A Let me finish here 11 Q I'm sorry 12 I apologize Take as much time as you need 13 14 Where Witness peruses document BY MR LUSTBERG 15 Q Take your time Let me know when you're 16 ready 17 A Yeah what's your question 18 Q My question is Under 5 it says The 19 below techniques are the menu of the preapproved 20 interrogation techniques 21 22 When it says preapproved who preapproved them 23 MR JOHNSON 24 MR LUSTBERG 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 64 withdraw the question Objection Okay let me -- I'll Page 65 1 BY MR LUSTBERG 2 3 Q Were you the person who preapproved them 4 A No 5 Q Did you approve these techniques that 6 Drs Mitchell and Jessen proposed though 7 8 A I did but I don't remember it 9 10 I mean the cable went out under my name Q So you don't recall whether you approved A If the cable went out under my name it them 11 12 meant I approved it so I take responsibility for 13 it but I don't recall this specific cable here 14 Q Just to go back to what I was asking you 15 about before if you look through 5 it's the same 16 exact list other than the mock burial that we 17 were talking about before right 18 Do you see that 19 A Mm-hmm 20 Q And that was the list that was provided 21 by Drs Mitchell and Jessen 22 A Correct 23 Q Do you -- did you -- did anybody other 24 than -- and don't say who 25 Drs Mitchell and Jessen propose other techniques ACLU-RDI 6806 p 65 Did anybody other than Page 66 1 to you 2 A I don't recall 3 Q There may have been others 4 A I don't recall 5 Q Did did you propose any other list 6 other than this list to Mr Rizzo or to the 7 department -- 8 A No 9 Q Let me finish my question okay 10 stop there though 11 12 Let's So you never proposed any other list other than this list to Mr Rizzo 13 A No 14 Q Did you propose any other list other 15 than this list to the Department of Justice 16 A No 17 Q And is it true that the reason that you 18 used Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen's list was 19 because they were the experts that you trusted to 20 come up with such a list 21 A True 22 Q And in fact you believed them when they 23 said for example that 30 days was the amount of 24 time it would take to figure out whether the 25 techniques were working ACLU-RDI 6806 p 66 Page 67 1 A Yes 2 Q And because that was what they said the 3 techniques would in fact be applied for up to 30 4 days correct 5 A Correct 6 Q Do you agree that at that time -- that 7 is the time that Drs Mitchell and Jessen 8 proposed the enhanced interrogation techniques -- 9 that Dr Mitchell had acquired quote-unquote 10 tremendous influence in the process 11 12 A knowledge on SERE and we all respected him yes 13 14 Well he was highly respected for his Q So would you agree that he had tremendous influence 15 A He had tremendous respect 16 Q Certainly in in terms of what occurred 17 his views were taken into account right 18 A Correct 19 Q And the -- I just want to -- if you turn 20 to your declaration at page -- at paragraph 77 21 And that refers to an Exhibit P 22 A Okay 23 Q It says paragraph 77 says Thereafter 24 EIT program procedures used on Zubaydah were 25 formalized in various documents and when you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 67 Page 68 1 state when you use the phrase EIT program 2 procedures used on Zubaydah you're referring to 3 the EITs that were that were provided by 4 Drs Mitchell and Jessen 5 A Yes 6 MR LUSTBERG I'm just going to -- 7 can we just take a brief break for one 8 second 9 MR BENNETT Sure 10 MR JAMES SMITH 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 12 11 31 a m No no breaks The time is Going off the record 13 Whereupon a short recess was 14 taken 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 16 11 44 a m 17 18 The time is We're back on the record MR LUSTBERG Thank you BY MR LUSTBERG 19 Q Mr Rodriguez when we stopped we were 20 talking about whether as you said in paragraph 77 21 of your declaration whether the EIT program that 22 was designed by Drs Mitchell and Jessen were 23 formalized in various documents 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 68 Do you see that A Yes Page 69 1 Q And you said yes and I just wanted to 2 understand about -- when you said formalized in 3 various documents is that what the CIA tends to 4 do is to formalize policies into in various 5 documents 6 A The formal document on the enhanced 7 interrogation techniques comes from the Justice 8 Department the 1 August comprehensive memo that 9 outlined those enhanced interrogation techniques 10 that had been approved by the Justice Department 11 That's the that's the bottom line 12 Q Right and and those techniques -- if I 13 recall correctly those were the techniques that 14 were presented to Justice were the techniques 15 that that Drs Mitchell and Jessen had proposed 16 right 17 A Correct 18 Q And Justice did not -- well maybe you 19 can remind me 20 burial right 21 A Justice didn't approve the mock We took the mock burial off the list 22 because they had told us that they would require 23 more extensive research and work and we decided 24 we would just take it off 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 69 Q Okay but all the other techniques were Page 70 1 the techniques that have been proposed by 2 Drs Mitchell and Jessen right 3 A Yes 4 Q I want to show you Exhibit 38 5 Exhibit 38 was marked for 6 identification 7 BY MR LUSTBERG 8 9 Q Mr Rodriguez let me know when you've had a chance to take a look at this 10 A Read the whole thing 11 Q Well just -- I'll ask you -- I'll 12 direct you to certain places 13 A Okay 14 Q So let's start here 15 It says -- it's dated January 31 2003 right 16 A Correct 17 Q Do you recognize this by the way 18 A No 19 Q It says DCI Guidelines for the Conduct 20 of Interrogations 21 What does DCI stand for 22 A Director of Central Intelligence 23 Q Okay Given -- and you can take a look 24 at the content of it 25 Intelligence at that time was Mr Tenet is that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 70 The Director of Central Page 71 1 right 2 A Yes 3 Q Okay 4 Would he have issued this directly or would you have been involved in that 5 A 6 input 7 Q He would have issued it based on our And if you look at the third at the 8 second and third pages do you see where it -- 9 bless you -- where it says Permissible 10 Interrogation Techniques 11 A Yes 12 Q And it has a paragraph there about 13 standard techniques 14 Do you see that 15 A Yes 16 Q And then if you go to the next page 17 which for the record is Bates 1172 it has a list 18 of enhanced techniques 19 A Yes 20 Q And if you look at that list of enhanced 21 techniques which are described as techniques 22 that do incorporate physical or psychological 23 pressure beyond standard techniques it has down 24 below the same list right 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 71 So again -- I'm sorry I don't mean to Page 72 1 be mysterious 2 grasp walling facial hold facial slap 3 abdominal slap cramped confinement wall 4 standing stress positions sleep deprivation 5 beyond 72 hours use of diapers for prolonged 6 periods use of harmless insects the waterboard 7 and this says and such other techniques as may be 8 specifically approved 9 These techniques are attention Do you see that 10 A Yes I see that 11 Q That's the same list as was developed -- 12 A Yes 13 Q Let me -- 14 A I'm sorry 15 Q Let me make it clear Yes Those are the 16 same techniques as were developed by Drs Mitchell 17 and Jessen right 18 A Yes 19 Q And if you go to the first page you can 20 see that this was sent around to other to other 21 black sites right 22 A Only one 23 Q To Cobalt 24 A Yes 25 Q Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 72 Cobalt was a -- so these Page 73 1 techniques were applied at Cobalt is that right 2 A I assume so 3 Q And when you say you assume so if 4 this went to Cobalt and these were the approved 5 techniques for Cobalt then they would have been 6 the ones that would have been allowed to be used 7 there correct 8 9 A I just don't know if they were used in that precise location 10 Q Okay You don't know if they were used 11 but you know that they were approved for use 12 there 13 A They were approved for use yes 14 Q Okay So just to make it clear the 15 techniques that Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen had 16 proposed were formalized in certain documents 17 correct 18 A Yes 19 Q And this is one of those documents that 20 formalized the use of those techniques right 21 A Yes 22 Q And and then they were approved for use 23 at Cobalt correct 24 A And beyond 25 Q Okay but for purposes of -- you can ACLU-RDI 6806 p 73 Page 74 1 tell that from this that they were used for 2 they were approved for Cobalt correct 3 A Correct 4 Q And you say they were also approved for 5 other sites 6 A Once the enhanced interrogation 7 techniques were approved we used them at 8 different sites 9 Q Okay That's because that was -- that 10 became the enhanced interrogation program for the 11 CIA right 12 A True 13 Q You don't know -- you are aware that two 14 of the plaintiffs here are Salim and Soud 15 know those names Do you 16 A Yes 17 Q You know that just from by virtue of 18 this case 19 A By virtue of this case yes 20 Q Do you know whether these techniques 21 were used on Salim -- any of these techniques were 22 used on Salim and Soud 23 A They were not 24 Q They were -- you know that they were 25 not ACLU-RDI 6806 p 74 Page 75 1 A They were not They didn't use any 2 enhanced interrogation techniques as I understand 3 it on those two individuals 4 Q Okay So this is a long document and 5 what I want to do is -- this is very challenging 6 but I want to direct your attention to the very 7 last page of Exhibit 11 8 Before -- 9 10 MR BENNETT Familiarize yourself BY MR LUSTBERG 11 Q Yeah 12 A This one 13 Q Yes in the very small print 14 15 First of all have you ever seen this document before 16 A No 17 Q Okay 18 A No 19 Q Okay 20 No the -- no -- Do you recognize it at all This is entitled A Chronology of CIA High-Value Detainee Interrogation Techniques 21 Do you see that 22 A Yes 23 Q Is that the kind of thing that normally 24 you would have received 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 75 A This document Page 76 1 Q Yes 2 A I assume so 3 Q Mm-hmm okay and the last page is 4 entitled EITs Used With CIA Detainees 5 Do you see that 6 A Yes 7 Q And you see there's a list across the 8 top of the of the enhanced interrogation 9 techniques 10 A Correct 11 Q And you see that it has a couple of 12 names and it has check boxes as to which of the 13 enhanced interrogation techniques were used 14 A I see that 15 Q These would seem to indicate that with 16 regard to Salim and Soud that the -- those various 17 techniques were used 18 Do you agree with that 19 A I I assume so 20 Q Okay I had never seen this When you said a few minutes ago 21 that those techniques were not used on Salim and 22 Soud what was that based upon 23 A It's based on the fact that we used the 24 enhanced interrogation techniques on high-value 25 targets and these individuals were not high-value ACLU-RDI 6806 p 76 Page 77 1 targets 2 Q Okay The -- just directing your 3 attention back to Exhibit 38 That was the one 4 right before the January 31 2003 5 A Okay 6 Q And you had testified that that this 7 was a list of the techniques that were approved 8 for Cobalt 9 A Yes 10 Q And you are aware that Salim and Soud 11 was were at Cobalt 12 A I assume so 13 Q Okay I didn't know You don't know -- 14 MR BENNETT Excuse me 15 THE WITNESS Okay 16 MR BENNETT If you know you tell THE WITNESS I don't know 17 them 18 19 BY MR LUSTBERG 20 21 Q You don't know whether they were at Cobalt 22 A No 23 Q But you know that the that the enhanced 24 interrogation techniques were not applied to them 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 77 A They were not applied to them because Page 78 1 they were not high-value targets 2 Q Do you know as you sit here now 3 whether regardless of what value targets they 4 were whether they actually were applied to them 5 6 A I don't know that but they were not supposed to have been used on them 7 Q Okay So the -- just directing your 8 attention back to Exhibit 38 is there anywhere in 9 this document where it says that those techniques 10 are not supposed to be applied to medium-value 11 detainees 12 A I don't know 13 Q Okay 14 15 MR BENNETT Q 17 Take your time Witness peruses document BY MR LUSTBERG 19 20 Read it BY MR LUSTBERG 16 18 Take a look Q You shouldn't mark on the -- well you can do it and then we'll just ask about it 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 78 A I just want to -MR BENNETT Yeah I know your shirt Witness peruses document Use Page 79 1 BY MR LUSTBERG 2 Q While you're reading this for the 3 record this is a -- one of many cables that we 4 have discussed today -- 5 MR JAMES SMITH 6 MR LUSTBERG You say this Exhibit 38 I'm 7 sorry and Mr Smith and I have discussed 8 that these cables are admissible as business 9 records 10 That is they satisfy the hearsay section of the business records 11 MR JAMES SMITH 12 MR LUSTBERG Yes So they can be used 13 for purposes of these proceedings and in the 14 future without waiving any right to object to 15 hearsay hearsay and the like 16 right You have that 17 MR JAMES SMITH 18 that they are authentic despite the 19 redactions by the government and the 20 insertions by the government 21 MR LUSTBERG 22 MR JAMES SMITH We also agree Correct Okay So we 23 don't have to ask any witness any questions 24 about -- 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 79 MR LUSTBERG Right Page 80 1 MR JAMES SMITH 2 foundational matters 3 MR LUSTBERG 4 MR JAMES SMITH 5 Mm-hmm Good Thank you Mr Lustberg 6 7 -- those MR LUSTBERG Thank you BY MR LUSTBERG 8 Q You good 9 A Yes 10 Q You took some notes 11 A Yes 12 Q What did you write 13 A Why don't you ask the question 14 Q That's my question 15 A Well I wrote that the enhanced What did you write 16 interrogation program required must be approved by 17 headquarters in advance 18 whenever feasible must have advanced approval for 19 the use of the standard techniques and it needs 20 to be documented in cable traffic 21 Q The standard techniques When you say documented that's the 22 that's that last page where it says 23 recordkeeping where it says in each 24 interrogation session in which an enhanced 25 technique is employed a contemporaneous record ACLU-RDI 6806 p 80 Page 81 1 shall be created setting forth the nature and 2 duration of each such technique and so forth 3 A It says -- it's paragraph 4 4 Q Yeah go ahead 5 A Whenever feasible advance approval is 6 required for the use of standard techniques by an 7 interrogation team 8 shall be documented in cable traffic 9 In all instances their use MR BENNETT 10 MR LUSTBERG 11 Now give me your pen You have a fine lawyer 12 MR JAMES SMITH 13 reading from Bates page 1173 the US 14 government Bates label of Exhibit 38 15 MR LUSTBERG 16 Actually 1172 and 1173 17 MR JAMES SMITH 18 19 The witness was Okay Thank you for that clarification BY MR LUSTBERG 20 Q So did you find -- my original question 21 had been 22 guidance that was being sent to the field -- and 23 you said to Cobalt and beyond -- that limited 24 the use of the enhanced interrogation techniques 25 to high-value detainees ACLU-RDI 6806 p 81 Did you find anything specific in this Page 82 1 A No 2 Q The -- I showed you before on Exhibit 3 11 it was that very small print that had the list 4 of of techniques that had been -- that seem to 5 represent had been applied to those two detainees 6 Do you remember that 7 A Yes Where is that 8 Q Sorry 9 A Yes 10 Q So really a very simple question Exhibit 11 yeah the last page Is 11 there any reason why somebody from the CIA would 12 state that a technique had been used when it had 13 not 14 15 A of this document 16 MR JAMES SMITH 17 For the record this is referring to -- 18 THE WITNESS 19 It's just out of line totally out of line 20 MR LUSTBERG 21 22 No reason but I wonder -- is this part Exhibit 11 Bates number 1609 BY MR LUSTBERG 23 Q So I understand your question so the 24 format here is that I get to ask the questions 25 and my question really is just the one I asked ACLU-RDI 6806 p 82 Page 83 1 you which is Is there any reason why to your 2 knowledge based upon your years at the CIA 3 somebody from the CIA would state that an enhanced 4 interrogation technique had been used when in 5 fact it was not 6 MR JAMES SMITH 7 MR BENNETT 8 Go ahead and answer as best you can 9 10 Objection THE WITNESS Please ask again BY MR LUSTBERG 11 Q 12 Okay I'm just going to read you Is there any reason why to your 13 knowledge based upon your years at the CIA 14 somebody from the CIA would state that an enhanced 15 interrogation technique had been used when in 16 fact it had not 17 A 18 19 No MR JAMES SMITH Objection BY MR LUSTBERG 20 Q In any event when you asked me 21 questions about that document what you were what 22 you were asking was was whether -- let me strike 23 that 24 25 You don't know what techniques were or were not actually used on those detainees ACLU-RDI 6806 p 83 Page 84 1 correct 2 A No 3 Q You weren't there 4 A Correct 5 Q And and you have no idea what actually 6 occurred with regard to them 7 A Correct 8 Q Okay 9 A My question if I can -- or my statement 10 is 11 document 12 It doesn't look like this is part of this Q 13 14 Something added to it from somewhere Okay thank you For the record it's a redacted spreadsheet but we can deal with that later 15 Okay I'm going to move on Paragraph 16 38 -- I just want to explore some confusion I have 17 with regard to one issue 18 declaration you're describing a meeting that took 19 place at headquarters the first week of July 2002 In paragraph 38 of your 20 A Mm-hmm 21 Q Correct 22 A Yes 23 Q And Dr Mitchell attended that meeting 24 Do you see that 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 84 A Yes Page 85 1 Q And in paragraph 38 you write 2 Dr Mitchell explained that the particular goal 3 of EITs would be to dislocate the subject's 4 expectations and overcome his resistance and 5 thereby motivate him to provide the information 6 the CIA was seeking 7 explained that in working to achieve this goal 8 the interrogation could produce a range of mental 9 states in the subject including but not limited Dr Mitchell further 10 to fear learned helplessness compliancy or 11 false hope 12 13 My question to you is What did you mean by the term learned helplessness there 14 A I do not know All I heard was 15 Dr Mitchell explaining these psychological terms 16 Frankly my interest was in getting results not 17 in you know the psychological state of people 18 Q So so when you when you signed this 19 declaration that it's all true what you were 20 saying is that Dr Mitchell used that phrase 21 learned helplessness is that right 22 A Yes 23 Q Okay and I guess my question is -- in 24 paragraph 45 which is two pages later you say 25 I do not recall a specific discussion about ACLU-RDI 6806 p 85 Page 86 1 'learned helplessness' during this period and it 2 was not something I focused on which is what you 3 just said though I may have heard the term 4 I'm trying to understand how those two paragraphs 5 fit together 6 7 Did Dr Mitchell in fact use the phrase learned helplessness 8 A I assumed that he did 9 MR BENNETT Don't assume 10 THE WITNESS He did he used it 11 12 and I didn't pay much attention to it BY MR LUSTBERG 13 Q Okay so what you're saying is he used 14 it but there was not -- there was no real 15 discussion of it 16 17 A There may have been a discussion I did not focus on it 18 19 Q Okay Do you understand what the what learned helplessness is 20 A No 21 Q You've never heard of a psychologist 22 So named Martin Seligman 23 A No 24 Q And you have no knowledge of experiments 25 in the -- ACLU-RDI 6806 p 86 Page 87 1 A No 2 Q -- area of learned helplessness 3 A No 4 Q Thank you 5 Okay I want to -- I want to move on to 6 the issue of that you've discussed a few times 7 about how these techniques got authorized 8 A Okay 9 Q You have written on a number of 10 occasions and said that you wanted to make sure 11 before any of this happened that it was legal 12 right 13 A Correct 14 Q And let me ask you -- yeah that's a 15 memo 16 that 17 The -- why were you so concerned about A Because I had worked in other programs 18 where we came back -- they came back to haunt us 19 regarding the legality and the authorities and I 20 wanted to make sure that that did not happen 21 again 22 Q 23 Did you have particular doubts as to whether this program was legal 24 A No no 25 Q So when you were -- and as you write ACLU-RDI 6806 p 87 Page 88 1 many times that you really wanted to make sure it 2 got approval and I think what you specifically 3 said was -- and actually let's just go through it 4 if you don't mind 5 So in your in your book -- and this is 6 page 63 of Exhibit 37 so in the full paragraph in 7 the middle of that page you write Mr Rodriguez 8 We had two priorities 9 we developed had to be effective and legal Any interrogation program 10 Assuring ourselves of the latter proved 11 time-consuming but as critically important as we 12 felt it to be to get information that might help 13 us thwart impending attacks I insisted that we 14 take no action unless and until we were assured 15 in writing by the senior-most legal authorities 16 that we were not crossing legal red lines and 17 you insisted on a in the last sentence of that 18 paragraph quote a binding legal opinion from 19 the Department of Justice 20 And I guess my question for you is just 21 to make sure I understand That was motivated by 22 prior experience that you had had 23 A Correct 24 Q It was not motivated by any concern that 25 you harbored at that time that this was at all ACLU-RDI 6806 p 88 Page 89 1 close to the line in terms of legality 2 A Yes 3 Q Yes 4 A I I was concerned that we needed to 5 have that approval not necessarily because we 6 were close to the line 7 Q Then we can play this for you if you 8 want but on 60 Minutes you said quote We went 9 to the border of legality 10 We went to the border that was within legal bounds 11 A Yes I remember 12 Q What did you mean by by that 13 What did you mean by went to the border of legality 14 A Well we went -- you know the CIA is 15 empowered by the President to go further than law 16 enforcement or the military can go so we went 17 much farther closer to the line but did not pass 18 it 19 Q And the reason that you're you feel 20 confident that you didn't pass it was because you 21 got these assurances that you've that you've 22 previously described 23 24 A Because we got a binding legal opinion in writing from Justice Department 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 89 Q I'm not going to ask you a lot about Page 90 1 this but just quickly on the issue of the 2 destruction of the tapes did you think that 3 destroying -- that ordering the tapes to be 4 destroyed went to the border of legality to use 5 your phrase 6 A I wanted to make sure that it was legal 7 and that's why I called my lawyers in and asked 8 them if it was legal 9 Q So and with regard to that so again 10 you got assurance from your lawyers that 11 destroying the tapes was legal 12 A Correct 13 Q But my question is 14 Do you think that that went right to the border of legality 15 A I didn't think about it that way 16 Q It took a long time -- with respect to 17 each of these things let's take them one at a 18 time 19 With regard to getting the binding 20 opinion you were requesting that took a while 21 right 22 A It took weeks 23 Q And the fact that it took a long time 24 did that give you any concern that what you were 25 doing was going right up to the line of legality ACLU-RDI 6806 p 90 Page 91 1 A No it didn't give me any concern at 2 all It was just bureaucracy working slowly 3 through the process 4 Q Same same with regard to the tapes 5 A Yes 6 Q So from your perspective the reason 7 that it took so long to make a decision with 8 regard to both EITs and then the tapes was because 9 in each case there was just -- it was the slow 10 pace of bureaucracy 11 A Correct 12 Q Can I ask with regard to the tapes -- we 13 might as well do it this way 14 15 What was the reason why you felt that it was important to have the tapes destroyed 16 A I felt it was important to have the 17 tapes destroyed because I needed to protect the 18 people who were there on the black sites and they 19 were not just my people but they were also people 20 from other directorates that were involved with 21 our team conducting the enhanced interrogation 22 program 23 Q And when you say protect them you 24 wanted to make sure that their identities did not 25 get released because that could endanger them is ACLU-RDI 6806 p 91 Page 92 1 that right 2 A Correct 3 Q Was there any consideration given to the 4 fact that you know there's technology that can 5 pixelate the you know the photographs or 6 otherwise obscure who the identities of the people 7 on the tapes are 8 A I was not about to take that chance 9 Q So you thought that it would be too 10 risky to try some other technology that the only 11 safe way to do it was to actually destroy the 12 tapes 13 A True 14 Q Was there any other reason at all that 15 you wanted the tapes destroyed 16 A Well that was the primary reason 17 Q Was there a secondary reason 18 A Well a secondary reason as I have said 19 publicly was that the public the media would not 20 make a distinction once the tapes were released 21 between a legally approved program that this was 22 and the Abu Ghraib scandal that involved illegal 23 activity 24 25 Q So let me make sure I understand that You were concerned that the media would would use ACLU-RDI 6806 p 92 Page 93 1 the tapes in a way that would make the CIA look 2 bad 3 A It would make the CIA look bad and it 4 would actually in my view you know almost 5 destroy the clandestine service because of it 6 7 Q Do you recall whether Dr Mitchell recommended to you that the tapes be destroyed 8 A 9 tapes All of us were concerned about the I'm sure that Mitchell and Jessen were 10 concerned as I was and everybody else who worked 11 around me we were very concerned about it and 12 had been trying to get them destroyed for years 13 14 Q Okay So let me just unpack that a little 15 So first of all with regard to 16 Drs Mitchell and Jessen do you have a 17 recollection as to whether they discussed the 18 destruction of the tapes with you 19 20 A I don't have a recollection of them discussing it with me 21 Q You said that they were concerned about 23 A Yes 24 Q How do you know that 25 A They talked to other people that I know 22 it ACLU-RDI 6806 p 93 Page 94 1 2 Q Okay but but they did not talk to you about it 3 A I don't recall 4 Q Okay 5 A By that time I was on the seventh floor 6 They may have and I was out of the chain of command 7 Q Okay I mean do you recall Dr Mitchell 8 recommending to you that the tapes be destroyed 9 because of how how ugly they were 10 A No 11 Q When you say you don't is that because 12 you don't recall or because that's -- 13 A 14 about that 15 Q 16 I don't recall him ever talking to me If he had talked to you about that do you think you would recall it 17 A Maybe not 18 Q So it's possible that you had that 19 conversation and you just don't remember it 20 MR BENNETT 21 MR JAMES SMITH Objection BY MR LUSTBERG 24 25 I think he's answered your question 22 23 Object Q Just back to the question of the legality of the enhanced interrogation techniques ACLU-RDI 6806 p 94 Page 95 1 were you involved in any effort to obtain a 2 representation from the Department of Justice that 3 there would be no criminal prosecution based upon 4 using the enhanced interrogation techniques 5 A I think what we were seeking from the 6 Justice Department was a legal opinion in 7 writing that said that everything was legal 8 9 Q Beyond the opinion in writing which you certainly requested was there an effort to gain 10 some sort of immunity from prosecution for anybody 11 who had been involved in in the enhanced 12 interrogation techniques 13 14 A lawyers about that 15 16 I think you probably need to talk to our Q Let me show you a document previously marked as Exhibit 25 17 18 Witness peruses document BY MR LUSTBERG 19 Q Do you recognize this 20 A No 21 Q Have you ever seen it before 22 A No 23 Q Okay In the very last paragraph on the 24 second page of it which is Bates C06541505 it 25 has the language I respectfully request that you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 95 Page 96 1 grant a formal declination of prosecution in 2 advance for any employees of the United States 3 as well as any other personnel acting on behalf of 4 the United States who may employ methods in the 5 interrogation of Abu Zubaydah that otherwise might 6 subject those individuals to prosecution under 7 Section 2340A of Title 18 of the United States 8 Code as well as under any other applicable U S 9 law 10 11 Do you have any knowledge of that request 12 13 A Counsel so I assume they made that request 14 15 Q Oh you're saying that you were not aware of it 16 17 Well this is from the Office of General A recall 18 Q I probably was aware of it but I don't I don't have any specific recollection Okay So let's go back to your -- you 19 can just put it there -- the um your effort to 20 gain approval from the Department of Justice for 21 these techniques 22 that approval you explained to the Department of 23 Justice didn't you that the techniques were 24 based on experience with the SERE program right 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 96 A You -- in doing in seeking Our lawyers did Page 97 1 Q Mm-hmm Let's -- in your -- if you go 2 to your declaration and turn if you would to 3 Exhibit L 4 MR BENNETT 5 MR LUSTBERG 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 7 12 24 p m Can we take a minute Absolutely yes The time is Off the record 8 Whereupon the lunch recess was 9 taken 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 11 1 03 p m 12 13 The time is We're back on the record MR LUSTBERG Thank you BY MR LUSTBERG 14 Q Mr Rodriguez before the lunch break 15 we were discussing the process whereby you sought 16 and obtained legal authorization for the for the 17 enhanced interrogation technique program 18 Do you remember that 19 A Yes 20 Q And when you sought that that approval 21 it was based upon what you had learned from 22 Drs Mitchell and Jessen with regard to the SERE 23 program correct 24 A Correct 25 Q Okay and what exactly were you told ACLU-RDI 6806 p 97 Page 98 1 about the applicability of the SERE program to 2 these to these techniques 3 4 MR JAMES SMITH BY MR LUSTBERG 5 6 Objection Q Let me be clear -- the question is withdrawn 7 It's a good objection What were you told by Drs Mitchell and 8 Jessen about the applicability of the SERE program 9 to these techniques 10 11 A That there was a good chance it could work 12 Q Were you told -- was there any 13 discussion of whether the differences between the 14 SERE program which is applied to students what 15 the differences would be between that program and 16 applying these to detainees in captivity 17 A Well I don't remember a particular 18 discussion about that but I'm sure that it was 19 considered -- 20 MR BENNETT 21 22 You answered the question BY MR LUSTBERG 23 Q You don't remember a discussion of that 24 A I don't remember a discussion about 25 that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 98 Page 99 1 Q Okay 2 So -MR BENNETT Don't speculate 3 Don't assume 4 but not speculation or guesswork 5 MR LUSTBERG 6 MR BENNETT Q Let me know when you've had a chance to look at that Exhibit 18 11 A Okay 12 13 I know you are BY MR LUSTBERG 9 10 I'm happy with speculation or guesswork 7 8 He's entitled to full answers Witness peruses document BY MR LUSTBERG 14 Q I'm actually just going to ask you about 15 a sentence on the first and into the second page 16 but feel free to read the whole document if you 17 want 18 A Okay 19 Q Just let me know when you're ready 20 A Okay 21 Witness peruses document 22 THE WITNESS 23 BY MR LUSTBERG 24 25 Okay Q Just directing your attention to the bottom of the first page -- well first of all ACLU-RDI 6806 p 99 Page 100 1 have you ever seen this document before 2 A I don't recollect seeing this document 3 Q At the bottom of the first page it says 4 A bottom line in considering the new measures 5 proposed for use at blank is that subject is 6 being held in solitary confinement against his 7 will without legal representation as an enemy of 8 our country our society and our people 9 Therefore while the techniques described in 10 headquarters meetings and below are administered 11 to student volunteers in the U S in a harmless 12 way with no measurable impact on the psyche of 13 the volunteer we do not believe we can assure the 14 same here for a man forced through these processes 15 and who will be made to believe this is the future 16 course of the remainder of his life 17 blank COB and blank personnel will make every 18 effort possible to ensure that subject is not 19 permanently physically or mentally harmed but we 20 should not say at the outset of this process that 21 there is no risk 22 23 Station Did you ever -- have you ever -- you haven't seen that before 24 A I don't think I've seen it 25 Q Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 100 Did you have discussions along Page 101 1 those lines with Drs Mitchell or Jessen 2 3 A I don't remember having any discussions with them on that 4 Q When you sought approval for their 5 enhanced interrogation technique program was was 6 this information that was provided by you at 7 least to the Department of Justice 8 A What information 9 Q This what I just read the fact that 10 there was -- we should not state at the outset of 11 this process that there is no risk because this 12 is different than the CO program 13 A I don't recall that 14 Q Okay Do you have any recollection at 15 all of either Dr Mitchell or Dr Jessen having a 16 discussion with you about the distinctions between 17 the application of these techniques in the context 18 of the SERE program versus in the context of a 19 detainee 20 A I don't recall that 21 Q Okay I'm going to read you -- and I 22 can show it to you if you wish but I'm going to 23 read you a page from the CIA Office of Inspector 24 General report 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 101 You've seen that report right Page 102 1 A Yes 2 Q You've seen that report 3 A I saw that report many years ago 4 Q I just want to get your reaction to this 5 sentence 6 Finally the Agency presented OLC -- 7 that's Office of Legal Counsel -- with a 8 psychological profile of Abu Zubaydah with the 9 conclusions of officials and psychologists 10 associated with the SERE program that the use of 11 EITs would cause no long-term mental harm 12 relied on these representations to support its 13 conclusion that no physical harm or prolonged 14 mental harm would result from the use on him of 15 the EITs including the waterboard 16 17 OLC Do you agree with that A 18 Yes MR JAMES SMITH Before you answer 19 that question could you favor us with an 20 exhibit number and page that you're reading 21 from 22 23 MR LUSTBERG Certainly was it was previously Exhibit 10 24 MR JAMES SMITH 25 MR LUSTBERG ACLU-RDI 6806 p 102 So it Okay And it's paragraph Page 103 1 43 of what was previously marked as Exhibit 2 10 3 MR JAMES SMITH 4 Thank you That's on page 20 5 THE WITNESS The question was do I 6 agree the assertion that the enhanced 7 interrogation techniques would not cause 8 permanent harm correct 9 BY MR LUSTBERG 10 11 Q Do you agree that that was the information that was provided to OLC by the CIA 12 A I don't know that 13 Q Mm-hmm so you don't you don't know 14 whether whether that was the representation that 15 was made to the to OLC 16 A I do not know that 17 Q Okay Were you involved in putting 18 together the submission to the Department of 19 Justice 20 A I was not 21 Q Just actually -- sorry Okay I read 22 you a passage from that OLC report and there's a 23 footnote that I'm now going to read you and see 24 what your reaction is to that 25 happy to show it to you if it's easier ACLU-RDI 6806 p 103 And again I'm Page 104 1 MR SMITH 2 Larry you said the OLC report 3 MR LUSTBERG 4 you're right 5 It's the OIG's report 6 No It's the -- you're correct I apologize MR JAMES SMITH 7 You're right This is Exhibit 10 you're talking about 8 MR LUSTBERG 9 what it is right 10 Correct Exhibit 10 That is I just want to make sure you're following 11 MR JAMES SMITH As long as you 12 tell me the exhibit and page I'll be able to 13 follow 14 15 MR LUSTBERG BY MR LUSTBERG 16 17 It is Exhibit 10 Q I'm now reading from footnote 26 on page 21 of Exhibit 10 18 According to the Chief Medical 19 Services OMS was neither consulted nor involved 20 in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits 21 of EIT nor provided with the OTS report cited in 22 the OLC opinion 23 abstracts of the OTS report OMS contends that the 24 reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT 25 review was exaggerated at least as it related to ACLU-RDI 6806 p 104 In retrospect based on the OLC Page 105 1 the waterboard and that the power of the EIT was 2 appreciably overstated in the report 3 Furthermore OMS contends that the expertise of 4 the SERE psychologist interrogators on the 5 waterboard was probably misrepresented at that 6 time as the SERE waterboard experience was so 7 different from the subsequent agency usage as to 8 make it almost irrelevant 9 according to OMS there was no a priori reason to Consequently 10 believe that applying the waterboard with the 11 frequency and intensity with which it was used by 12 the psychologist interrogators was either 13 efficacious or medically safe 14 What's your reaction to that 15 MR JAMES SMITH 16 MR BENNETT 17 form of the question 18 mean by reaction 19 Well I object to the I don't know what you BY MR LUSTBERG 20 21 Objection Q Fair enough I'll I'll restate it Let me break it down 22 Do you believe in retrospect that that 23 the -- let's take it piece by piece -- that -- 24 withdrawn 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 105 It says OMS contends that the Page 106 1 expertise of the SERE psychologist interrogators 2 on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at 3 the time as the SERE waterboard experience is so 4 different from the subsequent agency usage as to 5 make it almost irrelevant 6 7 Was that a matter that was discussed with you 8 A The OIG report 9 Q No The idea that the waterboard 10 experience is so different from the subsequent 11 agency -- the SERE waterboard experience is so 12 different from the subsequent agency usage 13 A No 14 Q It was not discussed with you 15 A No 16 Q So let me make sure I understand 17 Drs Mitchell and Jessen advocated for a 18 particular set of enhanced interrogation 19 techniques based upon their SERE experience 20 correct 21 A Correct 22 Q But there was never a discussion about 23 whether that experience was actually relevant to 24 the experience of detainees is that correct 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 106 A Perhaps there was a discussion somewhere Page 107 1 in the agency I am sure there was 2 Q Fair enough With you 3 A Not with me that I recall 4 Q Okay Have you done any analysis 5 yourself of whether there is a difference between 6 the application of these techniques in the SERE 7 school setting versus in the setting of a detainee 8 in captivity 9 A No 10 Q Have you asked anybody any questions 11 about that because -- well did you have -- have 12 you had -- do you have any concerns about that as 13 you sit here right now 14 A No 15 Q Why is that 16 A There's no reason for it 17 Q So you have no concerns at all that 18 there's a -- that the experience in the SERE 19 setting might be so different from the experience 20 in the detainee setting that it would be wrong to 21 draw conclusions about the harmfulness or 22 harmlessness of the technique based upon what 23 happened in the SERE school 24 A No I don't 25 Q And again why is that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 107 Page 108 1 A I just don't 2 Q And you don't because you don't think 3 that the differences are germane 4 5 A I just don't have any any idea I mean I assume that -- 6 MR BENNETT Don't assume 7 THE WITNESS I believe that the 8 experiences actually worked very well and 9 therefore were successful so the classroom 10 instruction at SERE helped us tremendously 11 BY MR LUSTBERG 12 Q 13 So let me just break that down You think that the the classroom 14 setting in SERE is close enough to what happened 15 to somebody in captivity that those experiences 16 are a good way of measuring whether there's harm 17 A Yes 18 Q Okay and again did you ever raise 19 yourself raise that question with anybody 20 A No 21 Q And when you say that that all -- that 22 this was successful what you mean is that from 23 your perspective it got good results 24 A It got good results 25 Q Mm-hmm and so the fact that it got good ACLU-RDI 6806 p 108 Page 109 1 results leads you to believe that it was worth 2 doing even if there were differences between the 3 SERE classroom and and the detainee in captivity 4 5 A To be perfectly honest I've never thought about it 6 Q I think you said before you had no you 7 have no personal experience yourself with SERE is 8 that right 9 A True 10 Q You've never been to a SERE classroom 11 A No 12 Q Just a couple more questions on this 13 subject 14 Many of the -- tell me if this is 15 correct Many of the detainees that were 16 captured including Abu Zubaydah were wounded or 17 injured at the time right 18 A Not true 19 Q That is not true 20 A That is not true and most of the things 21 we're discussing so far is Abu Zubaydah not 22 others 23 Q Right I'm asking you the question 24 of -- so Abu Zubaydah was was wounded at this 25 time ACLU-RDI 6806 p 109 Page 110 1 A He was yes 2 Q Okay and other detainees -- were there 3 other detainees in your knowledge who were 4 wounded at the time they were taken into 5 captivity 6 7 A wounded 8 9 Perhaps but most of them were not Q Okay For someone who was wounded would that be a different experience than what 10 they had to your knowledge that had occurred in 11 the SERE setting 12 A I do not know 13 Q So you don't know whether SERE students 14 were were wounded or injured at the time that -- 15 A I assumed they were not 16 THE REPORTER I'm sorry I didn't 17 hear the end of the question 18 know whether they were wounded or -- or 19 injured something at the time or 20 something 21 You didn't BY MR LUSTBERG 22 Q So you don't know whether SERE students 23 at the time they were they were experiencing 24 these techniques were wounded or injured do you 25 know ACLU-RDI 6806 p 110 Page 111 1 A I do not know 2 Q Okay 3 Let me ask you this Were you concerned 4 at all that some some of the CIA officials who 5 were or others working with them who were 6 applying these techniques would sometimes go 7 beyond what they were permitted to do 8 A Yes 9 Q And how did -- what did you do with 10 respect to that concern 11 A When we found out we reported it 12 self-reported and turned it over to the IG the 13 Inspector General 14 15 Q Mm-hmm Why were you concerned that that would happen 16 A In every endeavor of this sort people 17 do stupid things and don't follow regulation and 18 eventually some people did 19 20 Q an endeavor of what sort 21 22 When you say an endeavor of this sort A A big covert-action complex program involving so many moving parts 23 Q So in a big complex program with many 24 moving parts some people are going to step over 25 the line correct ACLU-RDI 6806 p 111 Page 112 1 2 A things yes 3 4 Some people are going to do stupid Q Do you have any view of whether that would be likely to happen in the SERE school 5 A I have no view 6 Q Okay 7 The SERE school participants were there voluntarily Are you aware of that 8 A Yes 9 Q Do you think that that makes a 10 difference in terms of whether they were likely to 11 suffer -- strike that 12 So they could leave at any time right 13 A Correct 14 Q Do you think that makes a difference in 15 terms of the psychological damage that they would 16 suffer as opposed to detainees who could not leave 17 whenever they wanted to 18 19 A The detainees could stop it if they wanted to 20 Q So your answer is that because the 21 detainees could stop it by giving the answers that 22 you wanted them to give they were there 23 voluntarily as well 24 25 A yes ACLU-RDI 6806 p 112 If that's the way you want to put it Page 113 1 2 Q you Well that's not the way -- I'm asking 3 Were they there voluntarily A They were not there voluntarily but 4 they could stop the interrogation if they agreed 5 to comply 6 Q Let's talk about Abu Zubaydah for a 7 second Even after he began to comply he was 8 still waterboarded right 9 A Yes 10 Q And even though Drs Mitchell and Jessen 11 recommended that he not be waterboarded anymore 12 it continued right 13 A Correct 14 Q And that was because it was still within 15 that 30-day period right 16 A No 17 Q That's not true 18 A No 19 Q Okay So if you could -- you have 20 Exhibit 4 which is the manuscript 21 one It's this big 22 A This one 23 Q Yes the manuscript of Dr Mitchell's 24 book 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 113 MR BENNETT Page 4 Page 114 1 MR LUSTBERG 2 MR BENNETT 3 MR LUSTBERG 4 5 Page 88 Exhibit 4 Exhibit 4 page 88 Mm-hmm Actually let's go to -- bear with me BY MR LUSTBERG 6 Q Okay On page 88 line 15 it says As 7 Abu Zubaydah began to offer up information that 8 the targeters and analysts on site judged valuable 9 and wanted more of we asked for permission to 10 stop using EITs especially the waterboard 11 Do you see that 12 A Yes 13 Q To our surprise however headquarters 14 ordered us to continue waterboarding him 15 Do you see that 16 A Yes 17 Q Is that true 18 A Yes 19 Q Were you involved in ordering 20 Drs Mitchell and Jessen to continue to waterboard 21 Abu Zubaydah 22 A Yes 23 Q Why 24 A Well I was the head of it and my 25 analysts were concerned that perhaps he was not ACLU-RDI 6806 p 114 Page 115 1 compliant 2 Q It says For several days -- starting 3 on line 18 For several days in a row 4 Dr Mitchell writes we questioned the necessity 5 of continuing the EITs but every day we received 6 cables phone calls or emails instructing us to 7 continue waterboarding Abu Zubaydah 8 Bruce and I pushed back hard and threatened to 9 quit At one point We were told quote 'He's turning you 10 You are not turning him ' 11 dealing with mid-level CTC officials really 12 pissed us off by saying 'You've lost your 13 spines ' 14 waterboarding Abu Zubaydah and another attack 15 happened in the United States it would be 'your 16 fault ' 17 A I I don't know what mid-level officials were telling Mitchell 20 21 They insisted that if we didn't keep Is that to your knowledge true 18 19 The officers we were Q Did you direct any mid-level officials to say that kind of thing to Mitchell 22 A No 23 Q So if you turn if you turn to page 90 24 middle of the page line 10 it says -- it refers 25 to a videoconference and it says Jose Rodriguez ACLU-RDI 6806 p 115 Page 116 1 chaired the videoconference My take was that he 2 was trying to be an honest arbitrator of the 3 issue 4 attack inside the United States and wanted to do 5 it in the most straightforward way possible 6 was being assailed by advocates on both sides of 7 the argument but seemed objective and not locked 8 in on any one approach 9 and voiced our opinion that we didn't need to He seemed focused on preventing another He We showed the videotape 10 continue using EITs especially waterboarding 11 Not surprisingly some in the room with Rodriguez 12 objected 13 insisted we continue waterboarding Abu Zubaydah 14 for at least 30 days 15 that my answer months before to Jose Rodriguez's 16 question about how long it would take for me to 17 believe a person subjected to EITs 'either didn't 18 have the information or was going to take it to 19 the grave with them' had come back to haunt us 20 pointed out that comment was made before 21 waterboarding was incorporated into the list of 22 potential EITs and didn't apply anymore 23 One or two objected vigorously They That's when it dawned on me My question is Is Dr Mitchell 24 correct that the reason he was ordered to 25 continue waterboarding was because it was still ACLU-RDI 6806 p 116 I Page 117 1 within the 30-day period 2 A No 3 Q He's wrong about that 4 A Yes 5 Q To your knowledge were the long-term 6 effects of the use of SERE techniques ever 7 studied 8 A Not to my knowledge 9 Q Were -- how about are you aware of any 10 studies on the use of those techniques with regard 11 to people who are being held against their will 12 A No 13 Q Do you have any knowledge about whether 14 the use of the enhanced interrogation techniques 15 would be expected to produce post-traumatic stress 16 disorder 17 A No 18 Q Did you ever ask anybody whether the 19 effects of -- whether the use of the enhanced 20 interrogation techniques would would be expected 21 to produce post-traumatic stress disorder 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 117 A No MR LUSTBERG Exhibit 39 This is going to be Page 118 1 Exhibit 39 was marked for 2 identification 3 BY MR LUSTBERG 4 Q It's a long document and I'm going to 5 be asking about a section on the page that has the 6 number Bates stamp 001763 at the bottom 7 second to the last page 8 want me to ask the question It's the Let me know when you 9 A Let me look and see what else -- 10 Q Yeah take your time 11 Witness peruses document 12 MR LUSTBERG While you're doing 13 that for the record -- Mr Smith and I 14 discussed this as well 15 before lunch about those documents that we 16 regarded as business records I may have been 17 too narrow in just limiting them to cables 18 This is a memo and our our agreement that 19 these are -- as to business records 20 encompasses this whole set of documents 21 correct In my representation 22 MR JAMES SMITH 23 clear the this that you're making 24 reference to is Exhibit 39 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 118 MR LUSTBERG Just so we're Correct Page 119 1 MR JAMES SMITH Okay but I 2 thought that what we had contemplated was all 3 of the documents produced by the government 4 MR LUSTBERG 100 percent 5 MR JAMES SMITH We're going to 6 stipulate that they're authentic and we're 7 going to stipulate that we don't need to call 8 a custodian to qualify them as business 9 records 10 MR LUSTBERG Correct and that 11 you don't need to -- none of us need to 12 question Mr Rodriguez as to their -- whether 13 they satisfy the requirements of business 14 records 15 16 MR JAMES SMITH wanted to question Mr Bennett about that 17 18 19 20 21 22 I thought you MR LUSTBERG That would be much MR BENNETT And then you'll have more fun my witness fee MR LUSTBERG We'll come up with that quickly 23 Discussion held off the record 24 THE WITNESS 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 119 Okay Go ahead Page 120 1 BY MR LUSTBERG 2 Q 3 Thank you On the page I referenced which is Bates 4 number 001763 there is a paragraph 7 and under 5 paragraph 7 there's a subsection that says The 6 absence of any specific intent to inflict severe 7 physical or mental pain or suffering 8 dated 13 July 2002 OLC advised CIA that 'specific 9 intent can be negated by a showing of good faith In a letter 10 If for example efforts were made to 11 determine what long-term impact if any specific 12 conduct would have and it was learned that the 13 conduct would not result in prolonged mental harm 14 any actions taken relying on that advice would 15 have to be undertaken in good faith 16 diligence to meet this standard might include such 17 actions as surveying professional literature 18 consulting with experts or evidence gained from 19 past experience ' 20 Due Do you see that 21 A Yes 22 Q Was -- to your knowledge were efforts 23 made to determine what long-term impact if any 24 specific conduct would have 25 conduct I'm referring to here is Dr Mitchell and ACLU-RDI 6806 p 120 And the specific Page 121 1 Dr Jessen's enhanced interrogation techniques 2 A I do not know 3 Q Okay 4 This is referencing a letter from July 13 2002 from OLC to CIA 5 Do you remember such a letter 6 A No 7 Q Okay So do you do you have any 8 recollection of the Office of Legal Counsel at DoJ 9 advising CIA that that due diligence to meet the 10 standard might include such actions as surveying 11 professional literature consulting with experts 12 or evidence gained from past experience 13 14 A No no I don't have any recollection of that 15 Q Okay So did you in your capacity as 16 the director of CTC at that time order or request 17 anyone to conduct the type of research or due 18 diligence that's described in that paragraph 19 A No 20 Q Would you agree that that the long-term 21 effects of the enhanced interrogation techniques 22 was never explored in real depth 23 A I do not know 24 Q Do you think it should have been 25 A I don't know ACLU-RDI 6806 p 121 Page 122 1 Q Do you think it's possible that the 2 enhanced interrogation techniques could result in 3 long-term harm 4 MR JAMES SMITH 5 MR BENNETT Objection 6 THE WITNESS May I answer it MR BENNETT Well I object to the 7 or -- 8 9 word possible but go ahead if you can 10 THE WITNESS 11 12 Objection Go ahead Can you repeat the question please BY MR LUSTBERG 13 Q Yes I understand Let me try to 14 reword it in a way which will satisfy Mr Bennett 15 which is really what I want to do here 16 17 MR BENNETT Thank you very much BY MR LUSTBERG 18 Q Do you think that the enhanced 19 interrogation techniques could result in long-term 20 harm 21 A No 22 Q Why is that 23 A It never did I don't think any of the 24 individuals that we held in captivity has suffered 25 any long-term effects ACLU-RDI 6806 p 122 Page 123 1 Q And what do you base that on 2 A Just what I've known from the project 3 and from what I've been told 4 Q So you've received information that all 5 of the detainees who were subjected to the 6 enhanced interrogation techniques are fine and 7 have not suffered long-term harm 8 9 A I have not received information on all On some 10 Q So have you received any information 11 that any of them are suffering any long-term 12 physical or psychological effects 13 A No 14 Q I'm I'm sure you will remember this 15 back-and-forth with Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes 16 where you analogized the stress positions to 17 working out in a gym 18 A Correct 19 Q Yeah Do you think that's a good 20 analogy to what the the kind of discomfort that 21 the stress positions cause 22 A I can only imagine 23 Q So you don't know is the answer 24 A I don't know 25 Q And how about sleep deprivation do you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 123 Page 124 1 really think sleep deprivation is a lot like jet 2 lag 3 A Having suffered from jet lag and not 4 being able to sleep for two or three days I can 5 imagine it being a very devastating thing to go 6 through 7 Q How is to your knowledge sleep 8 deprivation effected 9 deprived of sleep under -- using the enhanced 10 That is how were people interrogation techniques 11 A They get confused They they have a 12 harder time trying to figure out what they said in 13 the past 14 very difficult to keep up lying when you are 15 sleep-deprived 16 Q They become disoriented Okay It's just So I asked that question poorly 17 because what I really meant to ask you was 18 did people there do to deprive the detainees of 19 sleep 20 A Didn't let them sleep 21 Q How did they how did they not let them 22 sleep 23 A 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 124 What What did they do to not let them sleep I assume that they woke them up MR BENNETT Don't assume Page 125 1 BY MR LUSTBERG 2 Q You observed some interrogations right 3 A No 4 Q You never observed any 5 A No 6 Q How about on videotape 7 A No 8 Q You never saw one once 9 A No There was a little videotape one 10 time but it was just a -- but it was not a a 11 videotape of anything that happened 12 13 Q So do you have any direct knowledge of the way in which people were kept awake 14 A No 15 Q So not for example pouring water on 16 them or or any other techniques 17 what was used to keep them awake 18 A No 19 Q No idea 20 A No 21 Q One moment 22 You don't know I'm getting close to being done here 23 In your -- in what you've written about 24 Drs Mitchell and Jessen you have talked about 25 the fact that they were not the ones who would ACLU-RDI 6806 p 125 Page 126 1 decide who these techniques would be used on is 2 that right 3 A Correct 4 Q Who -- well never mind because that's 5 going to get an objection 6 Were they -- did you tell them that they 7 were not that they were not the ones to decide 8 who the enhanced interrogation techniques would be 9 used on 10 A They were contractors independent 11 contractors 12 contractors don't make decisions that the staff 13 people are the ones making decisions 14 Q Everybody knows that independent So even though they designed the 15 program they were not the ones to decide who it 16 would be used on is that right 17 A Correct 18 Q And to your knowledge based upon your 19 interaction with them did they know that their 20 techniques would be used on people that they did 21 not select 22 A I don't know that 23 Q At the end of your declaration 24 Mr Rodriguez you have a section on the SSCI 25 report beginning on page 19 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 126 Page 127 1 So beginning on paragraph 121 -- in 2 paragraph 122 you say that The SSCI Report is an 3 errant one-sided assault on the CIA's EIT Program 4 that reaches numerous unsupportable and baffling 5 conclusions 6 Then you give an example on paragraph -- 7 in paragraph 125 where you say that the SSCI 8 Report states that on July 17 2002 National 9 Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice requested a 10 delay in the approval of the interrogation 11 techniques 12 the CIA's use of EITs subject to DoJ approval 13 In fact on that date Rice approved Do you see that 14 A Yes 15 Q How -- is that the only example -- it's 16 the only example you give of ways in which the 17 SSCI report is errant and one-sided 18 other examples Are there 19 A Of course 20 Q Can you provide another one 21 A The allegation that the enhanced 22 interrogation program did not work and that no 23 value came from them is totally erroneous 24 travesty 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 127 Q It's a So you believe that the that what the Page 128 1 SSCI report says is that the enhanced 2 interrogation program did not work and that no 3 value came from it 4 A Correct 5 Q Let me ask you this 6 The CIA wrote a response to the SSCI report right 7 A Correct 8 Q Did you read that 9 A Yes I did 10 Q Did you participate in assisting to 11 draft that 12 A No 13 Q Is that -- would you say that that 14 response was also errant or one-sided 15 16 A I don't think so but I don't I don't remember it 17 Q Okay Let me show you a couple of 18 conclusions from that report 19 already marked 20 A What page 21 Q Page 25 22 Sorry It's Exhibit 21 There's two different page 25s 23 At least two 24 page numbers go again and -- hold on one second 25 I'm sorry ACLU-RDI 6806 p 128 Toward the end of the report the Just give us one minute to make sure Page 129 1 we have the right page 2 A Okay 3 Q Sorry 4 Okay I got it So there's numerous -- this 5 number a couple of different times 6 page 25 which is sort of -- of course these are 7 not Bates-numbered so this is not that easy to 8 work with but it's about halfway through 9 part of conclusion 10 10 A It's Conclusion 10 11 MR JAMES SMITH 12 The second The second series of numbers 13 MR LUSTBERG 14 That's what I'm looking 15 MR JAMES SMITH 16 MR LUSTBERG Exhibit 21 Correct So let me 17 let me see -- Mr Schuelke maybe has a good 18 way to do it 19 BY MR LUSTBERG 20 Q So yes this is the second series of 21 numbers so if you look you'll see it goes 1 22 through 20 -- it goes -- it starts and then it 23 renumbers again 24 25 You're responsible for this confusing document aren't you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 129 Page 130 1 A I had nothing do with it 2 MR SCHUELKE 3 Larry does this page have Title 12 -- 4 MR LUSTBERG No It starts at 5 the top of the page page 25 the very top of 6 the page starts with CIA remains grateful 7 MR BENNETT 8 Here it is here 9 Discussion was held off the 10 record 11 MR BENNETT 12 MR LUSTBERG 13 Okay We got it here You got it BY MR LUSTBERG 14 Q 15 Anyway you got it What I wanted to ask you about was -- it 16 says we agree -- in the first bullet point it 17 says We agree with the study however that 18 they being Drs Mitchell and Jessen were 19 heavily reliant on views of the -- I'm sorry 20 says CIA remains grateful to blank and blank 21 who applied -- let me 22 Withdrawn 23 Yeah I know The second bullet point Oh I see As discussed 24 in our response to conclusion 17 we agree that 25 CIA should have done more from the beginning of ACLU-RDI 6806 p 130 It Page 131 1 the program to ensure there was no conflict of 2 interest real or potential with regard to the 3 contractor psychologists who designed and executed 4 the techniques while also playing a role in 5 evaluating their effectiveness as well as other 6 closely related tasks 7 Do you see that 8 A Yes I see it 9 Q First of all do you -- first of all I 10 mean obviously you agree that the contractor 11 psychologists that we're talking about are 12 Drs Mitchell and Jessen right 13 A Yes 14 Q And that they were the ones -- and the 15 reason you say that is because they were in fact 16 the ones who designed and executed the techniques 17 but do you also agree that their company or they 18 played a role in evaluating their effectiveness 19 MR JAMES SMITH 20 MR BENNETT Go ahead if you know 21 THE WITNESS Yes 22 Objection BY MR LUSTBERG 23 Q They did 24 A They played a role yes 25 Q And do you think do you think that's ACLU-RDI 6806 p 131 Page 132 1 problematic 2 3 A a role in assessing their effectiveness 4 5 No because we also -- the agency played Q The agency also assessed their effectiveness 6 A Yes 7 Q Were you involved in that 8 A Not formally but in in measuring their 9 accomplishments I was 10 Q Later on -- let me see if I have the 11 right numbers here 12 you look at conclusion 17 on the top of page 48 13 it says The CIA improperly used two private 14 contractors with no relevant experience to 15 develop operate and assess the CIA detention 16 interrogation program 17 formed a company specifically for the purpose of 18 expanding their detention and interrogation work 19 with the CIA 20 aspects of the CIA detention interrogation program 21 were outsourced to the company 22 of the base contract with the company with all 23 options exercised was in excess of $180 million 24 In 2007 the CIA signed a multi-year 25 indemnification agreement protecting the company ACLU-RDI 6806 p 132 On page 48 same series if In 2005 the contractors Shortly thereafter virtually all By 2006 the value Page 133 1 and its employees from legal liability 2 3 That's the language from the SSCI report right 4 A This is from the CIA response 5 Q So they're they're responding to that 6 A Right 7 Q And on the next page it says We 8 acknowledge that the agency erred in permitting 9 the contractors to assess the effectiveness of 10 enhanced techniques 11 Do you see that 12 A The next -- 13 Q Next page 14 A Page 49 15 Q 49 yes at the very top 16 They should not have been considered 17 for such a role given their financial interest in 18 continued contracts with the CIA 19 Do you agree with that 20 A Yes 21 Q During the time period that the enhanced 22 interrogation techniques were being used were 23 they being evaluated 24 A The techniques or -- 25 Q Yeah the effectiveness of them ACLU-RDI 6806 p 133 Page 134 1 A Yes they were 2 Q And was -- were Drs Mitchell and Jessen 3 involved in that evaluation 4 A The evaluation was based on results 5 Q And the results were -- and you felt 6 that the results were positive and so that 7 therefore the techniques were good 8 9 10 A The results was incredible very valuable intelligence that came to us that we didn't have before 11 Q And in assessing the results was there 12 any consideration at all given to the physical or 13 psychological harm that was being inflicted upon 14 the detainees 15 16 A inflicted 17 18 We didn't think that any was was being Q My question is So that was so that was evaluated as part of the program 19 A No 20 Q It was not 21 A No 22 Q I was reading through the cables from 23 Abu Zubaydah's interrogation and time after time 24 they talk about how the result is no new threat 25 information ACLU-RDI 6806 p 134 I can show those to you if you Page 135 1 wish 2 Do you remember those cables 3 A It's been 15 years 4 Q Okay 5 Let's show them to him Let's start with 1758 because that's 6 also -- I tell you what Let's do this 7 your declaration Exhibit N 8 This is a cable regarding the 9 interrogation of Abu Zubaydah correct Look at 10 A Yes 11 Q And it it goes through a number of of 12 the application of -- I'm sorry -- the application 13 of a number of enhanced interrogation techniques 14 right 15 A Yes 16 Q It describes walling and it describes 17 the confinement box and in paragraph 9 it says 18 that the subject has not provided any new threat 19 or elaborated on any old threat information 20 Do you see that 21 A Yes 22 Q When you read that kind of thing was 23 there any sense that the enhanced interrogation -- 24 that their enhanced interrogation techniques were 25 not being effective ACLU-RDI 6806 p 135 Page 136 1 A At that point 2 Q At that point what 3 A At that point they were not being 4 effective 5 Q Eventually they were Okay In any event so at any given 6 point if there was not any new intelligence that 7 wasn't really the point the real point was you 8 wanted to look at it overall right 9 A What do you mean 10 Q You wanted to see whether it was 11 successful overall 12 A My objective was to obtain intelligence 13 to protect the homeland and to save American 14 lives and this program produced it 15 the way I measured it 16 Q Okay That was my So the way you measured the 17 program was by virtue of whether it provided the 18 intelligence that you were looking for 19 A Not only provided intelligence but 20 allowed us to go and capture other people and stop 21 plots and protect the homeland 22 Q 23 I understand Okay Just one or two other areas that 24 I really just a little bit that I want to go into 25 I want to talk about the particular plaintiffs in ACLU-RDI 6806 p 136 Page 137 1 this case and I want to -- so take a look at your 2 report 3 start with paragraph paragraph -- I'm sorry -- 4 90 nine zero page 15 I'm sorry 5 Your declaration Let's And um the -- one of the things it 6 says in paragraph 90 is that under subsection 3 7 it says Rahman was declared an 'enemy 8 combatant ' 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes 11 Q And you say that that is your 12 understanding 13 A Correct 14 Q Where did you get that understanding 15 A He was an -- he was declared an enemy 16 combatant 17 Q So if the judge in this case has held 18 that the defendants have presented no evidence 19 that Gul Rahman was determined to be an enemy 20 combatant prior to his death is the judge wrong 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 137 MR JAMES SMITH Objection Come on Mr Lustberg MR LUSTBERG That's a perfectly appropriate question MR JAMES SMITH How would he know Page 138 1 if the judge is wrong 2 MR LUSTBERG I'm asking him if -- 3 MR JAMES SMITH Why don't we ask 4 the government if they gave us all the 5 documents we're entitled to 6 MR LUSTBERG 7 opportunity to ask your questions 8 9 THE WITNESS I don't know BY MR LUSTBERG 10 11 You'll have an Q Your understanding from somewhere was that he was an enemy combatant 12 A Yes 13 Q Did you ever see a piece of paper that 14 said that 15 A I don't recall 16 Q In paragraph 91 it talks about how 17 Mr Salim the plaintiff here was designated as 18 an enemy combatant 19 Do you see that 20 A Yes 21 Q Let me show you Exhibit 40 22 Exhibit 40 was marked for 23 identification 24 BY MR LUSTBERG 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 138 Q Have you ever seen this before Page 139 1 A No 2 Q So this was not certainly not something 3 that you had seen before you signed the 4 declaration saying that that Mr Salim was not an 5 enemy combatant right 6 7 A I don't remember these individuals Salim or Soud 8 Q You don't remember any of them 9 A I don't 10 Q And when you go through -- so do you 11 have any personal knowledge as to whether he was 12 or was not an enemy combatant 13 A No 14 Q And is that true with regard to 15 Mr Rahman and Mr Soud as well 16 17 A It's my understanding but I don't have personal direct knowledge 18 Q Okay I see where you say for example 19 in paragraph 102 It is my understanding that 20 Dr Mitchell came in brief contact with Rahman 21 even though he was not classified as an HVD 22 Do you see that 23 A Yes 24 Q When you say it's your understanding 25 that means you don't have personal knowledge ACLU-RDI 6806 p 139 Page 140 1 right 2 A Correct 3 Q And when you say in paragraph 105 It 4 is my understanding that Dr Mitchell observed 5 Rahman one evening at Cobalt while Dr Mitchell 6 was traveling with Abd Al-Nashiri as he was 7 rendered to black-site Green that was also not 8 based on your personal knowledge it was based 9 upon your understanding 10 A Correct 11 Q When you say it's based on your 12 understanding that's an understanding you got by 13 speaking to somebody else 14 A By seeing these and seeing some of 15 the -- 16 Q By seeing these being 17 A Exhibits exhibits here 18 Q Okay What what exhibit were you 19 looking at in order to come to the conclusion that 20 Dr Mitchell came in brief contact with Rahman 21 even though he was not classified as an HVD 22 23 A I don't remember 24 25 I'll have to go through it Q But you you think you saw a piece of paper that said that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 140 Page 141 1 A Yes 2 Q Okay and likewise with regard to your 3 understanding that Dr Mitchell observed Rahman 4 you got that from some document 5 A Yes 6 Q You just don't -- 7 A I think I think it was the Gul the 8 Rahman investigation 9 10 Q You think you learned that from the Rahman investigation 11 12 Okay A I think so The report the last -- the IG report 13 Q If you take a look just generally look 14 at paragraphs -- so I don't have to do this with 15 each one -- 102 105 through 108 110 and 114 16 those are all paragraphs that begin it is my 17 understanding 18 19 In each case is your understanding based upon the investigation of the Rahman death 20 A 102 103 21 Q 102 105 through 108 110 -- 22 A Yes 23 Q -- and 114 24 A Yes 25 Q Those are all based upon the report or ACLU-RDI 6806 p 141 Page 142 1 other documents that you saw 2 A Correct 3 Q Nothing that you have your own personal 4 knowledge of 5 A True 6 Q Is that right 7 A Mm-hmm 8 Q Okay 9 There's one last area I have read articles -- you probably 10 have as well -- where you're quoted as saying that 11 you want to bring back some form of now legal 12 interrogation measures like waterboarding sleep 13 deprivation and other so-called enhanced 14 interrogation methods approved by the Bush White 15 House 16 Is that the position that you've taken 17 A No 18 Q So those -- I'm sorry 19 A What I'm saying is that they need to 20 have something that goes beyond the Army Field 21 Manual 22 enhanced interrogation things can ever be brought 23 back They have already been you know given 24 away There's too much controversy 25 form of techniques that goes beyond the Army Field ACLU-RDI 6806 p 142 I I don't think that some of those Some other Page 143 1 Manual 2 Q Have you consulted with President Trump 3 or members of his administration with regard to 4 quote-unquote bringing back torture 5 A No Well we never brought -- we never 6 used torture so I don't know what you're talking 7 about 8 Q 9 Okay How about bringing back enhanced interrogation techniques 10 A No 11 Q Have you spoken with any such people 12 about bringing back black sites 13 A No 14 Q Have you spoken to the any 15 representatives of the new administration or 16 transition team about resuming a CIA interrogation 17 program 18 A No 19 Q Have you spoken to anybody about joining 20 the administration 21 A No 22 23 MR LUSTBERG That's it Thank you very much 24 THE WITNESS 25 MR LUSTBERG ACLU-RDI 6806 p 143 That's all I have You're welcome I think Mr Smith Page 144 1 probably wants to ask some questions 2 MR JAMES SMITH I do 3 Discussion was held off the 4 record 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 6 We'll go off the record for technical 7 reasons It's 2 05 p m 8 Whereupon a short recess was 9 taken 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 11 2 07 12 13 The time is Back on the record EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS BY MR JAMES SMITH 14 Q My name again still is Jim Smith and as 15 you know I represent Drs Mitchell and Jessen in 16 this case 17 18 Mr Rodriguez are you familiar with the plaintiffs' theory in this case 19 A Of enhanced interrogation 20 Q Yeah what the plaintiffs' theory is in 21 this case are you familiar with it 22 A Can you run it by me 23 Q Okay 24 Let me do a little background and then we'll get to it 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 144 A Okay Page 145 1 2 Q You mentioned in your testimony with Mr Lustberg a high-value target 3 Do you remember you used those words 4 A Yes 5 Q Is that synonymous with a high-value 6 detainee 7 A Correct 8 Q Can you tell us for the record what a 9 high-value detainee is 10 A A high-value detainee is someone who is 11 believed to have intelligence involving threats to 12 the United States its people or its interests 13 overseas 14 15 Q And are you familiar with the concept of a medium-value detainee 16 A Yes 17 Q Can you tell us what a medium-value 18 detainee is 19 A Someone involved in war against us but 20 who may not have that level of intelligence that 21 represents an immediate threat to our country 22 23 Q And are you familiar with the concept of a low-value detainee 24 A Yes 25 Q Can you tell us what a low-value ACLU-RDI 6806 p 145 Page 146 1 detainee is 2 A A lesser combatant a facilitator person 3 who is not as dangerous as a medium-level 4 detainee 5 Q And I take it that high-value detainees 6 medium-value detainees and low-value detainees 7 were all considered enemies to the United States 8 of America 9 A Yes 10 Q Now in 2001 when you started working 11 with CTC did you start using those words 12 high-value detainee medium-value detainee and 13 low-value detainee 14 A I don't recall 15 Q Can you approximate when you started 16 using those terms 17 A When we captured Abu Zubaydah 18 Q Okay 19 Now let's let's talk about that for a second 20 Was Zubaydah -- strike that 21 Which one of the three categories did 22 Zubaydah fall within 23 A High-value 24 Q And why did the government believe that 25 Mr Zubaydah was a high-value detainee ACLU-RDI 6806 p 146 Page 147 1 A Because he had come across our screen in 2 2000 regarding the millennium plots and his 3 dispatching of a terrorist to come into the US 4 through Canada to blow up LAX in California 5 Q So the government at the time of his 6 capture believed that there was information that 7 he was directly involved in a plan to blow up the 8 Los Angeles airport 9 A Correct 10 Q Now did the government also have any 11 beliefs about what relationship if any 12 Mr Zubaydah had with Osama bin Laden 13 A Yes 14 Q Can you tell us what it is 15 A Well at one point we thought he was the 16 chief of operations but we knew he was a senior 17 al-Qa'ida operative 18 Q Now at the time that Mr Zubaydah was 19 captured by the United States government what 20 relationship if any did the CTC believe that 21 Zubaydah had with Osama bin Laden 22 A As far as I can recall we we assumed 23 that he had a close relationship with Osama bin 24 Laden 25 Q ACLU-RDI 6806 p 147 Was he considered Osama bin Laden's Page 148 1 first lieutenant or one of them at least 2 A He was considered chief of operations at 3 one point 4 Mohammed but we knew him to be a senior person in 5 the organization 6 7 Q It was either him or Khalid Sheikh Now when was when was Zubaydah captured 8 A March 2002 9 Q Now in March of 2002 he was captured 10 and he was taken to I think what's referred to as 11 a black site right 12 A Correct 13 Q And I'm not asking you to tell me where 14 that black site was 15 Okay 16 A Good 17 MR BENNETT 18 19 He wouldn't tell you anyway BY MR JAMES SMITH 20 Q 21 22 Let me just make that clear Understood and that's good Now do you know sir if that black site was a site for high-value detainees 23 A We made it a site for Zubaydah at first 24 and then Nashiri second so it became a site for 25 high-value detainees ACLU-RDI 6806 p 148 Page 149 1 2 Q second 3 4 A Now let's talk about Nashiri for a Al-Nashiri was who Nashiri was responsible for blowing up the U S S Cole 5 Q And Nashiri was captured when 6 A Sometime in the fall of 2002 7 Q And he was taken to the same black site 8 where Zubaydah was kept 9 A If I recall correctly yes 10 Q And he was considered a high-value 11 detainee 12 A Yes 13 Q I want to go back for a second 14 There was a period of time was there 15 not when Zubaydah was maintained in a black site 16 and being interrogated by FBI agents and CIA 17 agents is that correct 18 A Yes 19 Q And that was before Dr Mitchell had any 20 involvement is that correct 21 A No He had some involvement in that 22 first interrogation 23 to make recommendations to the team 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 149 Q He was there to support and Now let me back up for a second I think -- at the time that Dr Mitchell Page 150 1 was hired by the CTC were you essentially the 2 captain of the ship of the black sites 3 A I was the captain of the ship of -- when 4 Abu Zubaydah was captured in March I was not the 5 director of CTC 6 Q Okay 7 A But I was involved in everything related 8 to CTC and I had a special interest in making 9 sure that this program got off the ground and got 10 off the ground well 11 12 Q Now you became the director of CTC when 13 A In May of 2002 14 Q Now when Dr Mitchell was originally 15 brought on to the team if you will why was 16 that decision made 17 A The decision was made because we had 18 impending threats of all kinds of attacks anthrax 19 and nuclear and a second wave of attacks and we 20 needed to do something different because we were 21 not getting information through traditional 22 interrogation of Abu Zubaydah 23 24 Q Okay So let's talk about that for a minute 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 150 As of the time that Dr Mitchell was Page 151 1 brought on is it fair to say that the traditional 2 forms of interrogation that were being utilized by 3 the FBI and the CIA were not giving or producing 4 results about what the government was concerned 5 about regarding impending threats 6 A They had produced two results two 7 pieces of information that were significant but 8 once he regained his strength he stopped talking 9 10 Q Okay and when was that that he stopped talking 11 A April May time frame 2002 12 Q And are you able to tell us about those 13 two pieces of information 14 A I think so 15 16 MR JOHNSON Can we have a consultation 17 MR JAMES SMITH 18 MR BENNETT 19 MR LUSTBERG 20 Let's step outside Let's go off the record 21 22 Absolutely THE VIDEOGRAPHER p m The time is 2 15 We're off the record 23 Whereupon a short recess was 24 taken 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER ACLU-RDI 6806 p 151 The time is Page 152 1 2 17 p m We're back on the record 2 MR JAMES SMITH Would you repeat 3 the question Madam Court Reporter 4 Whereupon reporter reads 5 requested material 6 THE WITNESS The two pieces of 7 information that Abu Zubaydah had divulged 8 during the first phase of that interrogation 9 was that he confirmed for us that Mukhtar -- 10 and we have seen Mukhtar in all kinds of 11 different intercepts -- was actually Khalid 12 Sheikh Mohammed 13 The second one it was very vague 14 information regarding an individual who was 15 supposed to go to the U S to detonate a WMD 16 type of device 17 where our overseas installations were able to 18 identify the individual as Jose Padilla and 19 we found where he was and we tracked him all 20 the way back to Chicago where we alerted the 21 FBI and he was arrested 22 We -- he gave us enough He actually was -- had a plan and 23 had been given $10 000 by Khalid Sheikh 24 Mohammed to blow up apartments residential 25 apartments in different parts of the U S ACLU-RDI 6806 p 152 Page 153 1 using natural gas and have them go off at 2 the same time 3 BY MR JAMES SMITH 4 Q Now you mentioned Khalid Sheikh 5 Mohammed 6 Mohammed is 7 A Can you tell us who Khalid Sheikh Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the chief of 8 operations of al-Qa'ida who actually devised the 9 9 11 plot and sold it to Osama bin Laden 10 Q 11 Okay 12 Now let's go back In the late spring early summer of 2002 Zubaydah is regaining his health correct 13 A Correct 14 Q And he clams up 15 A Correct 16 Q And at that time -- is that around or 17 about the time that the decision is made to enlist 18 the service of Dr Mitchell 19 A Dr Mitchell was already at the site 20 He was providing recommendations and observing 21 what was going on but that was about the time 22 that we knew that we had to do something 23 different 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 153 Q Okay Now you identified in your direct Page 154 1 examination with Mr Lustberg documents that were 2 marked as Exhibits J and K to the declaration that 3 you signed that's marked as Exhibit 36 in this 4 case 5 Could I ask you to get out those please A Which one 6 7 MR BENNETT BY MR JAMES SMITH 8 9 Q Exhibit 36 Let's go to item Exhibit J within Exhibit 36 10 A Exhibit 36 11 MR LUSTBERG 12 That's the declaration 13 14 J and K THE WITNESS Oh okay BY MR JAMES SMITH 15 Q Are you there sir 16 A Yes 17 So paragraph 36 of the declaration 18 Q No no 19 A Okay okay 20 Q Okay 21 A Okay 22 Q -- within Exhibit 36 -- 23 A Okay 24 Q -- you will come to a document 25 A Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 154 Exhibit 36 is your declaration If you go to Exhibit J -- Page 155 1 Q Do you recognize this document 2 A It's a document that lists the different 3 techniques 4 Q For the record is it fair to say that 5 Exhibit J at least in part represents a memo 6 that was prepared by Dr Mitchell dated July 8 7 2002 8 A I assume that's correct 9 MR BENNETT Don't assume 10 THE WITNESS Okay 11 12 correct I don't know BY MR JAMES SMITH 13 14 Q Well turn to the third page where you can see Hope this helps 15 Jim Mitchell Do you see that 16 A Okay 17 Q Okay 18 I believe it's You've seen this document before today obviously right 19 A Yes 20 Q Okay Do you recognize this as the 21 document that was put together by Dr Mitchell 22 regarding enhanced interrogation techniques 23 A I believe that's right 24 Q Okay 25 Now were you the person that asked Dr Mitchell to put this document together ACLU-RDI 6806 p 155 Page 156 1 A Yes 2 Q And just tell us so the record is 3 clear why you wanted him to prepare this 4 document 5 A We were searching for a new way of doing 6 things and this seemed like the appropriate way 7 to go and we needed to have more specific 8 information regarding what were the techniques 9 that he was talking about 10 11 Q And these are interrogation techniques that are set forth in Exhibit J right 12 A Correct 13 Q Okay and if you look at the first page 14 of Exhibit J you'll see that there's a thread of 15 emails 16 Most of the information is redacted out Do you see that 17 A Where is that 18 Q Go to the first page 19 See the from and the office and the reference and the like 20 A Mm-hmm 21 Q The government has redacted out that 22 information in the production to us 23 A Okay 24 Q Okay 25 Now do you -- you recognize these as the 12 interrogation techniques that you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 156 Page 157 1 asked Dr Mitchell to give to the CIA is that 2 correct 3 A Yes 4 Q Okay and then so we're clear item 5 number 12 makes reference to the mock burial 6 right 7 A Yes 8 Q And that interrogation technique was 9 removed 10 A True 11 Q Now let's go forward for a second 12 When Dr Mitchell was hired by the CIA 13 what specifically was he tasked to do in addition 14 to creating this method 15 A He was hired in December of 2001 to be a 16 consultant to provide advice to do applied 17 psychology 18 July we had hired him before to go to the black 19 site but when we decided that we wanted do this 20 we hired him to do this and to help us with 21 implementation of the techniques 22 23 Q When he -- when CTC hired him in Okay the implementation of the techniques on whom 24 A On Abu Zubaydah 25 Q Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 157 So is it fair to say -- Page 158 1 MR BENNETT Excuse me I object 2 Both counsel have used the phrase is it fair 3 to say and I don't know what that means 4 It means different things to different 5 people so could you rephrase that 6 MR JAMES SMITH 7 MR BENNETT 8 MR JAMES SMITH 9 I could Thank you And if I do it again it's not intentional It's just an 10 old habit that now that you tell me I should 11 get rid of it I'll work hard to do it 12 MR BENNETT 13 that intentional but go ahead 14 best shot 15 16 MR JAMES SMITH Give it your All right BY MR JAMES SMITH 17 18 I don't believe it's Q The -- so the engagement Dr Mitchell's engagement started with OTC was it 19 A Yes 20 Q And then it changed to CTC in the summer 21 of 2002 22 A I believe we gave we we paid for his 23 services when he went to the first location with 24 the FBI and that was in April of 2002 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 158 Q But by the time he created the memo Page 159 1 dated July of 2002 he was working for CTC right 2 A Correct Yes 3 Q Okay and this memo was created solely 4 for the purpose of interrogating Zubaydah is that 5 correct 6 A Yes 7 Q Now did there come a point thereafter 8 when Dr Mitchell -- well let me back up for a 9 second 10 I think you testified on direct 11 examination that at Dr Mitchell's request the 12 CIA also agreed to engage Dr Jessen is that 13 correct 14 A Yes yes 15 Q And when did that happen 16 A July 2002 17 Q Okay around or about the time of this 18 memo 19 A Yes 20 Q And was that solely to assist in the 21 interrogation of Zubaydah 22 A Yes 23 Q Now did there come a time thereafter 24 when Drs Jessen and Dr Mitchell started 25 assisting in the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah ACLU-RDI 6806 p 159 Page 160 1 A Yes 2 Q Now I want to go to a statement that 3 you made You said -- if I wrote it down 4 correctly -- that Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen were 5 independent contractors 6 A Yes 7 Q You remember you said that 8 A Yes 9 Q And then you said if I wrote it down 10 correctly Independent contractors do not make 11 decisions 12 Do you remember you said that 13 A Yes 14 Q Tell us what you know about that 15 A Independent contractors are subject 16 matter experts 17 don't possess they make recommendations but the 18 ultimate decision-makers were the staff people 19 the leadership of the Counter-Terrorism Center 20 Q They give us knowledge that we Now who were those decision-makers 21 MR JOHNSON 22 MR JAMES SMITH 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 160 point Objection Fair point fair I'll withdraw Am I permitted to ask the witness if he was the decision-maker Page 161 1 MR JOHNSON Yes as long as we 2 avoid names and identifying information of 3 other individuals 4 MR JAMES SMITH 5 titles 6 MR JOHNSON 7 Titles It depends on the exact title 8 MR JAMES SMITH 9 can do it a different way 10 What about Let me see if I BY MR JAMES SMITH 11 Q Can you get out Exhibit 38 please 12 A Number 38 13 Q Exhibit 38 yes 14 A What is that 15 Q What is it or where is it It's in your 16 pile of information because Mr Lustberg showed 17 it to you 18 MR BENNETT 19 document 20 21 Can you describe the MR JAMES SMITH Yes I can BY MR JAMES SMITH 22 Q 23 cable 24 through 1174 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 161 It is a -- it looks like a government It bears Bates number United States 1170 I'll stop there Do you have Exhibit 38 before you Page 162 1 A I have it 2 Q Do you remember that you were asked 3 questions about this document in your direct 4 examination 5 A Yes 6 Q Okay Now I want to just direct your 7 attention to again the first page where it says 8 DCI Guidelines for the Conduct of Interrogation 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes I do 11 Q And do you recognize Exhibit 38 as being 12 the Guidelines for Interrogation 13 A Yes 14 Q Okay Now turn if you would to the 15 second page of the document In the paragraph 16 marked 3 you see where it says Begin Text of DCI 17 Guidelines 18 A Yes 19 Q I'm going to ask you to jump down two 20 sentences in the paragraph 21 says quote These guidelines address the conduct 22 of interrogations of persons who are detained 23 pursuant to the authorities set forth in the 24 Memorandum of Notification of 17 September 2001 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 162 A I see that Do you see where it Page 163 1 Q Are you familiar with that memorandum 2 A The 17 September memorandum 3 Q The 2001 memorandum 4 A Yes 5 Q Are you familiar with it 6 A I am familiar with it 7 Q Are you able to talk about it without 8 violating any obligation for classified 9 information 10 MR JOHNSON We need to consult 11 Depends on what you need to ask 12 MR JAMES SMITH 13 MR JOHNSON 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 15 Got it Break to consult The time is 2 30 p m 16 Whereupon a short recess was 17 taken 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 19 20 back on record BY MR JAMES SMITH 21 22 Q Do you remember the question Mr Rodriguez 23 24 2 34 p m A Yes You were talking -- you were asking about the 17 September MON 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 163 Q Yes We're Page 164 1 A And after discussing it I'm only 2 authorized to talk about the capture and detain 3 portion of that authority 4 5 Q Okay Can you tell me whatever you're permitted to tell 6 A I'm telling you The capture and detain 7 portion of it is that the CIA has the authority to 8 go forth and capture and detain terrorists 9 Q Okay When you say capture and detain 10 terrorists do you mean low-value medium-value 11 and high-value high-detainee-value terrorists 12 13 A I don't think they make a determination there on that document 14 Q When when is the determination made 15 A The determination is made upon capture 16 Q Okay 17 A I mean in many cases we knew who we were 18 going after so we already -- if we were going 19 after a high-value target we already knew 20 Q Okay 21 A But sometimes other people -- people 22 were captured in different ways and at the time 23 depending on their knowledge that they had a 24 determination was made 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 164 Q Okay Thank you Mr Rodriguez Page 165 1 Could I ask you to go back to Exhibit 38 2 and turn to the third page of the document 3 want to focus on the paragraph the first full 4 paragraph on that page 5 I Do you have it before you 6 A Yes 7 Q Now let's just back up for a second 8 9 10 Did I hear you say earlier today that enhanced interrogation techniques were only to be used on high-value detainees 11 A Yes 12 Q And that was your understanding of the 13 policy and procedures that were in place starting 14 in 2002 in the fall correct 15 A Correct 16 Q So to the extent that Dr Mitchell 17 created that memo that listed those 12 items it 18 was only contemplated to be used on high-value 19 detainees is that correct 20 A Yes yes 21 Q Okay Now I want to talk about the 22 concept of control okay 23 paragraph again and we're going to read it 24 together 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 165 Go back to this Do you see where it says quote Page 166 1 Enhanced techniques are techniques that do 2 incorporate physical or psychological pressure 3 beyond standard techniques 4 Do you see that 5 A Yes 6 Q Reading on it says The use of each 7 specific enhanced technique must be approved by 8 headquarters in advance 9 Now let me stop right there 10 What headquarters is being referenced 11 there Is that Langley 12 A That's CTC 13 Q CTC 14 A CIA headquarters 15 Q And where is that 16 A In Langley 17 Q Okay Where was where was CTC located So according to the procedures 18 that were in place no enhanced interrogation 19 could take place unless Langley signed off on it 20 and approved it is that correct 21 A Yes 22 Q And that was your understanding as the 23 person who was in charge of that program 24 A Yes 25 Q And then it says in addition to being ACLU-RDI 6806 p 166 Page 167 1 headquarters approval it must be approved by 2 whom 3 A In some cases if it was like 4 waterboarding I believe we had to go to the 5 director to get his approval 6 Q The director was who 7 A George Tenet at the time 8 Q Okay 9 10 So anytime for example Zubaydah was waterboarded the director had to sign off on it is that correct 11 A I don't think he -- I think the director 12 provided approval to do to do waterboarding 13 don't think that he approved it every time but 14 I'm not sure I I don't think that was the case 15 Q Okay Did you have to approve it 16 A The chain of command -- you know the 17 cable would come to me and I would have to sign 18 off on it myself so I would be part of the 19 approval process 20 21 Q process 22 A 23 24 Who else was part of the approval I don't think I'm allowed -MR JOHNSON Objection BY MR JAMES SMITH 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 167 Q Got it Sorry sorry Okay but there Page 168 1 were others within the chain of command at Langley 2 that were part of the approval process 3 A Yes 4 Q Okay 5 6 Now why did the CIA -- well strike that 7 Why was this process put in place that 8 before there could be any enhanced interrogation 9 techniques officials at Langley had to sign off 10 on it 11 A Why was that Well because this was serious business 12 and we wanted to make sure that it was not done 13 without the approval of the highest levels of the 14 agency 15 Q Okay and what happens if it wasn't 16 approved Would that mean no enhanced 17 interrogation techniques 18 A No 19 techniques 20 Q Okay No enhanced interrogation Reading on it says and may be 21 employed only by approved interrogators for use 22 with the specific detainee 23 Do you see that 24 A Yes 25 Q Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 168 Why was that part of the process Page 169 1 or procedure that was in place 2 3 A We just wanted to make sure that each detainee had his own approval process 4 Q Okay So with respect to any detainee 5 for which enhanced interrogation techniques would 6 be used it had to be specifically approved by or 7 for that particular detainee 8 A Correct 9 Q Okay and reading on it says with 10 appropriate medical and psychological 11 participation in the process 12 Do you see that 13 A Where are we again 14 Q Yeah we're in that same -- 15 A Same paragraph 16 Q -- sentence in the same paragraph -- 17 A Yes 18 Q -- where it says -- see where it says 19 with appropriate medical and psychological 20 participation in the process 21 A Yes 22 Q Do you see that 23 A Mm-hmm 24 Q Can you tell me what that means 25 A With the appropriate -- I don't know ACLU-RDI 6806 p 169 I Page 170 1 don't know what it means 2 Q Let me be more precise in my question 3 A Okay 4 Q I'll withdraw the one that's pending 5 A Okay 6 Q As part of the process that was 7 implemented by the CIA was it necessary to have a 8 psychologist and a medical doctor in the room 9 while enhanced interrogation techniques were being 10 used on a detainee 11 A Yes 12 Q And why was that process put in place 13 A It was put in place to make sure that no 14 harm came to the detainee and and if there was a 15 medical emergency that there would be someone 16 there that could treat it 17 Q Now I'd like you to turn to the last 18 page of this document 19 preceding page 20 Actually it starts on the I apologize Do you see where in the second sentence 21 in the paragraph marked 4 Approvals Required 22 do you see where it says In all instances their 23 use shall be documented in cable traffic 24 approval in writing e g by written memorandum 25 or in cable traffic from the director DCI ACLU-RDI 6806 p 170 Prior Page 171 1 Counter-Terrorism Center with the concurrence of 2 the chief CTC legal group is required for the 3 USF of any enhanced techniques 4 5 Let me stop right there Do you see that 6 A Yes I do 7 Q Was that the procedure that was in place 8 in the years 2002 through 2004 9 A Yes 10 Q So for example if a plaintiff in this 11 case contends that they were waterboarded if 12 procedure was followed you would expect to see 13 cables authorizing the waterboarding is that 14 correct 15 A Yes 16 Q And in the absence of the cables it 17 would suggest to you would it not that either 18 there was no waterboarding or it was done in an 19 unauthorized fashion at the site 20 A Yes 21 Q Okay Have you ever seen any cables 22 authorizing any enhanced interrogation techniques 23 on plaintiff Soud in this case 24 A No 25 Q In your capacity as the director would ACLU-RDI 6806 p 171 Page 172 1 you have had to authorize those enhanced 2 interrogation techniques if in fact they were 3 done according to procedure 4 A What year were those captures 5 Q '03 and '04 6 A Yes 7 Q Okay Did you ever authorize any 8 enhanced interrogation techniques on plaintiff 9 Soud 10 A No 11 Q Did you ever authorize any enhanced 12 interrogation techniques on plaintiff Salim 13 A No 14 Q Did you ever authorize any enhanced 15 interrogation techniques on Rahman 16 A No 17 Q Have you ever seen any cables as 18 contemplated by the procedure that I'm reviewing 19 here indicating that enhanced interrogation 20 techniques were utilized on any of these three 21 plaintiffs 22 A No 23 Q Now I want to go back for a second and 24 I want to talk a little bit more about process 25 okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 172 And I want to focus on the period of time Page 173 1 where enhanced interrogation techniques were used 2 on Abu Zubaydah 3 Are you with me 4 A Yes 5 Q And if I recall in the record that's 6 approximately two weeks in August when those 7 enhanced interrogation techniques were used 8 Does that sound right to you 9 A That's true 10 Q Okay 11 Now I want to talk about process 12 There was this memo that we reviewed 13 that Mr Mr Mitchell or Dr Mitchell put 14 together with the 12 and ultimately 11 enhanced 15 interrogation techniques right 16 A Right 17 Q Okay 18 19 Now who decided which techniques were going to be used on Zubaydah 20 A I think that initially -- the way this 21 worked was there was a gradual escalation of 22 techniques 23 Q But let's just -- who ultimately decided 24 whether or not those techniques were going to be 25 used on Zubaydah ACLU-RDI 6806 p 173 Page 174 1 MR JOHNSON Objection to the 2 extent the question calls for names or 3 identifying information 4 5 MR JAMES SMITH Careful BY MR JAMES SMITH 6 Q Did Dr Mitchell decide or did the 7 United States government decide that enhanced 8 interrogation techniques were going to be used on 9 Zubaydah 10 A The US government decided 11 Q Okay and so we're clear to the extent 12 that Zubaydah was waterboarded was it the 13 government who decided when he was going to be 14 waterboarded 15 A Yes 16 Q Was it the government who decided how he 17 was going to be waterboarded 18 A Yes 19 Q Was it -- is it fair to say that -- 20 MR BENNETT 21 say 22 23 MR JAMES SMITH Oh sorry BY MR JAMES SMITH 24 25 Objection to fair to Q Is it correct to say that the government decided everything about any of the enhanced ACLU-RDI 6806 p 174 Page 175 1 interrogation techniques that were used on Abu 2 Zubaydah 3 A Yes 4 Q Now I want to go back to -- several 5 times today my esteemed adversary made reference 6 to the program 7 Do you remember that 8 A Yes 9 Q And who designed the program 10 Do you remember that 11 A Right 12 Q And I want to make sure that we're all 13 clear about exactly what that means 14 A Okay 15 Q Isn't it true that the only thing that 16 Drs Mitchell and Dr Jessen did was to give the 17 government a memo with 12 suggested enhanced 18 interrogation techniques 19 Isn't that true 20 A True 21 Q And isn't it also true that everything 22 past that meaning who it was done to when it was 23 done how long it was done was a decision of the 24 United States government 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 175 A True Page 176 1 Q And isn't it also true that at every 2 time every instance that Drs Mitchell and Jessen 3 were involved with Abu Zubaydah it was at the 4 direction of the United States government 5 A Yes 6 Q And isn't it also true that there came a 7 time during that two-week period when they 8 suggested to you and the other decision-makers to 9 stop waterboarding 10 A Yes 11 Q And isn't it also true that you directed 12 them to continue the waterboarding 13 A Yes 14 Q And if I recall your testimony you said 15 that your analysts were concerned that Zubaydah 16 was not complying 17 A Yes 18 Q Can you tell me what you mean by that 19 A When Abu Zubaydah was captured in the 20 safe house where he was captured the location 21 where he was captured we discovered tapes 22 interrogation tapes -- not interrogation tapes 23 but tapes that he had prerecorded to celebrate yet 24 another major attack on the US and we feared that 25 he had done that in anticipation of an attack that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 176 Page 177 1 was being planned and because he had not provided 2 that information during interrogation we felt 3 that he was not being compliant 4 5 Q And who made the decision to continue the waterboarding 6 MR JOHNSON 7 MR JAMES SMITH 8 9 Objection Strike that strike that BY MR JAMES SMITH 10 Q Are you able to tell me who in addition 11 to yourself made the decision to continue the 12 waterboarding 13 A People who work with me 14 Q Was the director of the CIA involved in 15 that decision 16 A I don't recall 17 Q Okay 18 Now I want to go back As of August of 2002 the only 19 high-value detainee that was in custody was 20 Zubaydah right 21 A Yes 22 Q And then that changed right 23 A Yes 24 Q Al-Nashiri was captured 25 A Yes ACLU-RDI 6806 p 177 Page 178 1 2 Q Now I think you said he was a high-value detainee right 3 A Yes 4 Q And then sometime thereafter Khalid 5 Sheikh Mohammed was captured 6 A Yes 7 Q Right 8 A Mm-hmm 9 Q Were there any other high-value 10 detainees 11 A Yes 12 Q Who Let me just ask Were there any 13 others that Mitchell and Jessen were involved 14 with 15 A I believe that -- 16 MR JOHNSON 17 MR JAMES SMITH 18 Objection He can answer the question yes or no I think 19 MR JOHNSON Okay 20 THE WITNESS Yes 21 MR JOHNSON He can answer the 22 question yes or no 23 he discusses details 24 We object to the degree BY MR JAMES SMITH 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 178 Q Are you able to identify for the record Page 179 1 the other high-value detainees 2 A Yes 3 Q Can you tell me their names 4 MR JOHNSON 5 MR JAMES SMITH 6 Objection Hold that thought 7 MR JOHNSON To clarify just to 8 redirect to the classification guidance 9 indicating which detainee the detainees that 10 can be discussed so the 119 -- 11 12 MR JAMES SMITH They were not all high-value detainees 13 Discussion held off the record 14 MR BENNETT 15 says is publicly known 16 17 The name he has he MR JOHNSON One minute to consult 18 MR JAMES SMITH 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 20 Of course 2 51 p m we're off the record 21 Whereupon a short recess was 22 taken 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 179 2 53 p m back on record MR JOHNSON Thank you Page 180 1 With the chance to consult the 2 government will object 3 object 4 to discuss any involvement of Drs Mitchell 5 and Jessen with particular detainees beyond 6 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Abu Zubaydah 7 Al-Nashiri and Gul Rahman 8 MR JAMES SMITH 9 In part we'll We have instructed the witness not Okay just -- can we agree that there were other 10 detainees high-value detainees 11 MR JOHNSON 12 So let's Yes BY MR JAMES SMITH 13 Q Can we tall them Mr X 14 A If you want 15 Q Is that fair 16 A Yes 17 Q Just -- here's the point that I'm trying 18 to understand 19 MR BENNETT 20 Mrs X 21 You're making trouble BY MR JAMES SMITH 24 25 I'm just trying to be -MR JAMES SMITH 22 23 Or Miss -- Mr or Q So let me ask you We we went through Mr Rodriguez the process that was used for ACLU-RDI 6806 p 180 Page 181 1 Zubaydah when enhanced interrogations were 2 utilized right 3 A Correct 4 Q And that there were cables the 5 procedure was followed correct 6 A Correct 7 Q And the government decided when to do 8 it how long to do it which days to do it et 9 cetera and directed the team is that fair 10 A That is fair 11 Q Was the same process utilized for the 12 other high-value detainees 13 A Yes 14 Q Okay So we would expect to see for 15 Al-Nashiri the same cables and the like to the 16 extent that he was waterboarded or other enhanced 17 interrogation techniques were used correct 18 A Yes 19 Q Okay and in all of those instances 20 Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen acted under the 21 direction of the CIA is that correct 22 A That is correct 23 Q They exercised no independent judgment 24 they did what they were told 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 181 A That is correct Page 182 1 Q Okay 2 Now is it correct to say that 3 Dr Jessen and Dr Mitchell only supported the CIA 4 with respect to high-value detainees 5 A That was their contract That's what 6 they were supposed to do was to support the CTC 7 with high-value detainees 8 9 Q Okay and is that in fact what they A Yes except there is some evidence that did 10 11 apparently en route to another black site they 12 were asked to look at a detainee 13 Q And this is Rahman 14 A That's right 15 Q And I'm going to come back to Rahman in 16 a bit 17 case the jury watches this tape Let me just get a little background in 18 I think Site Green was where Zubaydah 19 and the other high-value detainees was kept is 20 that right 21 A Correct 22 Q There were other what we call black 23 sites right 24 A Right 25 Q And were they for medium and low-value ACLU-RDI 6806 p 182 Page 183 1 detainees 2 A No 3 Q Who were they for 4 A High-value detainees 5 Q High-value detainees so if you go back 6 to Exhibit 38 -- yes -- do you remember 7 Mr Lustberg asked you why this memo was sent to 8 Cobalt 9 A Yes 10 Q Okay and for the record so that 11 everybody understands Cobalt was a name for one 12 of the black sites right 13 A Yes 14 Q And is it fair -- is it correct to say 15 that the reason why these procedures were sent to 16 Cobalt is because there were high-value detainees 17 in Cobalt 18 A I guess I don't know 19 Q You don't know 20 A I don't know 21 Q Okay I'm surprised by it All right 22 Now let me let me go back to -- you 23 said that Drs Mitchell and Jessen designed the 24 program remember 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 183 A Yes Page 184 1 2 Q And then I think you even said that they were the architects of the program 3 A Yes 4 Q Okay and I want to make sure that the 5 record is crystal clear on that 6 What you really meant by that was they 7 prepared a memo with 12 enhanced interrogation 8 techniques right 9 A Yes 10 Q That was the that was the extent of 11 their architecture if you will 12 A Yes 13 Q And after that every decision about 14 when and how to use those techniques was a 15 decision that was made by the United States 16 government isn't that right 17 A That's right 18 Q Okay 19 Now were enhanced interrogation 20 techniques that are a part of that memo intended 21 to be used on low-value detainees 22 A No 23 Q Were they intended to be used on 24 medium-value detainees 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 184 A No Page 185 1 Q Are you aware in your capacity as the 2 director of CTC during the period of time 2002 3 through 2004 when you ever authorized enhanced 4 interrogation techniques as they're contemplated 5 by that Mitchell memo to be used on a low or 6 medium-value detainee 7 A No 8 Q And if that would have been done is it 9 10 your testimony that that was directly against your orders 11 A Yes 12 Q Okay 13 A Not just my orders but the the whole 14 regulation the whole guidance everything that we 15 had 16 17 Q Now you remember I asked you about the plaintiffs' theory of the case 18 A Yes 19 Q Are you aware that the plaintiffs 20 contend that the program that was designed by 21 Drs Mitchell and Jessen was used on all of the 22 detainees 23 A The philosophy 24 Q Let's go back 25 A Okay ACLU-RDI 6806 p 185 Page 186 1 Q Distilled to its essence the plan that 2 was that was designed by Drs Mitchell and Jessen 3 was that two-page memo with 12 enhanced 4 interrogation techniques right 5 A Correct 6 MR BENNETT 7 MR LUSTBERG 8 MR JAMES SMITH 9 Objection Can you tell me the basis of that objection 10 I want to cure it 11 MR LUSTBERG 12 The question was completely compound and confusing 13 MR JAMES SMITH 14 and confusing 15 then 16 Objection Okay It was compound I'll keep the question BY MR JAMES SMITH 17 Q And so we're clear that plan that 18 two-page memo was never intended to be used on 19 anyone other than high-value detainees 20 A That is correct 21 Q Okay Now I want to ask you about 22 these three plaintiffs 23 that you authored and we're going to find out in 24 a second 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 186 I think I have a document What's the next exhibit number Page 187 1 THE REPORTER 2 Exhibit 41 was marked for 3 identification 4 Exhibit 41 BY MR JAMES SMITH 5 Q For the record Mr Rodriguez we have 6 marked as Exhibit 41 a document produced by the 7 United States government and it carries Bates 8 label 001542 through 1544 9 at this document 10 Take a moment and look Most of it's redacted and then tell me when you're ready to go 11 A Okay Let me read it 12 Witness peruses document 13 THE WITNESS 14 Okay BY MR JAMES SMITH 15 Q Have you read the document sir 16 A Yes 17 Q Do you recognize this document 18 A No 19 Q Okay If you turn to the third page of 20 the document do you see where it says Sincerely 21 Jose A Rodriguez Jr -- 22 A Yes 23 Q -- Director DCI Counterterrorist 24 Center 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 187 A Yes Page 188 1 Q That's you isn't it 2 A Yes but do you know how many of these I 3 signed That's why I couldn't remember 4 Q Okay 5 A I'm just telling you 6 Q I want to see if I can refresh your 7 I'm not being critical recollection 8 A Okay 9 Q All right 10 So let's go back for a second 11 MR BENNETT 12 or something Zoloft 13 collection of pills Do you want a Xanax I got a whole 14 MR JAMES SMITH 15 Mr Bennett are you okay 16 17 MR BENNETT All right As well as usual BY MR JAMES SMITH 18 Q Sir tell me what this document is 19 A The fact that we were turning over an 20 individual to the military to me it means that 21 the value is not one of a high-value detainee 22 Q Right 23 A That it's someone who we don't need in 24 our possession that we needed to turn over to the 25 military ACLU-RDI 6806 p 188 Page 189 1 Q So in effect this document is if you 2 will a transition memo about a subject that's 3 being turned over from custody by the CIA to the 4 military 5 A Correct 6 Q U S military 7 A Yes 8 Q And are you aware of the name 9 10 S-U-L-E-I-M-A-N Abdullah is 11 A No 12 Q Okay 13 Now I do Now I know but I -- Do you know him to be a plaintiff in this case 14 A Yes 15 Q Okay 16 Do you know who that Now I want to ask you You prepared this document 17 A No 18 Q Someone under your direction prepared 20 A Yes 21 Q Okay and it was necessary to prepare a 19 it 22 document like this in order to transfer custody of 23 a subject from the CIA control to the military 24 control 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 189 A Yes Page 190 1 Q Now do you see where it says in the 2 document quote We request that the military 3 service in Bagram take immediate custody and 4 control of these individuals accord the ICRC 5 appropriate access to them and hold them in an 6 appropriate detention facility until the US 7 government determines otherwise 8 transfer of detainees to DOD control will assist 9 the USG in addressing some of the concerns raised 10 by the ICRC while ensuring these individuals are 11 removed from the battlefield 12 We believe this Do you see that 13 A Yes 14 Q Do you have a memory of what the 15 concerns were by the ICRC as they applied to 16 Mr Salim 17 A I do not have a memory regarding as they 18 apply to Mr Salim I remember in general that 19 they wanted access to the detainees 20 Q And do you know why access was wanted 21 A They wanted to do what they do which is 22 check them in and make sure that they're okay 23 24 Q Do you know why Salim was taken into custody by the CIA 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 190 A I assume he was he was picked up Page 191 1 somewhere 2 3 Q Let's take -- take a look at the second page if you will 4 Do you see where it says Suleiman 5 Abdullah is a Tanzanian national suspected of 6 involvement in al-Qa'ida's East Africa cell 7 specifically as a Page 3 facilitator of 8 al-Qa'ida's 1998 attacks against the US embassies 9 in Nairobi Kenya and Dar Es Salaam Tanzania 10 Let me stop right there 11 Was that true 12 A Yes 13 Q And reading on it says Abdullah first 14 came to Kenya in 1993 and stayed in Mombasa with 15 East African embassy bombing fugitive Fahid 16 Mohamed Ally Msalam with whom he later trained in 17 Afghanistan 18 Do you see that 19 A Yes 20 Q Was that true too 21 A I assume so 22 MR BENNETT Don't assume please 23 THE WITNESS I don't know 24 MR BENNETT Okay 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 191 Page 192 1 BY MR JAMES SMITH 2 3 Q Let me see if I can cut to the quick here sir 4 Was Suleiman held in custody by the CIA 5 because he was believed to be a part of terrorist 6 activity 7 A Yes 8 Q Take a look at the footnote 9 be a footnote actually It may not There's a space and 10 then there's information on the bottom of the 11 page 12 Do you see that 13 A I see it 14 Q Do you see where it says Legal Basis 15 For Detention 16 The Law of Armed Conflict is a 17 sufficient but not the sole legal basis for 18 detention of the Subjects 19 parties to the hostilities have the right to 20 target enemy combatants engaged in active 21 hostilities including the right to capture and 22 detain 23 Under that theory Do you see that 24 A Yes 25 Q Is that why Suleiman was detained by the ACLU-RDI 6806 p 192 Page 193 1 CIA because he was considered an enemy combatant 2 A Yes 3 Q Okay Reading on it says This is 4 especially true where such detention is necessary 5 to prevent an individual from further engaging in 6 hostilities 7 Do you see that 8 A Yes 9 Q Was that a concern of the United States 10 government -- 11 A Yes 12 Q -- that we continue detention 13 A Yes 14 Q Reading on it says A 'combatant' can 15 also be an individual affiliated with an 16 organization engaging in hostilities or one 17 actively support or facilitating such attacks 18 Each of these individuals is linked to al-Qa'ida 19 members and known terrorists or was captured 20 engaging in active attacks against coalition 21 forces 22 Do you see that 23 A Yes 24 Q Is that why Suleiman was detained 25 A Yes ACLU-RDI 6806 p 193 Page 194 1 2 Q Is there any doubt in your mind that the CIA considered him an enemy combatant 3 A No 4 Q Let's move on then to Rahman We're 5 going to mark the next exhibit as Exhibit 41 6 sic 7 MR BENNETT 8 Could I have just a second with him 9 Exhibit 42 was marked for 10 identification 11 MR BENNETT 12 I'm sorry 13 14 Thank you MR JAMES SMITH No problem BY MR JAMES SMITH 15 Q Do you have Exhibit 42 before you sir 16 A I do 17 Q For the record let me identify this is 18 a document produced by the United States 19 government 20 63 21 It bears Bates label 001061 through Have you seen this document before 22 today sir 23 A I do not know 24 Q Okay 25 to the subject ACLU-RDI 6806 p 194 Let me just direct your attention Do you see where it says Eyes Page 195 1 Only - Gul Rahman 2 Chronology of Events Do you see that 3 A Yes I do 4 Q And this document was obviously created 5 by the United States government 6 Do you agree with that 7 A Yes 8 Q And because of the redactions that have 9 10 been made by the United States government it's difficult to tell who created this document 11 Would you agree with that 12 A Yes 13 Q Would you agree with me that the 14 document was created by the CIA 15 16 A the CIA 17 Q It appears to be have been created by I have no way of knowing Okay 18 Now do you see where it says sir in 19 paragraph 2 The following chronology of events 20 relating to the death of enemy combatant Gul 21 Rahman and let me stop right there 22 Do you see that 23 A Yes 24 Q Does that in any way refresh your 25 recollection whether or not Gul Rahman was ACLU-RDI 6806 p 195 Page 196 1 considered by the CIA at the time that he was 2 taken into custody to be an enemy combatant 3 A He was an enemy combatant 4 Q And can you tell us why the CIA believed 5 that Gul Rahman was an enemy combatant 6 A He was captured in battle 7 Q Can you -- so that if a jury watches 8 this tape tell us what you know about how he was 9 captured and why he was taken into custody 10 11 A I do not remember the specifics but I do know that he was captured in battle 12 Q Okay 13 A He was battling the US government 14 Q So he was not supporting the United 15 Who was he battling with States flag is that correct 16 A No 17 Q In fact he was against it right 18 A He was 19 Q And was he part of another al-Qa'ida 20 cell 21 A Yeah he was the part of the -- I 22 forget the name of the cell itself but it was 23 supportive of al-Qa'ida 24 25 Q And do you know or have any knowledge of whether or not while Rahman was in custody with ACLU-RDI 6806 p 196 Page 197 1 the CIA he threatened to kill every CIA officer 2 in that facility if and when he got out 3 A Do I know why 4 Q Do you know if he did that 5 A Yes 6 Q Okay and the circumstances of his 7 death are you familiar with them 8 A Yes 9 Q Okay 10 11 Now let me back up for a second Was Gul Rahman considered a high-value detainee 12 A No 13 Q So is it fair to say that he should not 14 have been subjected to any enhanced interrogation 15 techniques 16 A Yes 17 Q That is fair to say 18 A Yes 19 Q Okay 20 Now you said earlier today if I heard 21 you correctly that you have some knowledge about 22 Drs Mitchell and Jessen having some contact with 23 Gul Rahman 24 A Yes 25 Q Did I hear you correctly ACLU-RDI 6806 p 197 Page 198 1 A Yes 2 Q Okay Let's start with Dr Mitchell 3 Are you aware -- well let me back up for a 4 second 5 Gul Rahman was in custody for 6 approximately two weeks is that right 7 A I do not know 8 Q Okay 9 Do you remember if he was in custody for a relatively short period of time 10 A Yes 11 Q Okay and he died in his cell is that 12 correct 13 A Yes 14 Q Now that was at Cobalt 15 Is that where he was kept or detained 16 A Yes 17 Q Okay 18 Now were you familiar with who the 19 guards were the night guards who maintained 20 control over the Cobalt facility 21 22 MR JOHNSON Objection consult 23 MR JAMES SMITH 24 MR JOHNSON 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 198 Let me Yes Can we have a moment to discuss with the witness Page 199 1 MR JAMES SMITH 2 Got it Anytime you need it just say so 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 4 3 15 p m We're off the record 5 Whereupon a short recess was 6 taken 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 8 9 3 26 p m We're back on record BY MR JAMES SMITH 10 Q Are you ready to proceed sir 11 A Yes 12 Q Okay and while we were off the record 13 the court reporter read back the question that was 14 pending 15 Do you recall the question 16 17 A Was I familiar with the guards that were guarding the facility 18 Q The night guards for the facility 19 A No 20 Q Okay 21 Now I want to talk to you about your 22 testimony earlier today about Rahman and in 23 particular your knowledge of any involvement that 24 Dr Mitchell had with Rahman 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 199 Are you with me Page 200 1 A Yes 2 Q Now do you have any knowledge of any 3 involvement that Dr Mitchell had with Rahman 4 A Understanding and the difference is I 5 don't have any direct knowledge 6 from reading the materials 7 Q Okay Understanding So you read certain materials and 8 learned that Dr Mitchell had some contact with 9 with Mr Rahman is that right 10 A Correct 11 Q Okay and do you remember what the 12 source of your information is 13 14 A I'm not sure if it's the document the investigation that was done by the IG 15 Q Okay All right 16 A I think that was it 17 Q And did you familiarize yourself with 18 this information as part of your duties and 19 responsibilities with the CIA 20 A Yes 21 Q Okay so can you tell me as best you 22 recall your understanding of any contact that 23 Dr Mitchell had with Mr Rahman 24 25 A Dr Mitchell was passing through and he was asked to take a look at the prisoner and he ACLU-RDI 6806 p 200 Page 201 1 did and his suggestion was that he probably 2 needed to see a doctor and that was about the 3 extent of the contact 4 Q Okay So let me just make sure the 5 record is clear 6 Dr Mitchell had occasion to be at Cobalt 7 A When you say passing through He had occasion to be at that location 8 in this instance because he was escorting someone 9 else 10 11 Q He was escorting another high-value detainee 12 A Yes 13 Q And they had a brief layover at Cobalt 14 A Yes 15 Q Okay and in the course of that brief 16 layover at least your understanding is someone 17 asked him to what look into Mr Rahman 18 19 A was doing or what could be done 20 21 For an assessment of his view of how he Q Okay and do you know who asked Dr Mitchell to make that assessment 22 A No 23 Q Okay and you're aware that 24 Dr Mitchell in fact did make the assessment 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 201 A Yes Page 202 1 2 Q And how much time did he spend with Rahman 3 A Not very long 4 Q Was it some matter of minutes 5 A I do not know 6 Q Would you agree with me that there was 7 Hours no interrogation that was done 8 A No 9 Q No you would not agree with me or no 10 there was no interrogation 11 A There was no interrogation 12 Q Okay 13 So he was checking in on him to check his medical condition 14 A He was checking on him to see what he 15 thought of the detainee 16 had been acting out he was very tough he was 17 hard to handle and he was asked to get his 18 opinion 19 Q Apparently the detainee Okay and let's develop that for a 20 second Were you made aware of how Mr Rahman was 21 acting out 22 A He apparently had thrown his food and 23 his bucket of waste at guards and was very 24 difficult and very confrontational and 25 threatening ACLU-RDI 6806 p 202 Page 203 1 Q 2 right 3 A 4 think 5 Q 6 He was threatening to kill the guards He was threatening to kill everybody I To kill everybody and he was throwing his human waste at the guards 7 A Yes yes 8 Q Okay 9 So you asked Mitchell or someone asked Mitchell to go and do some form of 10 assessment 11 A Correct 12 Q Okay and Dr Mitchell did the 13 assessment 14 A Correct 15 Q And he reported back to men under your 16 command at the CIA 17 A Yes 18 Q Okay and you came to learn that 19 Dr Mitchell advised men at Cobalt CIA 20 operatives that doctor -- that Mr Rahman needed 21 to see a doctor 22 A Yes 23 Q And what did the CIA do in response to 24 Dr Mitchell's suggestion that Rahman see a 25 doctor ACLU-RDI 6806 p 203 Page 204 1 A I do not know 2 Q Are you familiar with Dr Mitchell's 3 testimony in this case about that 4 A No 5 Q Are you aware that that a doctor at the 6 facility said in words or substance that he's not 7 going to spend his time with F-ing terrorists in 8 response to Mr Mitchell or Dr Mitchell's 9 observation that he needed to see a doctor 10 A No 11 Q Okay 12 today 13 A No 14 Q And are you aware of any other You never heard that before 15 involvement that Dr Mitchell had with Rahman 16 other than what you told me 17 A No 18 Q Now let's turn to Dr Jessen Are you 19 aware that Dr Jessen had some involvement with 20 Mr Rahman 21 A 22 It is my understanding that he had some involvement 23 Q And is the source of your information 24 the same as it was with respect to Dr Mitchell's 25 involvement ACLU-RDI 6806 p 204 Page 205 1 A Yes 2 Q So this was information that you would 3 read as part of your duties and responsibilities 4 as the director of CTC 5 A Yes 6 Q Okay and what is it that you recall 7 about Dr Jessen's involvement with Mr Rahman 8 9 A That he also was asked to take a look at him and that he did and that he said that no 10 enhanced interrogation techniques should be used 11 on him and that -- and then he proceeded to give 12 them some suggestions as to what kind of 13 interrogation they should undertake with this 14 prisoner 15 Q So your understanding is that Dr Jessen 16 explicitly told CIA operatives at Cobalt not to 17 use enhanced interrogation techniques -- 18 A That is my understanding 19 Q -- with Rahman 20 A That is my understanding 21 Q And in the course of reviewing all the 22 information that you've reviewed about Rahman did 23 you find any evidence to the contrary that being 24 anything to suggest that Dr Jessen didn't say 25 don't use enhanced interrogation techniques ACLU-RDI 6806 p 205 Page 206 1 2 A enhanced interrogation techniques 3 4 Q And do you -- did you come to learn why Dr Jessen had given that advice 5 6 My understanding is he said do not use A He assessed that they would not work on this detainee 7 Q Now let's talk about -- strike that 8 Did you come to understand why 9 Dr Jessen was of that of that opinion 10 A No 11 Q No 12 13 Let's talk about plaintiff Soud You're familiar with plaintiff Soud 14 15 Okay A My understanding -- again I didn't remember him from my time at CTC 16 Q During the period of time that you were 17 the director of CTC how many detainees were 18 maintained at these black sites 19 20 MR JOHNSON moment Objection One Sorry 21 Discussion was held off the 22 record 23 MR JAMES SMITH You know in the 24 spirit of moving things along I withdraw the 25 question ACLU-RDI 6806 p 206 Page 207 1 BY MR JAMES SMITH 2 Q I'm going to hand to you what we're 3 going to mark as the next exhibit which is 4 Exhibit 43 Mr Rodriguez 5 A Okay 6 Exhibit 43 was marked for 7 identification 8 BY MR JAMES SMITH 9 Q For the record Exhibit 43 bears United 10 States Bates labels 001496 to 001500 11 moment and look at this document if you would 12 please sir 13 A Take a Okay 14 Witness peruses document 15 THE WITNESS 16 Okay BY MR JAMES SMITH 17 Q Are you ready to proceed sir 18 A Quite 19 Q Okay So do you recognize this 20 document -- it's obviously heavily redacted by the 21 government -- as a document from the CIA 22 A It looks like one 23 Q Okay Now you know that there's a 24 plaintiff in this case called Ben Soud you're 25 aware of that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 207 Page 208 1 A Yes yes 2 Q And are you aware he has other names 3 that he goes by or previously went by other 4 names 5 A No 6 Q Okay Let me just ask you to turn to 7 the second page 8 have included an assessment of -- I'll spell it 9 -- A-B-D next word A-L hyphen K-A-R-I-M 10 Do you see where it says We below 11 Do you see that 12 A Yes 13 Q Do you recognize that name 14 A No 15 Q Do you know that name to be also Ben 16 Soud 17 A No 18 Q Okay 19 information about the names that do appear here 20 21 Well let me ask you about the You see where it says HQS ALEC HQS is headquarters right 22 A Correct 23 Q And ALEC is Alec Station 24 A Yes 25 Q Okay and for the record that that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 208 Page 209 1 station was devoted exclusively to finding Osama 2 bin Laden 3 A Yes 4 Q Okay 5 It says HQS ALEC assesses that Libyan Islamic Fighting Group detainee 6 Do you see that 7 A Yes 8 Q Let me stop right there 9 10 I'm looking to see if this document has a date on it It may have been redacted out by the government 11 Do you see a date on the document 12 A I don't think so 13 Q No date on the document which is fine 14 I don't see a date Let's do it this way then 15 In 2003 and 2004 were you familiar with 16 an organization called the Libyan Islamic Fighting 17 Group 18 A Yes 19 Q Can you tell us what you understood that 20 group to be 21 22 A affiliate 23 24 It was an al-Qa'ida al-Qa'ida Q Okay and tell me what you mean by an al-Qa'ida affiliate 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 209 A Islamic terrorists that were partners Page 210 1 with al-Qa'ida 2 Q Okay and is it correct to say that 3 during that period of time that these al-Qa'ida 4 and affiliated groups were planning action against 5 the United States of America 6 A Yes 7 Q Okay So reading on the second page of 8 Exhibit 43 it says that Libyan Islamic Fighting 9 Group detainee Abd next word Al-Karim next 10 word Al-Libi a k a -- I assume that means also 11 known as 12 A Yes 13 Q M-U-H-A-M-M-A-D next word 14 A-H-M-A-D next word A-L hyphen S-H-U-R-U 15 apostrophe I-Y-A 16 therefore also known as M-U-H-A-M-M-A-D next 17 word A-H-M-A-D next word Z-A-B-A-N-D-A-R was 18 one of the LIFG figures responsible for the Abu 19 next word Y-A-H-Y-A camp in Afghanistan 20 Reading on a k a so Do you see that 21 A Yes 22 Q Can you tell me what the Abu Yahya -- 23 how do you pronounce that Y-A-H-Y-A 24 A Your guess is as good as mine 25 Q All right ACLU-RDI 6806 p 210 So let's just call it Page 211 1 Y-A-H-Y-A camp 2 3 A A military camp used by this group for training purposes 4 5 What is that camp Q Training training for terrorist purposes 6 A Training for terrorist purposes 7 Q Okay Reading on in the document it 8 says He was one of the chief LIFG members 9 responsible for running the camp 10 Do you see that 11 A Yes 12 Q Was this man considered an enemy 13 combatant by the United States government 14 A I do not know 15 Q You don't know 16 A No 17 Q Okay So if you're one of the chief 18 LIFG members running a camp where there's 19 terrorist activity in Afghanistan is that enough 20 to conclude that you're an enemy combatant or do 21 you need more information 22 A Yes 23 Q Yes 24 A Yes 25 Q Is that why this man was taken into ACLU-RDI 6806 p 211 Page 212 1 custody 2 MR LUSTBERG 3 THE WITNESS 4 Objection Yes BY MR JAMES SMITH 5 Q Okay Reading on it says on the next 6 page Belief that A-B-D next word A-L hyphen 7 K-A-R-I-M was a member of the LIFG's military 8 committee 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes 11 Q What's the military committee 12 A I do not know 13 Q Okay All right Would you agree with 14 me that if in fact Ben Soud is also the person 15 identified in this document by these various names 16 in Exhibit 43 that the CIA at the time he was 17 taken into custody also considered him to be an 18 enemy combatant 19 A Yes 20 Q Now I want to go back to the 21 plaintiffs' theory 22 fact the enhanced interrogation techniques were 23 used on one or both or all three of these 24 plaintiffs that that was exactly what wasn't 25 supposed to happen ACLU-RDI 6806 p 212 Isn't it true that if in Page 213 1 A Yes 2 Q Because if procedure was followed there 3 would have been sign-offs correct 4 A Correct 5 Q And isn't it also true that Dr Mitchell 6 and Dr Jessen had absolutely nothing to do with 7 anything that may have happened to these three 8 plaintiffs 9 A That is correct 10 MR LUSTBERG 11 THE WITNESS 12 Objection That is correct BY MR JAMES SMITH 13 Q So this program that 12-step memo that 14 they had prepared had absolutely nothing to do 15 with these three men isn't that correct 16 A That is correct 17 Q Okay Now did you ever come to learn 18 whether or not these three men were subjected to 19 the the actions that they complained about in 20 their complaint 21 A What are those 22 Q Oh you don't know 23 the complaint 24 25 You haven't read A mind ACLU-RDI 6806 p 213 I think I did but can you refresh my Page 214 1 Q They they -- I can I'm just not sure 2 that I need to 3 I'll talk to my partners at the break 4 Let me withdraw that question Isn't it also true Mr Rodriguez that 5 neither Dr Jessen nor Dr Mitchell had anything 6 to do with the capture of these three plaintiffs 7 A That is true 8 Q And isn't it also true that neither 9 10 Dr Mitchell nor Dr Jessen had anything to do with the rendition of these three plaintiffs 11 A 12 That is true MR JAMES SMITH 13 Let's go off the record for a couple minutes 14 THE WITNESS 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 16 Sure 3 45 p m Off the record 17 Whereupon a short recess was 18 taken 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 20 21 3 56 p m We're back on the record BY MR JAMES SMITH 22 Q Just a few more questions 23 Mr Rodriguez and then we'll let you go or at 24 least I'll pass the witness back to Mr Lustberg 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 214 Could you place before yourself what was Page 215 1 marked as Exhibit 11 during your direct 2 examination 3 A It was right on top 4 Q Do you have it before you 5 A Yes 6 Q Do you remember that you were asked 7 questions about this document 8 A Yes 9 Q And I just want to turn to the very last 10 page of the document 11 For the record Exhibit 11 bears 12 government Bates labels 001595 through 1609 13 Could I ask you to turn to Bates page 1609 14 please 15 A Yes 16 Q Now I think if I heard you correctly on 17 your direct examination you suggested that 18 perhaps Bates page 1609 didn't belong to this 19 document 20 Did I hear you right 21 A Yes 22 Q Okay 23 A It's just out of place 24 Tell me why you're thinking that To me it looks out of place for a document like this 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 215 Q Okay and do you recognize this document Page 216 1 as a CIA document 2 A The one on the right 3 Q No 4 A Yes 5 Q Okay 6 Pages 1 through 14 Now do you see on the bottom of Bates page 1608 it says 14 of 15 -- 7 A Yes 8 Q -- right 9 But on the next page there is no 15 of 15 right 10 A That's right 11 Q Is that another reason why you thought 12 this page didn't belong with this document 13 14 A Now that now that you mention it I just thought it was out of place 15 Q Okay and to the extent that this last 16 page is a part of this document is it fair to say 17 you don't know what the heck it is 18 A That is fair to say 19 Q You don't know if this is a request if 20 this was -- you just don't know in fairness what 21 it represents 22 A I just don't know 23 Q Okay and did you ever see this matrix 24 in this form as it appears on 1609 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 216 A No Page 217 1 Q No It's not something that at least 2 your office of the CIA used with respect to 3 detainees 4 A This is not familiar to me 5 Q Okay 6 All right Let's move on then Earlier today you were asked about the 7 first time that you actually were person to person 8 with Dr Mitchell 9 Do you remember that 10 A Yes 11 Q Sometimes when you go through hours of 12 questioning it refreshes your recollection about 13 things so let me ask you again 14 You testified I think earlier today 15 during Mr Lustberg's examination that the first 16 time you remember meeting Dr Mitchell is at a 17 black site 18 A Correct 19 Q Okay Having talked through a number of 20 things over as many hours as we've been together 21 do you have any memory of meeting Dr Mitchell in 22 April of 2002 at Langley 23 24 A Perhaps I did I just have a vivid memory of talking to him at the black site 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 217 Q At the black site Page 218 1 A Yes 2 Q But if you met him before you just 3 don't have any memory of it 4 A I just don't have any memory 5 Q Okay 6 One more subject You said -- excuse me for one second 7 So here is a question for Mr Mitchell 8 How did he get deployed if you didn't approve his 9 deployment 10 A I approved the deployment of a lot of 11 people so -- and that doesn't mean that I talked 12 to him 13 Q Got it 14 A I may have 15 of it 16 Q 17 Okay I just don't have a memory Fair enough Let me move on to what I think is the 18 final part today for me which is 19 during your direct examination you suggested that 20 one of the reasons why you took issue with the 21 report prepared by Senator Feinstein and the group 22 that assisted her was your belief that the 23 enhanced interrogation technique program was an 24 effective one 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 218 A Yes If I heard you Page 219 1 Q Now let's just make sure we're all on 2 the same page By enhanced interrogation 3 technique program can we all agree now that that 4 means that's the program for high-value detainees 5 following the procedures that were in place by the 6 United States government 7 A Yes 8 Q Okay and that's what you mean by the 9 program right 10 A Yes 11 Q Now do you think it was an effective 12 program 13 A Yes 14 Q And in the event that members of the 15 jury watch this tape can you explain to them why 16 you believe it was an effective program 17 A When 9 11 happened we had sources that 18 were telling us that there was going to be an 19 attack but we didn't have any specifics as to 20 when where how and the reason why was because 21 we did not have the sources in the leadership of 22 al-Qa'ida to be able to give us that information 23 The enhanced interrogation program gave 24 us the intelligence that we needed in order to 25 understand the organization better to understand ACLU-RDI 6806 p 219 Page 220 1 their logistics their finances their methods of 2 attacks their leaders who were they their plans 3 and intentions 4 information that allowed us to -- to give us a 5 blueprint on how to go after other al-Qa'ida 6 members which allowed us to disrupt plots 7 In addition it gave us So in a quick conclusion it was 8 incredibly helpful and at some point in the 9 future in history a lot of the intelligence that 10 was acquired from Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheihk 11 Mohammed will be declassified 12 doesn't happen now 13 now because there's nothing else to protect and 14 then you will be able to judge for yourself the 15 thousands of intelligence reporting that came from 16 this just these two sources that came from the 17 enhanced interrogation program that allowed us to 18 protect the homeland 19 strongly about it because I was a participant 20 Q Unfortunately it It should happen in my view That's why and I feel very Mr Rodriguez you mentioned earlier 21 today in examination by me two instances where 22 information was learned by Zubaydah and it 23 allowed the government to take action to protect 24 the country 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 220 Do you remember that Page 221 1 A Yes 2 Q Are you able to tell us today about any 3 other information that was learned that allowed 4 the government to disrupt contemplated terrorist 5 activity 6 about it 7 A Are you able to tell us anything else Well I mean there's a lot of 8 information that came from Zubaydah that allowed 9 us to then capture other people that gave us 10 information regarding potential attacks against 11 Heathrow for example sleeper cells in the US 12 that were getting ready that were taking 13 direction from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to bring 14 down the Brooklyn Bridge for example a second 15 wave of attacks that was being planned against our 16 country and we were able to get enough 17 information that allowed us to track the people 18 who were training the Carrabba cell that was 19 involved in plotting which allowed us to take 20 them all down arrest them all and take care of 21 that plot 22 So what the program did was that within 23 three years the al-Qa'ida organization that 24 attacked us on 9 11 was crippled and the 25 information coming from the black sites related to ACLU-RDI 6806 p 221 Page 222 1 Osama bin Laden eventually led us to him from the 2 courier so all of this as a result mostly from 3 this program 4 Q That's how valuable it was Mr Rodriguez is there any doubt in 5 your mind that this country would have been 6 attacked but for the program that was put in place 7 by the CIA 8 MR LUSTBERG 9 record 10 Objection for the Go ahead THE WITNESS I have no doubt that 11 we would have been whacked again had it not 12 been for this program 13 BY MR JAMES SMITH 14 Q Now during the period of time that this 15 program was in place -- and by the program 16 again I want to make sure we're crystal clear 17 It's the enhanced interrogation techniques for 18 high-value detainees utilizing procedures and at 19 the direction of the CIA 20 Are you with me 21 A Yes 22 Q Was there ever a question in your mind 23 about what you were doing and whether or not it 24 was legal 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 222 A There was never a question in my mind Page 223 1 2 Q And why was there never a question in your mind 3 A Because we had received the proper 4 authorities from the Justice Department 5 authorities by the way -- they had given us 6 verbal authorities 7 authority and we got those 8 legally we were covered and we went to work so I 9 never had any issue with it 10 Q Those We said no we want a written We thought that And was there ever any question in your 11 mind that the direction that you gave to 12 Drs Mitchell and Jessen was legal at all material 13 times 14 A It was it was legal and we were basing 15 this legality on binding legal opinions from our 16 own Justice Department 17 This was not just the CIA lawyers 18 telling us 19 The OLC as you know is the organization in 20 government that provides this type of opinion and 21 that's what we got 22 well did you feel like you needed to consult 23 other people 24 to go hire a lawyer to get a different point of 25 view ACLU-RDI 6806 p 223 This was you know our government Some people have asked me I said you know are we supposed We are operators We're clandestine Page 224 1 operators We rely on the government to tell us 2 what's legal and what's not 3 opinion that it was legal we went to work 4 MR JAMES SMITH 5 Mr Rodriguez 6 of you at this time THE WITNESS 8 MR LUSTBERG 9 questions 10 13 back Can I get the mic back You can't have it You don't need it BY MR LUSTBERG Q Okay Just a few questions for you Mr Rodriguez and then we'll be finished 16 17 I have just a few FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 14 15 Thank you MR JAMES SMITH 11 Thank you We have no further questions 7 12 When we got the First mostly what I'm going to ask you about is the individual plaintiffs here 18 A Okay 19 Q With regard to Mr Salim -- 20 A Okay 21 Q -- do you have any personal knowledge of 22 what his activities were prior to his being 23 captured 24 A No 25 Q Do you have any personal knowledge ACLU-RDI 6806 p 224 Page 225 1 regarding the circumstances of his capture 2 A No 3 Q Do you have any personal knowledge 4 regarding his treatment in captivity 5 A No 6 Q Second with respect to plaintiff Ben 7 Soud do you have any personal knowledge of his 8 activities prior to capture 9 A No 10 Q Do you have any personal knowledge about 11 the circumstances of his capture and or rendition 12 A No 13 Q Do you have any personal knowledge at 14 all with regard to the way he was treated in 15 captivity 16 A No 17 Q With regard to Rahman you said you've 18 read materials with regard to that 19 A Correct 20 Q You have no personal knowledge however 21 with regard to it is that correct 22 A 23 there 24 Q 25 yourself ACLU-RDI 6806 p 225 I was not there Right I was -- I was not You didn't observe anything Page 226 1 A Correct 2 Q And did you by the way have any 3 conversations with regard to Rahman with either 4 Dr Mitchell or Dr Jessen 5 A I don't recall any 6 Q They didn't report to you about what was 7 happening there 8 9 A They they didn't You know once that investigation -- once something like this happens 10 the IG takes over and there are referrals to 11 Justice and that's the end of it 12 them to come back and tell us what happened 13 Q We wait for So with regard to to Mr Rahman you 14 whatever inquiries you might have made you didn't 15 make because it was under investigation by the 16 authorities correct 17 A Yes 18 Q Let me show you Exhibit 44 19 Exhibit 44 was marked for 20 identification 21 BY MR LUSTBERG 22 Q This won't take you that long to read 23 A I was looking for a trick 24 Q I'll direct you 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 226 Okay Let me direct your attention Page 227 1 first to the page that's -- do you have yours 2 Jim 3 MR JAMES SMITH 4 I do all these redacted pages 5 MR LUSTBERG 6 to ask about the redacted pages 7 8 Well I'm not going MR JAMES SMITH I hope not BY MR LUSTBERG 9 Q But let me direct your attention to the 10 page that has the Bates number 001567 at the 11 bottom 12 A 1567 13 Q 1567 About halfway back I believe 14 Just take a quick read of that 15 too long It won't take you 16 Witness peruses document 17 THE WITNESS 18 BY MR LUSTBERG 19 20 Okay Q Tell me when you have read that paragraph 21 A Yes I have 22 Q Thank you Mr Rodriguez 23 At the conclusion of that description 24 it says the following 25 is -- you understand that this is Mister -- this ACLU-RDI 6806 p 227 Abdullah -- and this Page 228 1 is plaintiff Salim you understand from the 2 previous question correct 3 A Right 4 Q Underwent the following EITs standing 5 for enhanced interrogation techniques right 6 Sleep deprivation water dousing 7 cramped confinement facial slap attention grasp 8 belly slap and walling 9 Do you see that 10 A Yes I do 11 Q Mr Smith asked you a number of 12 questions about the fact that the enhanced 13 interrogation technique program was not supposed 14 to be used on on Mr Salim right 15 A Correct 16 Q It appears to you that at least elements 17 of it were correct 18 A It looks like that from this redaction 19 Q And we don't you don't have any personal 20 knowledge but based upon this right 21 A Yes 22 Q Is it your testimony that with regard to 23 any -- let me strike that 24 25 We've gone over the fact that the enhanced interrogation techniques were from that ACLU-RDI 6806 p 228 Page 229 1 list that was provided by Drs Mitchell and 2 Jessen right 3 A Correct 4 Q And that -- but that program was only 5 supposed to be applied to high-value detainees 6 that's what you said 7 A That is correct 8 Q Right so is it your testimony that 9 10 that it was only ever applied to high-value detainees 11 A My understanding is that it was only 12 applied to high-value 13 was designed for 14 Q That was that was what it Okay and the documents that we looked 15 at earlier show that for example the protocol 16 for enhanced interrogation techniques was sent to 17 Cobalt right 18 A Yes 19 Q And at Cobalt other than Al-Nashiri 20 there were no high-value detainees were there 21 A That is correct 22 Q Let me direct your attention to 23 paragraph 115 which is on Bates 001580 24 A 25 Do we know ACLU-RDI 6806 p 229 Can we understand what document this is Page 230 1 Q Do you recognize it 2 A No no 3 what -- 4 5 Q It's a Does it appear to be a CIA document to you just from what you -- 8 9 It's a little bit hard to document provided by the government 6 7 I'm just trying to figure out A It's hard to tell when everything is blank except that one -- 10 Q Right 11 A So I'm not in a position to make that 12 conclusion 13 Q 14 Okay So you don't know whether what's in this report is accurate or not 15 A I do not know 16 Q And you don't know whether this is a CIA 17 report or not 18 A I do not know 19 Q Okay With regard to Mr Ben Soud who 20 is also known as Abdul Karim also known as 21 Muhammad al-Sharu'iya do you see the description 22 on page 115 23 001580 001581 do you see that I'm sorry In paragraph 115 pages 24 A Yes yes 25 Q Among the things it says is that while ACLU-RDI 6806 p 230 Page 231 1 in CIA custody Abdul Karim underwent the 2 following EITs 3 slap abdominal slap attention grasp cramped 4 confinement water dousing walling stress 5 positions 6 Nudity sleep deprivation insult Do you see that 7 A Yes 8 Q And those are described in this report 9 as EITs correct 10 A Yes 11 Q And if that was done that was not 12 supposed to be to your mind what the program was 13 supposed to be for 14 A That is correct 15 Q And that's because to your mind he was 16 not a high-value detainee 17 A That is correct 18 Q And if and if these EITs were applied 19 to anybody other than high-value detainees you're 20 saying that that was not what was supposed to have 21 occurred 22 A Correct 23 Q Other than water dousing which was not 24 on the list all the rest of these techniques 25 which are described here as enhanced ACLU-RDI 6806 p 231 Page 232 1 interrogation techniques were on the list that 2 was part of the Mitchell and Jessen program 3 right 4 A That is correct 5 Q Okay Let me -- okay so we're going to 6 go back to Exhibit 5 which is the -- this is the 7 Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report 8 SSCI report 9 Discussion was held off the 10 11 record BY MR LUSTBERG 12 13 Q We're on page 103 of 499 footnote 603 I don't think you need to read the whole report 14 A No 15 Q You probably have though 16 Please If you could direct your attention to 17 page 103 footnote 603 I'm sorry Yeah 603 18 and then we're going to talk about 607 19 A 103 20 Q Mm-hmm 21 A Okay 103 22 Q Page 103 and in the footnotes let's 23 Do you see that first look at footnote number 603 24 A 603 25 Q Do you see it ACLU-RDI 6806 p 232 So it's halfway down the Page 233 1 page page 103 of 499 it should be 2 A Okay 103 of 499 3 Q Right and if you go to footnote 603 4 halfway down the page 5 6 MR BENNETT Here is 603 here BY MR LUSTBERG 7 Q Okay That footnote says al-Karim 8 who suffered from a foot injury incurred during 9 his capture was subjected to cramped confinement 10 stress positions and walling despite CIA 11 Headquarters having not approved their use 12 Do you see that 13 A Yes I do 14 Q Okay Then it says See Director and 15 it has some redactions Do you have an 16 understanding about when it says see director 17 what that refers to 18 A Well that's a cable 19 Q It's a cable to the director 20 A It's a cable from the director 21 Q The director being you 22 A No 23 Q Okay 24 The director of CIA Would it have been -- and so a cable -- 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 233 A From headquarters from headquarters -- Page 234 1 it's hard to tell from this 2 Q Were you aware that that this detainee 3 who's plaintiff Ben Soud here was subject to 4 cramped confinement stress positions and walling 5 A No 6 Q Did you ever see any cables to that 7 effect 8 A No 9 Q Let's look at footnote 607 down below 10 It's the very bottom 11 A Okay 12 Q It says Interrogators requested 13 approvals to use the CIA's enhanced interrogation 14 techniques on Suleiman Abdullah including water 15 dousing 16 Do you see that 17 A Yes 18 Q Now Abdullah which is plaintiff Salim 19 was -- it then says CIA Headquarters then 20 approved other techniques but not water dousing 21 A 22 techniques 23 Q 24 Right We don't know what other So you don't read that as being enhanced interrogation techniques 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 234 A I don't know Page 235 1 Q You have no idea 2 A No idea 3 Q And and that was not something that you 4 have any have any knowledge of or recollection 5 A No 6 Q Okay 7 We're going to go back just for a second to Exhibit 21 page 57 8 A What page 9 Q 57 10 A Okay 11 Q Toward the bottom of that page in the 12 last paragraph before the bullet point you can 13 see where it says -- a few names and then it 14 says and Abd al-Karim which we've discussed is 15 plaintiff Ben Soud appear s to have been 16 subjected to cramp confinement without prior 17 Headquarters approval 18 Do you see that 19 A Yes 20 Q Okay but then below in the bullet 21 point it says In the cases involving Abu Hazim 22 and Abd al-Karim Headquarters approved the 23 techniques the following month as components of 24 revised interrogation plans 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 235 Now do you have any knowledge of that Page 236 1 2 A I have no knowledge of that and I don't understand what it means 3 Q Okay When you say you don't understand 4 what it means it says it says here that al-Karim 5 appeared to have been subjected to camped 6 confinement without prior Headquarters approval 7 and then it says Headquarters approved the 8 techniques -- okay I'm sorry 9 after that talks about facial hold technique Then the sentence 10 these cases other previously approved enhanced 11 techniques were also used 12 In And then in the paragraph below that it 13 says Abd Al-Karim -- in the cases involving Abd 14 al-Karim Headquarters approved the techniques the 15 following months as components of revised 16 interrogation plans 17 Do you see that 18 A Yes I see that 19 Q Okay To your knowledge did 20 Headquarters ever approve the use of enhanced 21 interrogation techniques on people like this who 22 were not high-value detainees 23 A To my knowledge no 24 Q Okay 25 you have known ACLU-RDI 6806 p 236 If Headquarters did that would Page 237 1 A I should have known 2 Q And so this is the -- 3 A What what is the date of this 4 Q This is from the CIA -- 5 A Yeah but I mean what is the date they 6 are going back to 7 Q Oh I don't know 8 A Well that's key 9 Q Okay 10 A Because it depends on where I was 11 Q This is in 2003 12 A 2003 13 Q To your -- so in your view the enhanced 14 interrogation techniques program being limited 15 only to high-value detainees was a rule that was 16 followed 100 percent of the time 17 A Yes 18 Q Okay 19 A In my team 20 Q It was supposed to -- 21 A Mm-hmm 22 Q It was supposed to be followed 100 23 percent 24 A Yes mm-hmm 25 Q And to your knowledge Headquarters ACLU-RDI 6806 p 237 Page 238 1 notwithstanding this never improved the use of 2 enhanced interrogation techniques on anything 3 other than high-value detainees 4 A To my knowledge To my knowledge 5 Q Okay so every single time enhanced 6 interrogation techniques were applied to someone 7 other than a high-value detainee that would have 8 been without authorization of Headquarters 9 10 A it but I do not have any knowledge of that 11 12 Maybe somebody at Headquarters approved Q Okay So it's possible that somebody from Headquarters approved it 13 MR BENNETT 14 MR JAMES SMITH 15 MR BENNETT 16 Objection Objection Anything is possible BY MR LUSTBERG 17 Q Was there ever any discussion in your 18 presence about the use of enhanced interrogation 19 techniques on someone other than high-value 20 detainees 21 A No 22 Q That's something you never heard about 23 A I never heard about that 24 Q And so if that happened that was 25 something that was completely unknown to you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 238 Page 239 1 notwithstanding you were the head of CTC at that 2 time 3 A Yes 4 Q I have a few other questions 5 Just give me one minute 6 Just one more question about on that 7 issue 8 have been subjected to enhanced interrogation 9 techniques of whom 25 are not high-value 10 The CIA has acknowledged that 39 detainees detainees 11 12 Is it your testimony that every single one of those was done without authorization 13 A Where have they acknowledged that 14 Q I'm just asking you 15 So you have no knowledge of that 16 A No no 17 Q So do you have any idea of how many how 18 many detainees were subject to enhanced 19 interrogation techniques 20 A About 30 or something 21 Q Okay so and and of those 30 all of 22 them to your knowledge were high-value 23 detainees 24 A Yes 25 Q You have no knowledge of any medium or ACLU-RDI 6806 p 239 Page 240 1 low-value -- 2 A No 3 Q -- detainees who were subjected to that 4 A No 5 Q Did Drs Mitchell or Jessen select which 6 detainees were high-value detainees 7 Do you need to -- you want to take that 8 MR BENNETT 9 Let me just take one minute 10 MR LUSTBERG 11 Yeah do what you got to do 12 MR BENNETT 13 This is very urgent Just give me one minute 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 15 4 29 p m We are off the record 16 Whereupon a short recess was 17 taken 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 19 20 4 33 p m We're back on the record BY MR LUSTBERG 21 Q 22 Just one last follow-up question I had asked you about footnote a 23 footnote that said that interrogators requested 24 approvals to use the CIA's enhanced interrogation 25 techniques on defendant Salim ACLU-RDI 6806 p 240 CIA Headquarters Page 241 1 then approved other techniques but not water 2 dousing 3 4 If CIA Headquarters had approved it would that necessarily have gone through you 5 6 I don't I don't know I don't think Q It could have gone to somebody else at so 7 8 A Headquarters 9 A Perhaps 10 Q Just in terms of the process that 11 I really don't know Mr Smith was talking to you about earlier -- 12 A Yeah 13 Q -- first with regard to designated who 14 was a high-value detainee who made that decision 15 A The high-value detainees usually we 16 knew who the high-value detainees were so before 17 we ever captured them we we knew that 18 our assessment 19 that we went at it 20 leadership and that's the part that I was focused 21 on 22 assume but I -- 23 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 241 That that was usually the way I'm talking about the top I assume -- or I can't say that word Q 24 25 That was He's happy about his win right now MR BENNETT you Yeah the hell with Page 242 1 Laughter 2 THE WITNESS 3 Where was I BY MR LUSTBERG 4 Q So just my specific question is A 5 detainee is captured there's a decision made 6 about whether they're a high-value medium-value 7 or low-value detainee do you make that decision 8 9 A Usually before we even capture them we know that they're high-value Khalid Sheikh 10 Mohammed some of the other ones all of them we 11 knew that they were high-value 12 I can't think of a single case where we 13 started to debrief and we recognized that this was 14 a high-value that we didn't know about so in most 15 instances we went into it already knowing who the 16 high-value targets were 17 Q So all 30 -- you used the number 30 a 18 little while ago 19 think all 30 of those you knew before they were 20 captured were going to be high-value -- 21 22 A I know it's approximation Myself I knew most of them You I didn't know all of them but I knew most of them 23 Q But in every case they were identified 24 as high-value detainees before their capture is 25 that right ACLU-RDI 6806 p 242 Page 243 1 A Upon capture -- I don't know I don't 2 know if there was a label that was put on that 3 says okay this is it you know but we we knew 4 who they were and they immediately were sent to a 5 black site 6 Q As between medium-value and low-value 7 detainees you said those were in two other 8 categories 9 somebody was a medium-value versus a low-value 10 Who made the decision as to whether detainee 11 MR JOHNSON Just note we're not 12 waiving the question itself but no names or 13 identifying information 14 15 MR LUSTBERG Right BY MR LUSTBERG 16 Q Just so it's clear did you make the 17 decision as to who was a medium-value versus 18 low-value detainee 19 A No 20 Q Somebody else at the CIA did 21 A I think the definition was if they had 22 information that was threatening to the US 23 government or persons that that was the standard 24 25 Q But somebody would have to assess that and so I'm asking whether that person was you ACLU-RDI 6806 p 243 Page 244 1 A The CTC is a huge vast place with a lot 2 of people making decisions like this made 3 somewhere else 4 5 Q Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen did not select which detainees were high-value -- 6 A No 7 Q -- detainees did they 8 A No 9 Q So they designed a program for the CIA 10 to get prisoners to talk but the CIA would decide 11 which prisoners to apply it to is that right 12 A That is correct 13 Q And Dr Mitchell and Dr Jessen 14 consulted continuously for the CIA the entire time 15 that enhanced interrogation techniques were used 16 by the CIA right 17 A Correct 18 Q And they continued to consult on the 19 EITs for years after Abu Zubaydah right 20 A Yes There were a couple times when 21 they were stopped altogether because of legal 22 action or because of whatever so there were a 23 number of times when there was a hiatus in the use 24 of any techniques 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 244 Q Okay Hiatus in the use of any enhanced Page 245 1 interrogation -- 2 A Yes For example the 2004 Office of 3 Inspector General report came out Because of the 4 allegations in that report I think a decision was 5 made to stand down until we were able to get 6 clarification from Justice Department and then 7 when the '05 -- there was the Hamden case and 8 there was something else in 2005 in December where 9 again we had to suspend it because we felt that 10 the legal the legal ground that we had was being 11 eroded and we were concerned that our officers 12 were not being protected 13 Q Okay So there were times when the 14 program was suspended because there was concern 15 with its legality later on 16 A Because of the OIG report and because of 17 the the watering down of the legal authorities 18 that we had received back in 2002 19 20 Q When you say watering down what do you mean 21 A The solid legal ground that we had in 22 2002 that memo that we received from Justice 23 Department in August of 2002 telling us that the 24 ten techniques were legal they began to erode 25 legally ACLU-RDI 6806 p 245 Page 246 1 Q 2 Just three more questions So the whole time Dr Mitchell and 3 Dr Jessen's role was to consult and the CIA's 4 role was to decide which detainees would be 5 subject to the enhanced interrogation techniques 6 is that right 7 A We we were the ones that provided them 8 the plan 9 we can use these interrogation techniques on these 10 We were the ones that told them look individuals 11 Q With respect to specific individuals 12 A Yes 13 Q So the last question has to do with your 14 discussion that you had with Mr Smith regarding 15 the success of the program 16 A Correct 17 Q First of all with regard to Mukhtar 18 that's Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 19 A Yes 20 Q And Padilla that was all before the 21 enhanced interrogation -- 22 A Correct 23 Q -- techniques right 24 A Correct 25 Q So those successes are not attributable ACLU-RDI 6806 p 246 Page 247 1 to the enhanced interrogation techniques are 2 they 3 4 A No they are not and I think I was clear on that 5 Q Yeah and you said when you were 6 testifying with regard to this that this is 7 important to you it's on important part of -- 8 A Right 9 Q -- what you were involved in and what 10 your -- 11 A Correct 12 Q -- legacy is right 13 A Yes 14 Q And that's one of the reasons why you 15 react so strongly to the SSCI report right 16 A Well in addition to the fact that it's 17 factually wrong and it's it's not right what 18 they allege 19 MR BENNETT Can we go off the 20 record for just one second 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER 22 4 40 p m off the record 23 Whereupon a short recess was 24 taken 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER ACLU-RDI 6806 p 247 4 41 p m we're Page 248 1 2 back on the record BY MR LUSTBERG 3 Q Just to follow up on that point but 4 leaving aside that whatever the factual 5 inaccuracies are one of the things that bothers 6 you is that the SSCI report says that this program 7 didn't work when you say it did work right 8 A Exactly right 9 Q And to the extent that this lawsuit is 10 an attack -- do you view this lawsuit as an attack 11 on those techniques 12 A Well I just I just think it's very 13 unfair to have Jim and Bruce sued on cases where 14 they were not even involved you know so in that 15 case I just think it's unfair 16 17 Q Okay so you think it's unfair because they were not involved with -- 18 A They were not -- they have been charged 19 with something that they were not even involved 20 in 21 Q And and they were not involved in it 22 because your position is that the enhanced 23 interrogation techniques that they designed were 24 not used on those detainees 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 248 A They were not involved because they Page 249 1 don't even know these people They were not 2 involved in their interrogation 3 to do with them They had nothing 4 Comment off the record 5 MR LUSTBERG 6 good ideas for your answers 7 MR BENNETT 8 MR LUSTBERG 9 I'm sorry Okay I think I I don't have any further questions 11 at this time 12 MR JAMES SMITH 13 15 I do understand 10 14 Mr Bennett has some Just a few cleanup questions FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS BY MR JAMES SMITH 16 Q Just a couple of questions The report 17 the SSCI report Mr Rodriguez did anyone -- 18 you're familiar with who prepared that report 19 right 20 A 21 Intelligence 22 23 Q Did anyone from that organization ever ask to speak to you 24 25 Yeah the Senate Select Committee on A They didn't speak to me or anybody else that was involved in running it ACLU-RDI 6806 p 249 Page 250 1 Q And does that strike you as odd 2 A It's crazy 3 Q One other thing because I want to make 4 sure the record is clear here 5 My adversary my worthy adversary I 6 should say Mr Lustberg said that during the 7 period of time that Drs Mitchell and Jessen were 8 involved that they consulted continuously 9 Do you remember that 10 A Yes 11 Q Okay Just so we're clear anytime they 12 were involved in an enhanced interrogation 13 technique the US government picked the person 14 picked the procedures that would be used picked 15 the number of times it would be done everything 16 about it correct 17 A That is correct 18 Q Okay and they simply followed orders 19 A That is correct 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 250 MR JAMES SMITH Okay No further questions THE VIDEOGRAPHER 4 44 p m This concludes the deposition THE REPORTER the transcript Who wants a copy of Page 251 1 MR LUSTBERG 2 MR JAMES SMITH 3 MR JOHNSON 4 Yeah the original Of course I don't know yet have to ask the higher-ups 5 Signature having not been 6 waived the video deposition 7 of JOSE RODRIGUEZ was concluded 8 at 4 44 p m 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 251 I Page 252 1 2 3 4 5 6 ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF WITNESS 7 I Jose Rodriguez do hereby 8 acknowledge that I have read and examined the 9 foregoing testimony and the same is a true 10 correct and complete transcription of the 11 testimony given by me and any corrections 12 appear on the attached Errata sheet signed by 13 me 14 15 16 __________________ ______________________________ 17 DATE 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 252 SIGNATURE Page 253 1 E R R A T A S H E E T 2 IN RE 3 RETURN BY 4 PAGE LINE 5 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 6 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 7 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 8 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 9 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 10 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 11 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 12 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 13 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 14 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 15 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 16 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 17 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 18 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 19 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 20 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 21 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 22 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 23 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 24 _____________ ___________________________________ 25 DATE SIGNATURE ACLU-RDI 6806 p 253 SALIM ET AL VS MITCHELL AND JESSEN CORRECTION AND REASON Page 254 1 E R R A T A S H E E T 2 IN RE 3 RETURN BY 4 PAGE LINE 5 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 6 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 7 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 8 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 9 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 10 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 11 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 12 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 13 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 14 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 15 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 16 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 17 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 18 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 19 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 20 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 21 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 22 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 23 ____ _____ ___________________________________ 24 _____________ ___________________________________ 25 DATE SIGNATURE ACLU-RDI 6806 p 254 SALIM ET AL VS MITCHELL AND JESSEN CORRECTION AND REASON Page 255 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER -- NOTARY PUBLIC I Laurie Bangart Registered Professional Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken do hereby certify that the foregoing transcript is a true and correct record of the testimony given that said testimony was taken by me stenographically and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my supervision and that I am neither counsel for related to nor employed by any of the parties to this case and have no interest financial or otherwise in its outcome IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my notarial seal this 18th day of March 2017 My commission expires March 14th 2021 _____________________________ LAURIE BANGART NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ACLU-RDI 6806 p 255 Page 1 A Abd 140 6 210 9 235 14 22 236 13 236 13 abdominal 72 3 231 3 Abdul 230 20 231 1 Abdullah 1 4 6 21 189 9 191 5 13 227 24 234 14 18 able 104 12 124 4 151 12 152 17 163 7 177 10 178 25 219 22 220 14 221 2 5 16 245 5 absence 120 6 171 16 absolutely 14 2 97 5 151 17 213 6 213 14 abstracts 104 23 Abu 22 6 9 23 24 25 12 32 20 36 3 36 8 38 3 41 1 92 22 96 5 102 8 109 16 21 24 113 6 114 7 21 115 7 14 116 13 134 23 135 9 146 17 150 4 22 152 7 157 24 159 25 173 2 175 1 176 3 19 180 6 210 18 22 220 10 235 21 244 19 access 190 5 19 20 accompany 25 11 36 2 accomplishments 132 9 accord 190 4 account 67 17 accurate 56 12 230 14 achieve 85 7 acknowledge 133 8 252 8 acknowledged 239 7 13 ACKNOWLED 252 6 ACLU 5 4 5 acquired 11 9 67 9 220 10 Act 27 20 22 acted 181 20 acting 96 3 202 16 202 21 action 20 15 25 88 14 210 4 220 23 244 22 actions 120 14 17 121 10 213 19 active 192 20 193 20 actively 193 17 activities 24 22 224 22 225 8 activity 92 23 192 6 211 19 221 5 added 84 11 addition 21 13 157 13 166 25 177 10 220 3 247 16 address 162 21 addressing 190 9 administered 100 10 administration 143 3 15 20 admissible 79 8 advance 80 17 81 5 96 2 166 8 advanced 80 18 advantage 40 20 adversary 175 5 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 256 250 5 5 advice 120 14 157 16 206 4 advised 120 8 203 19 advising 121 9 Advisor 127 9 Advisory 32 3 advocated 106 17 advocates 116 6 affect 43 5 affiliate 209 22 24 affiliated 193 15 210 4 affixed 255 13 Afghanistan 191 17 210 19 211 19 Africa 191 6 African 191 15 agency 20 14 16 24 13 50 4 56 21 102 6 105 7 106 4 106 11 12 107 1 132 2 4 133 8 168 14 agents 149 16 17 aggressive 57 18 ago 49 17 76 20 102 3 242 18 agree 43 10 11 51 24 52 23 53 19 67 6 13 76 18 79 17 102 16 103 6 10 121 20 130 16 17 24 131 10 17 133 19 180 9 195 6 11 13 202 6 9 212 13 219 3 agreed 54 16 113 4 159 12 agreement 12 6 118 18 132 25 ahead 27 4 81 4 83 7 119 24 122 9 122 10 131 20 158 13 222 9 Air 21 24 37 18 airport 147 8 al 1 4 253 2 254 2 Alec 208 23 23 alerted 152 20 Ali 46 13 allegation 127 21 allegations 245 4 allege 247 18 allowed 73 6 136 20 167 22 220 4 6 17 23 221 3 8 17 19 Ally 191 16 altogether 244 21 Al-Karim 210 9 233 7 235 14 22 236 4 13 14 Al-Libi 210 10 Al-Nashiri 140 6 149 2 177 24 180 7 181 15 229 19 Al-Qaeda 21 20 39 11 42 17 43 1 43 18 al-Qa'ida 52 20 147 17 153 8 193 18 196 19 23 209 21 21 24 210 1 3 219 22 220 5 221 23 al-Qa'ida's 191 6 8 al-Sharu'iya 230 21 America 4 2 146 8 210 5 American 8 25 9 3 21 21 136 13 amount 66 23 analogized 123 16 analogy 123 20 analysis 20 16 21 4 21 8 104 20 107 4 analysts 114 8 25 176 15 and or 225 11 Angeles 147 8 Ann 3 21 9 13 answer 12 7 18 14 1 5 11 27 23 44 18 53 15 16 17 83 7 102 18 112 20 116 15 122 6 123 23 178 17 21 answered 94 21 98 20 answering 14 15 answers 99 3 112 21 249 6 anthrax 150 18 anticipation 176 25 anybody 65 23 24 95 10 107 10 108 19 117 18 143 19 231 19 249 24 anymore 113 11 116 22 anytime 167 8 199 1 250 11 anyway 53 16 130 14 148 18 apartments 152 24 152 25 apologize 64 11 104 5 170 19 apostrophe 210 15 apparently 182 11 202 15 22 appear 208 19 230 6 252 12 appearance 8 17 Appearances 4 1 5 1 appeared 236 5 appears 195 15 216 24 228 16 appear s 235 15 Page 2 applicability 98 1 8 applicable 96 8 application 101 17 107 6 135 12 12 applied 23 22 24 12 18 25 4 32 6 34 14 67 3 73 1 77 24 25 78 4 10 82 5 98 14 130 21 157 16 190 15 229 5 9 12 231 18 238 6 apply 116 22 190 18 244 11 applying 32 12 34 6 48 13 49 7 98 16 105 10 111 6 appreciably 105 2 approach 116 8 approaches 40 8 appropriate 137 24 156 6 169 10 19 169 25 190 5 6 approval 60 5 12 60 20 61 1 7 80 18 81 5 88 2 89 5 96 20 22 97 20 101 4 127 10 12 167 1 5 167 12 19 20 168 2 13 169 3 170 24 235 17 236 6 approvals 170 21 234 13 240 24 approve 65 5 69 19 167 15 218 8 236 20 approved 60 18 65 9 12 69 10 72 8 73 4 11 13 73 22 74 2 4 7 77 7 80 16 92 21 127 11 142 14 166 7 20 167 1 13 168 16 21 169 6 218 10 233 11 234 20 235 22 236 7 10 14 238 9 238 12 241 1 3 approximate 146 15 approximately 173 6 198 6 approximation 242 18 April 23 23 158 24 217 22 April May 151 11 aquerns@blankr 3 22 Arab 42 25 43 17 45 10 arbitrator 116 2 architect 51 25 52 22 25 53 20 architects 184 2 architecture 184 11 area 47 22 87 2 142 8 areas 136 23 argument 116 7 Armed 192 16 Army 142 20 25 arrangement 16 14 arrest 221 20 arrested 152 21 articles 142 9 articulate 27 5 aside 248 4 asked 19 18 26 23 27 2 3 13 28 23 36 1 44 10 14 50 22 51 19 54 15 55 7 57 13 23 58 3 82 25 83 20 90 7 107 10 114 9 124 16 155 25 157 1 162 2 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 257 182 12 183 7 185 16 200 25 201 17 20 202 17 203 8 9 205 8 215 6 217 6 223 21 228 11 240 22 asking 13 8 60 18 60 19 61 20 63 13 65 14 83 22 109 23 113 1 118 5 138 2 148 13 163 24 239 14 243 25 aspects 132 20 assailed 116 6 assault 127 3 assertion 27 19 103 6 assess 132 15 133 9 243 24 assessed 132 4 206 5 assesses 209 4 assessing 132 3 134 11 assessment 201 18 201 21 24 203 10 203 13 208 8 241 18 assignment 46 10 46 17 assignments 47 16 assist 48 12 49 7 51 4 159 20 190 8 assisted 218 22 assisting 128 10 159 25 associated 102 10 assume 14 12 20 9 24 15 36 15 38 8 73 2 3 76 2 19 77 12 86 9 96 13 99 3 108 5 6 124 23 24 155 8 9 190 25 191 21 22 210 10 241 21 22 assumed 86 8 110 15 147 22 assurance 90 10 assurances 89 21 assure 100 13 assured 88 14 Assuring 88 10 attached 33 14 252 12 attack 115 14 116 4 176 24 25 219 19 248 10 10 attacked 221 24 222 6 attacks 22 7 10 38 21 88 13 150 18 19 191 8 193 17 20 220 2 221 10 15 attended 50 19 84 23 attention 23 12 53 22 54 20 57 4 58 15 60 13 63 22 72 1 75 6 77 3 78 8 86 11 99 24 162 7 194 24 226 25 227 9 228 7 229 22 231 3 232 16 attorney 53 13 15 attorneys 10 20 attractive 40 3 attributable 246 25 August 6 19 69 8 173 6 177 18 245 23 authentic 79 18 119 6 authored 42 19 186 23 authorities 87 19 88 15 162 23 223 4 5 6 226 16 245 17 authority 164 3 7 223 7 authorization 97 16 238 8 239 12 authorize 172 1 7 172 11 14 authorized 87 7 164 2 185 3 authorizing 171 13 171 22 Avenue 4 5 avoid 161 2 Avram 9 7 awake 125 13 17 aware 16 20 38 25 74 13 77 10 96 15 96 16 112 7 117 9 185 1 19 189 8 198 3 201 23 202 20 204 5 14 204 19 207 25 208 2 234 2 AZ 36 7 AZ's 35 25 36 14 A-B-D 208 9 212 6 A-H-M-A-D 210 14 17 A-L 208 9 210 14 212 6 a m 1 16 8 10 29 16 29 20 68 12 16 a k a 210 10 15 B b 6 9 29 10 12 23 30 17 24 47 5 back 15 2 18 19 20 18 21 29 20 34 21 50 16 52 7 56 2 3 65 14 68 16 77 3 78 8 87 18 18 94 24 96 18 97 11 115 8 116 19 142 11 23 143 4 8 143 12 144 11 Page 3 149 13 24 152 1 152 20 153 10 159 8 163 19 165 1 7 22 172 23 175 4 177 17 179 23 182 15 183 5 22 185 24 188 9 197 9 198 3 199 8 13 203 15 212 20 214 20 24 224 9 11 226 12 227 13 232 6 235 6 237 6 240 19 245 18 248 1 background 17 9 39 11 43 16 45 3 45 4 14 19 25 46 5 62 14 144 23 182 16 backtrack 56 5 back-and-forth 123 15 bad 93 2 3 baffling 127 4 Bagram 190 3 Bangart 1 25 2 18 8 15 255 6 19 barber 56 16 22 base 123 1 132 22 based 33 23 49 14 59 25 71 5 76 22 76 23 83 2 13 95 3 96 24 97 21 104 22 106 19 107 22 126 18 134 4 140 8 8 11 141 19 25 228 20 basic 13 14 basing 223 14 basis 26 21 27 25 32 14 186 9 192 14 17 Bates 6 16 17 23 25 7 3 5 11 21 71 17 81 13 14 82 20 95 24 118 6 120 3 161 23 187 7 194 19 207 10 215 12 13 18 216 6 227 10 229 23 Bates-numbered 129 7 battle 196 6 11 battlefield 190 11 battling 196 12 13 bear 114 4 bears 161 23 194 19 207 9 215 11 Beckman 5 6 9 24 9 24 10 21 began 19 1 25 8 59 21 113 7 114 7 245 24 beginning 53 9 126 25 127 1 130 25 begins 8 3 behalf 3 2 13 4 2 4 10 8 21 23 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15 184 13 15 241 14 242 5 7 243 8 17 245 4 decisions 126 12 13 160 11 244 2 decision-maker 160 25 decision-makers 160 18 20 176 8 declaration 6 12 15 6 10 16 16 12 17 3 6 25 18 29 12 33 15 46 20 58 17 18 59 12 17 61 16 62 4 10 63 12 67 20 68 21 84 18 85 19 97 2 126 23 135 7 137 2 139 4 154 2 154 12 17 18 declared 137 7 15 declassified 220 11 declination 96 1 dedicated 57 20 defendant 240 25 defendants 1 9 3 13 9 10 14 137 18 144 12 249 14 definitely 63 4 definition 18 17 243 21 degree 22 17 27 16 178 22 delay 127 10 Deliverables 32 11 department 4 3 9 18 10 16 66 7 66 15 69 8 10 88 19 89 24 95 2 95 6 96 20 22 101 7 103 18 223 4 16 245 6 23 dependent 43 7 depending 164 23 depends 161 6 163 11 237 10 deployed 218 8 deployment 218 9 218 10 deposed 15 2 16 25 deposition 1 13 2 1 8 4 10 11 3 4 13 12 21 13 11 15 5 250 23 251 6 255 7 depositions 15 25 deprivation 60 16 72 4 123 25 124 1 124 8 142 13 228 6 231 2 deprive 124 18 deprived 124 9 depth 121 22 describe 161 18 described 31 13 71 21 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sufficient 192 17 suggest 171 17 205 24 suggested 175 17 176 8 215 17 218 19 suggestion 201 1 203 24 suggestions 205 12 Suleiman 1 4 6 20 191 4 192 4 25 193 24 234 14 summary 42 24 summer 153 11 158 20 supervision 255 10 support 19 18 Page 25 23 22 24 10 13 102 12 149 22 182 6 193 17 supported 182 3 supporting 32 19 196 14 supportive 196 23 supposed 15 2 78 6 78 10 152 15 182 6 212 25 223 23 228 13 229 5 231 12 13 231 20 237 20 22 sure 20 18 25 13 27 10 13 42 6 43 20 50 16 58 14 68 9 87 10 20 88 1 21 90 6 91 24 92 24 93 9 98 18 104 10 106 16 107 1 123 14 128 25 150 9 167 14 168 12 169 2 170 13 175 12 184 4 190 22 200 13 201 4 214 1 14 219 1 222 16 250 4 surprise 114 13 surprised 183 20 surprisingly 116 11 surveying 120 17 121 10 Survival 21 24 suspected 191 5 suspend 245 9 suspended 245 14 swear 10 8 sworn 10 9 13 2 18 synonymous 145 5 S-H-U-R-U 210 14 S-U-L-E-I-M-A-N 189 9 T T 3 19 6 9 253 1 1 254 1 1 tactics 45 2 take 14 18 15 15 25 17 29 10 31 10 35 21 40 7 43 13 47 24 50 5 57 17 57 21 24 58 4 63 2 18 64 11 15 65 12 66 24 68 7 69 24 70 9 23 78 13 16 88 14 90 17 92 8 97 4 105 23 116 1 16 116 18 118 10 137 1 141 13 146 5 166 19 187 8 190 3 191 2 191 2 192 8 200 25 205 8 207 10 220 23 221 19 20 226 22 227 14 14 240 7 8 taken 2 17 8 11 29 18 67 17 68 14 97 9 110 4 120 14 142 16 144 9 148 10 149 7 151 24 163 17 179 22 190 23 196 2 9 199 6 211 25 212 17 214 18 240 17 247 24 255 7 9 takes 50 4 226 10 talk 18 24 43 25 53 9 94 1 95 13 113 6 134 24 136 25 146 18 149 1 150 23 163 7 164 2 165 21 172 24 173 10 199 21 206 7 12 214 3 232 18 244 10 talked 56 7 93 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 280 94 15 125 24 217 19 218 11 talking 65 17 68 20 94 13 104 7 131 11 143 6 151 8 10 156 9 163 23 217 24 241 11 19 talks 62 6 138 16 236 9 tall 180 13 Tanzania 191 9 Tanzanian 191 5 tape 182 17 196 8 219 15 tapes 90 2 3 11 91 4 8 12 15 17 92 7 12 15 20 93 1 7 9 18 94 8 176 21 22 22 23 target 145 2 164 19 192 20 targeters 114 8 targets 76 25 77 1 78 1 3 242 16 Task 34 5 tasked 157 13 taskings 31 16 tasks 131 6 team 25 11 32 19 36 2 81 7 91 21 143 16 149 23 150 15 181 9 237 19 technical 23 21 24 1 9 25 2 29 15 144 6 technique 80 25 81 2 82 12 83 4 83 15 97 17 101 5 107 22 157 8 166 7 218 23 219 3 228 13 236 9 250 13 techniques 38 13 38 16 42 18 57 18 58 8 60 8 11 19 60 22 61 1 62 17 62 20 22 63 8 24 64 19 20 65 5 25 66 25 67 3 8 69 7 69 9 12 13 14 25 70 1 71 10 13 18 71 21 21 23 72 1 72 7 16 73 1 5 15 73 20 74 7 20 21 75 2 20 76 9 13 76 17 21 24 77 7 77 24 78 9 80 17 80 19 81 6 24 82 4 83 24 87 7 94 25 95 4 12 96 21 23 98 2 9 100 9 101 17 103 7 106 19 107 6 110 24 111 6 117 6 10 14 117 20 121 1 21 122 2 19 123 6 124 10 125 16 126 1 8 20 127 11 131 4 16 133 10 133 22 24 134 7 135 13 24 142 25 143 9 155 3 22 156 8 10 25 157 21 23 165 9 166 1 1 3 168 9 168 17 19 169 5 170 9 171 3 22 172 2 8 12 15 20 173 1 7 15 18 22 173 24 174 8 175 1 18 181 17 184 8 14 20 185 4 186 4 197 15 205 10 17 25 206 2 212 22 222 17 228 5 25 229 16 231 24 232 1 234 14 20 234 22 24 235 23 236 8 11 14 21 237 14 238 2 6 19 239 9 19 240 25 241 1 244 15 24 245 24 246 5 9 23 247 1 248 11 23 technology 24 4 92 4 10 tell 13 18 22 6 9 38 21 52 9 74 1 77 16 104 12 109 14 126 6 135 6 145 8 17 25 147 14 148 13 17 151 12 153 5 156 2 158 10 160 14 164 4 5 169 24 176 18 177 10 179 3 186 8 187 10 188 18 195 10 196 4 8 200 21 209 19 23 210 22 215 22 221 2 5 224 1 226 12 227 19 230 8 234 1 telling 115 19 164 6 188 5 219 18 223 18 245 23 ten 19 3 245 24 tend 12 14 tends 69 3 Tenet 44 9 58 11 70 25 167 7 term 85 13 86 3 terms 29 4 30 25 33 24 34 18 43 17 44 15 47 21 67 16 85 15 89 1 112 10 112 15 146 16 241 10 terrorist 147 3 192 5 211 4 6 19 221 4 Page 26 terrorists 52 20 164 8 10 11 193 19 204 7 209 25 testified 13 2 77 6 159 10 217 14 testifying 247 6 testimony 34 17 145 1 176 14 185 9 199 22 204 3 228 22 229 8 239 11 252 9 11 255 8 9 Text 162 16 thank 10 13 12 22 14 25 30 23 35 13 42 6 44 20 50 11 52 13 68 17 80 4 80 6 81 17 84 12 87 4 97 12 103 3 120 2 122 16 143 23 158 7 164 25 179 25 194 11 224 4 7 227 22 Thanks 57 9 59 18 theory 144 18 20 185 17 192 18 212 21 thing 26 25 32 18 46 14 70 10 75 23 115 21 124 5 135 22 175 15 250 3 things 90 17 109 20 111 17 112 2 137 5 142 22 156 6 158 4 206 24 217 13 20 230 25 248 5 think 37 3 41 11 42 14 54 7 14 56 21 63 5 88 2 90 2 13 15 94 16 94 20 95 5 13 100 24 108 2 13 109 6 112 9 14 121 24 122 1 18 122 23 123 19 124 1 128 15 131 25 25 134 15 140 24 141 7 7 9 141 11 142 21 143 25 148 10 149 25 151 14 159 10 164 12 167 11 11 13 14 167 22 173 20 178 1 18 182 18 184 1 186 22 200 16 203 4 209 12 213 24 215 16 217 14 218 17 219 11 232 13 241 5 242 12 19 243 21 245 4 247 3 248 12 15 16 249 8 thinking 40 2 215 22 third 71 7 8 155 13 165 2 187 19 Thirteenth 4 12 Thirty 57 22 thought 17 1 40 18 45 11 57 22 92 9 109 5 119 2 15 147 15 179 6 202 15 216 11 14 223 7 thousands 220 15 thread 156 14 threat 134 24 135 18 19 145 21 threatened 115 8 197 1 threatening 202 25 203 1 3 243 22 threats 145 11 150 18 151 5 three 124 4 146 21 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 281 172 20 186 22 212 23 213 7 15 213 18 214 6 10 221 23 246 1 throwing 203 5 thrown 202 22 thwart 88 13 time 8 10 14 17 16 25 17 14 21 22 21 23 23 23 13 18 28 11 29 16 19 31 10 36 20 22 24 37 17 38 25 39 18 43 14 51 3 56 21 58 11 63 18 64 12 64 15 66 24 67 6 67 7 68 11 15 70 25 78 16 88 25 90 16 18 23 94 5 97 6 10 105 6 106 3 109 17 25 110 4 14 19 23 112 12 118 10 121 16 124 12 125 10 133 21 134 23 23 144 10 147 5 18 149 14 149 25 150 25 151 11 21 25 153 2 16 17 21 158 25 159 17 23 163 14 164 22 167 7 13 172 25 176 2 7 185 2 196 1 198 9 202 1 204 7 206 15 16 210 3 212 16 217 7 16 222 14 224 6 237 16 238 5 239 2 244 14 246 2 249 11 250 7 times 17 21 47 24 87 6 88 1 129 5 175 5 223 13 244 20 23 245 13 250 15 time-consuming 88 11 Timothy 4 8 10 15 timothy johnson 4 9 title 18 17 19 11 14 19 17 21 52 21 96 7 130 3 161 7 titles 161 5 6 today 8 9 10 19 11 1 10 13 9 23 17 33 11 79 4 155 18 165 8 175 5 194 22 197 20 199 22 204 12 217 6 14 218 18 220 21 221 2 today's 11 3 told 39 5 56 16 69 22 97 25 98 7 98 12 115 9 123 3 181 24 204 16 205 16 246 8 top 34 1 52 20 76 8 130 5 5 132 12 133 15 215 3 241 19 topics 11 5 torture 18 17 23 7 23 10 143 4 6 totally 82 19 127 23 tough 202 16 track 221 17 tracked 36 1 152 19 traditional 150 21 151 1 traditionally 39 19 traffic 80 20 81 8 170 23 25 trained 191 16 training 17 20 22 17 42 18 45 1 47 23 25 211 3 4 211 4 6 221 18 trains 45 1 transcript 250 25 255 8 transcription 252 10 transfer 189 22 190 8 transition 143 16 189 2 translates 45 9 traveling 140 6 travesty 127 24 treat 170 16 treated 225 14 treatment 225 4 tremendous 37 10 37 13 21 67 10 14 67 15 tremendously 108 10 trick 226 23 tried 22 8 trouble 180 22 true 16 10 11 46 11 46 15 47 1 3 4 10 47 11 48 24 51 1 55 11 12 13 66 17 66 21 74 12 85 19 92 13 109 9 18 19 109 20 113 17 114 17 115 17 139 14 142 5 157 10 173 9 175 15 19 20 21 175 25 176 1 6 11 191 11 20 193 4 212 21 213 5 214 4 7 8 11 252 9 255 8 Trump 143 2 trusted 66 19 truth 13 18 16 17 try 41 1 48 18 62 20 92 10 Page 27 122 13 trying 86 4 93 12 116 2 124 12 180 17 20 230 2 Tuesday 1 15 8 9 turn 34 1 46 19 67 19 97 2 115 23 115 23 155 13 162 14 165 2 170 17 187 19 188 24 204 18 208 6 215 9 13 turned 111 12 189 3 turning 115 9 10 188 19 TV 22 25 23 1 2 4 two 17 19 35 25 36 14 74 13 75 3 82 5 85 24 86 4 88 8 116 12 124 4 128 22 23 132 13 136 23 151 6 6 13 152 6 162 19 173 6 198 6 220 16 21 243 7 two-page 186 3 18 two-week 176 7 type 24 4 6 121 17 152 16 223 20 typewriting 255 10 58 14 69 2 75 2 82 23 86 4 18 88 21 92 24 106 16 122 13 136 22 180 18 206 8 219 25 25 227 25 228 1 229 24 236 2 3 249 9 understanding 16 23 137 12 14 138 10 139 16 19 139 24 140 4 9 12 140 12 141 3 17 141 18 165 12 166 22 200 4 5 22 201 16 204 21 205 15 18 20 206 1 14 229 11 233 16 understands 45 12 183 11 understood 14 12 148 20 209 19 undertake 205 13 undertaken 120 15 underwent 228 4 231 1 unfair 248 13 15 16 Unfortunately 220 11 Union 8 25 9 3 U United 1 1 4 2 9 18 ugly 94 9 10 17 24 11 2 ultimate 160 18 12 12 19 18 17 ultimately 36 25 96 2 4 7 115 15 61 6 173 14 23 116 4 145 12 um 96 19 137 5 146 7 147 19 unauthorized 161 23 174 7 171 19 175 24 176 4 unclassified 12 2 184 15 187 7 27 25 193 9 194 18 understand 11 4 195 5 9 196 14 13 21 22 14 9 207 9 210 5 15 23 20 18 25 13 211 13 219 6 40 19 43 20 25 unknown 238 25 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 282 unpack 93 13 Unruh 4 19 10 5 5 unsupportable 127 4 urgent 240 12 usage 105 7 106 4 106 12 use 38 2 12 15 40 19 20 25 50 24 60 16 68 1 72 5 6 73 11 13 20 22 75 1 78 22 80 19 81 6 7 24 86 6 90 4 92 25 100 5 102 10 14 117 6 117 10 14 19 127 12 166 6 168 21 170 23 184 14 205 17 25 206 1 233 11 234 13 236 20 238 1 18 240 24 244 23 25 246 9 USF 171 3 USG 190 9 usual 188 16 usually 241 15 18 242 8 utilized 151 2 172 20 181 2 11 utilizing 59 23 222 18 U S 8 6 96 8 100 11 152 15 25 189 6 U S C 27 21 22 U S S 149 4 V vague 152 13 valuable 114 8 134 9 222 3 value 29 25 78 3 127 23 128 3 132 21 188 21 various 67 25 68 23 69 3 4 76 16 212 15 vast 244 1 verbal 223 6 version 54 6 versus 8 5 101 18 107 7 243 9 17 vet 49 24 vetting 50 3 video 251 6 videoconference 115 25 116 1 videographer 5 3 8 2 13 10 7 29 14 29 19 68 11 15 97 6 10 144 5 10 151 21 25 163 14 163 18 179 19 23 199 3 7 214 15 19 240 14 18 247 21 247 25 250 22 videotape 8 3 116 8 125 6 9 11 Videotaped 1 13 2 1 view 41 17 93 4 112 3 5 201 18 220 12 223 25 237 13 248 10 views 44 1 67 17 130 19 vigorously 116 12 violating 163 8 virtually 132 19 virtue 74 17 19 136 17 vision 37 11 24 38 1 2 17 20 vivid 217 23 voiced 116 9 voluntarily 112 7 112 23 113 2 3 volunteer 100 13 volunteers 100 11 vs 1 6 253 2 254 2 W wait 226 11 waived 251 6 waiving 79 14 243 12 Walcott 5 7 9 22 22 10 20 wall 60 15 72 3 walling 60 14 72 2 135 16 228 8 231 4 233 10 234 4 want 20 18 23 12 25 13 27 13 28 8 29 9 30 8 31 24 35 1 42 4 43 20 46 3 19 48 5 50 16 58 14 59 19 60 13 67 19 70 4 75 5 6 78 21 84 16 87 5 5 89 8 99 17 102 4 104 9 112 24 118 8 122 15 136 24 25 137 1 142 11 149 13 160 2 162 6 165 3 21 172 23 24 25 173 10 175 4 12 177 17 180 14 184 4 186 9 21 188 6 11 189 15 199 21 212 20 215 9 222 16 223 6 240 7 250 3 wanted 55 21 22 24 69 1 87 10 20 88 1 90 6 91 24 92 15 112 17 19 112 22 114 9 116 4 119 16 130 15 136 8 10 156 3 157 19 168 12 169 2 190 19 20 21 wants 144 1 250 24 war 145 19 Page 28 Washington 1 1 14 2 7 4 6 13 8 7 11 wasn't 56 22 23 24 136 7 168 15 212 24 waste 202 23 203 6 watch 219 15 watches 182 17 196 7 water 125 15 228 6 231 4 23 234 14 234 20 241 1 waterboard 60 16 72 6 102 15 105 1 105 5 6 10 106 2 106 3 9 11 114 10 114 20 waterboarded 113 8 11 167 9 171 11 174 12 14 174 17 181 16 waterboarding 114 14 115 7 14 116 10 13 21 25 142 12 167 4 12 171 13 18 176 9 176 12 177 5 12 watering 245 17 19 wave 150 19 221 15 way 21 18 56 4 70 17 90 15 91 13 92 11 93 1 100 12 108 16 112 24 113 1 116 5 122 14 125 13 129 18 136 15 16 152 20 156 5 6 161 9 173 20 195 16 24 209 14 223 5 225 14 226 2 241 18 ways 127 16 164 22 week 84 19 weeks 90 22 173 6 198 6 welcome 143 24 went 17 21 23 18 8 30 1 32 19 43 24 44 2 65 7 11 73 4 89 8 9 13 14 16 90 4 14 158 23 180 24 208 3 223 8 224 3 241 19 242 15 weren't 84 3 we'll 8 19 14 11 35 16 78 20 119 21 144 6 24 180 2 214 23 224 15 we're 10 25 11 9 15 10 17 14 28 18 29 20 35 15 52 3 53 25 54 6 68 16 97 11 109 21 118 22 119 5 6 131 11 138 5 151 22 152 1 157 4 163 18 165 23 169 14 174 11 175 12 179 19 186 17 23 194 4 199 3 7 207 2 214 19 219 1 222 16 223 25 232 5 12 232 18 235 6 240 18 243 11 247 25 250 11 we've 26 23 217 20 228 24 235 14 whacked 222 11 WHEREOF 255 13 White 142 14 Wikipedia 19 8 willing 57 20 24 win 241 23 wish 44 21 101 22 135 1 withdraw 26 18 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 283 30 5 52 10 59 15 64 25 160 23 170 4 206 24 214 2 withdrawn 28 7 17 98 6 105 24 130 22 withstand 45 2 witness 4 10 10 2 8 10 9 11 12 27 8 27 23 28 20 53 2 54 10 57 7 61 20 61 23 63 19 25 64 1 13 77 15 18 78 17 24 79 23 81 12 82 18 83 9 86 10 95 17 99 12 99 21 22 103 5 108 7 118 11 119 20 24 122 6 122 10 131 21 138 8 143 24 152 6 154 13 155 10 160 24 178 20 180 3 187 12 13 191 23 198 25 207 14 15 212 3 213 11 214 14 24 222 10 224 7 227 16 17 242 2 252 6 255 13 WMD 152 15 woke 124 23 wonder 82 14 word 39 23 50 1 122 9 208 9 210 9 210 10 13 14 17 210 17 19 212 6 241 21 words 13 25 145 3 146 11 204 6 work 17 11 25 8 30 5 31 17 21 34 22 43 19 21 48 2 51 10 69 23 98 11 127 22 128 2 129 8 132 18 158 11 177 13 206 5 223 8 224 3 248 7 248 7 worked 17 22 39 20 21 87 17 93 10 108 8 173 21 working 24 8 34 25 37 19 41 5 42 2 50 23 52 20 66 25 85 7 91 2 111 5 123 17 146 10 159 1 world 41 16 worry 61 17 18 worth 109 1 worthy 250 5 wouldn't 60 4 148 17 wounded 109 16 24 110 4 7 8 14 18 110 24 write 42 24 57 13 80 12 14 85 1 87 25 88 7 writes 55 6 115 4 writing 88 15 89 24 95 7 8 170 24 written 59 3 87 9 125 23 170 24 223 6 wrong 107 20 117 3 137 20 138 1 247 17 wrote 80 15 128 5 160 3 9 X X 6 9 180 13 20 Xanax 188 11 Y Yahya 210 22 yeah 30 14 35 8 16 61 18 23 64 17 75 11 78 22 81 4 82 8 87 14 118 10 123 19 130 21 133 25 144 20 169 14 196 21 232 17 237 5 240 10 241 12 24 247 5 249 20 251 1 year 172 4 years 16 18 17 19 37 18 47 7 83 2 83 13 93 12 102 3 135 3 171 8 221 23 244 19 Y-A-H-Y-A 210 19 210 23 211 1 Z zero 137 4 Zoloft 188 12 Zubaydah 22 6 9 23 24 25 12 32 20 36 3 8 38 3 41 2 50 25 59 6 22 62 6 67 24 68 2 96 5 102 8 109 16 109 21 24 113 6 114 7 21 115 7 14 116 13 135 9 146 17 20 22 25 147 12 18 21 148 6 23 149 8 15 150 4 22 152 7 153 12 157 24 159 4 21 25 167 8 173 2 19 25 174 9 174 12 175 2 176 3 15 19 177 20 180 6 181 1 182 18 220 10 22 221 8 244 19 Zubaydah's 62 11 Page 29 134 23 10 10 8 10 Z-A-B-A-N-D-A-R 10 33 29 16 210 17 10 37 29 20 100 119 4 237 16 $ 237 22 $10 000 29 5 30 1 102 139 19 141 15 30 11 152 23 141 20 21 $101 600 29 6 30 1 103 141 20 232 12 30 18 232 17 19 21 22 $180 132 23 233 1 2 105 140 3 141 15 0 141 21 000022 6 11 108 141 15 21 001061 6 25 194 19 11 6 11 46 24 75 7 001063 6 25 82 3 8 20 173 14 001170 6 16 215 1 11 001174 6 16 11 31 68 12 001496 7 4 207 10 11 44 68 16 001500 7 4 207 10 110 141 15 21 001542 6 23 187 8 114 141 15 23 001544 6 23 115 229 23 230 22 001551 7 6 230 22 001567 227 10 1170 161 23 001580 229 23 1172 71 17 81 15 230 23 1173 81 13 16 001581 230 23 1174 161 24 001587 7 6 118 6 18 001595 215 12 119 179 10 001760 6 18 12 25 18 19 20 25 001763 118 6 120 4 130 3 156 25 001765 6 18 157 5 165 17 03 172 5 173 14 175 17 04 172 5 184 7 186 3 05 245 7 12-step 213 13 07102 3 5 12 24 97 7 121 127 1 1 122 127 2 1 8 3 12 10 28 3 125 127 7 30 15 34 5 69 8 13 6 3 120 8 121 4 129 21 216 3 130 3 16 1 03 97 11 138 6 21 10 62 3 102 23 14 216 3 6 103 2 104 7 9 14 14th 255 15 104 17 115 24 144 6 4 129 9 10 15 6 12 114 6 135 3 10 00 1 16 137 4 216 6 9 9 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 284 1544 187 8 1567 227 12 13 1608 216 6 1609 82 21 215 12 215 13 18 216 24 17 6 19 127 8 130 24 132 12 162 24 163 2 24 1758 135 5 18 18 17 96 7 99 10 115 3 18th 3 16 255 14 1825 2 6 187 6 23 19 6 22 126 25 19103 3 17 194 6 25 1976 17 16 1993 191 14 1998 191 8 2 2 25 18 20 195 19 2 05 144 5 2 07 144 11 2 15 151 21 2 15-CV-286-JLP 8 8 2 15-cv-286-JLQ 1 6 2 17 152 1 2 30 163 15 2 34 163 18 2 51 179 19 2 53 179 23 20 4 5 11 21 15 17 103 4 129 22 2000 147 2 20004 4 13 20006 2 7 2001 19 1 23 21 46 24 146 10 157 15 162 24 163 3 2002 6 24 18 4 19 25 20 7 21 23 23 23 50 14 19 58 22 59 20 64 4 64 4 84 19 120 8 121 4 127 8 148 8 148 9 149 6 150 13 151 11 153 11 155 7 158 21 24 159 1 159 16 165 14 171 8 177 18 185 2 217 22 245 18 22 23 2003 6 15 70 15 77 4 209 15 237 11 12 2004 6 22 171 8 185 3 209 15 245 2 2005 132 16 245 8 2006 132 21 2007 132 24 2008 6 19 2016 11 21 2017 1 15 8 9 16 1 255 14 202 514-1359 4 7 202 637-5600 4 14 202 772-5815 2 8 2021 255 15 20530 4 6 207 7 4 21 104 17 128 18 129 15 235 7 215 569-5643 3 18 22 11 22 224 6 3 226 7 6 2340A 96 7 24 11 22 16 1 249 6 4 25 95 16 128 21 129 6 130 5 239 9 25s 128 22 26 104 16 3 3 19 22 137 6 162 16 191 7 3 15 199 3 3 26 199 7 3 45 214 15 3 56 214 19 30 66 23 67 3 116 14 239 20 21 242 17 17 19 30-day 113 15 117 1 3024 27 22 302803 1 24 31 6 15 70 15 77 4 35 6 14 3507 27 21 36 6 12 15 11 12 33 2 58 17 154 3 154 8 9 10 16 18 154 22 37 6 13 35 16 18 57 7 88 6 38 6 15 70 4 5 77 3 78 8 79 6 81 14 84 16 17 85 1 161 11 12 13 25 162 11 165 1 183 6 39 6 17 50 7 117 24 118 1 24 239 7 4 4 52 4 62 13 81 3 113 20 25 114 1 2 170 21 4 29 240 14 4 33 240 18 4 40 247 21 4 41 247 25 4 44 250 22 251 8 40 6 19 138 21 22 41 6 22 187 1 2 6 194 5 42 6 24 46 20 194 9 194 15 42 a 46 23 Page 30 221 24 42 c 48 6 43 7 3 103 1 207 4 90 115 23 137 4 6 91 138 16 207 6 9 210 8 973 596-4731 3 6 212 16 44 7 5 58 23 226 18 226 19 45 85 24 46 58 16 59 1 48 132 11 12 49 59 16 17 19 133 14 15 499 232 12 233 1 2 5 5 63 22 64 18 65 15 232 6 50 27 20 22 54 54 20 21 55 1 2 55 35 21 54 21 55 6 555 4 12 57 235 7 9 58 62 3 6 60 89 8 123 15 603 232 12 17 17 232 23 24 233 3 5 607 232 18 234 9 62 57 5 11 12 63 88 6 194 20 7 7 1 15 8 9 46 21 50 9 64 3 120 4 5 70 6 16 72 72 5 77 67 20 23 68 20 8 8 58 17 21 155 6 88 114 1 2 6 9 9 42 5 59 17 135 17 9 11 19 2 3 21 16 153 9 219 17 ACLU-RDI 6806 p 285 This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu