IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION JOINT HEARINGS BEFORE THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION AND THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN ONE HUNDREDTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION 100-7 Part I JULY 3 9 AND 10 1987 TESTIMONY 0F OLIVER L NORTH Questioning by Counsela Printed for the use of the Select Committees on the Iran-Contra Investigation 53% 0 8 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 75 544 WASHINGTON 2 1988 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents US Government Printing Of ce Washington DC $1402 LOU move the second channel here to the United States for a secret meetin It is just a general lack of cooperation Mr name From whom Mr NORTH From within the bureaucracy Mr Well these are suspicions havmg to do General Secord aren t they Mr NORTH No I am talkin about the saying suspicions as to why the lack of cooperation is ere OK I see I am not certain at all that this refers to suspicions about Gener- a1 Secord I am saying our suspicions as to why gople aren coop- erating in etting various things done along the e I think tie wa that perhaps it looks is though I was of General Seco That is not the intent nor do I think it was Ad- miral Poindexter s I mean after all the line above Bill agrees Secord is a patn- ot Thats what I was saying this man is a patnot has g1ven extraordinary time and energy to supporting our foreign pohcy to carrying out this initiative and we can t get people to cooperate on diddl Mry Nans Did there ever come a time when you entertained sus icing about the way in which money was bemg used by Gener- al 0 Mr NORTH I don t I know certainly that these hearings have generated questions and sus icions and things hke that I don recall a speci c time before t that that was a that I perceived a problem with that necessarily Mr Nans Did you ever perceive a problem or hear about a problem having to do with the pricing of arms to the Contras Mr NORTH For the Contgaxgalal now get adha big problem with ricin the Ma shi ment was amans MngNans lustpto make it clear I am asking you about did you ever hear adverse reports or did you ever entertain sus mom that you weren t getting the straight facts from General ord about the way he was handling the pricing of arms to the Contras Mr NORTH No I did hear a report from someone in Central America that General Secord was overcharging on the arms that he delivered to the Resistance and I sought at that pomt in time a price list from him and compared those prices to those that others had gotten Some were higher some were lower and I beheveat the time I talked to Adolfo Calero about it who was at that pomt in time the principal recipient of the arms from General Secord I don t recall any other other than what on have was a very competitive environment down there Once US Government withdrew in 1984 from directly supporting the Resistance you ended up with a lot of folks out there running a very cut-throat business There were two particular transactions or dealers that raised great concerns with Director Casey One Of them was a transaction of some $5 to $6 million dollars from a broker who he was con- cerned had also been involved in reverse technology transferio the Eastern Bloc and he told me to do everything possible to discour- age further purchases The other one was a so-called warehouse ration that was being run in a Central American country that Agency and D1- LHI rector Casey in particular was very concerned about the source Of their moneys and the fact that this enormous warehouse of several millions of dollars worth of ordnance had been stocked up in that Central American country and the potential adverse consequences and at one point he apprised me that he was concerned that that Central American country might have diverted ESF moneys United States economic support funds to the military to purchase the arms that went in that warehouse And so he told me that there shouldn t be any further transac- tions with that broker until such time as he resolved or they were able to resolve where those came from I then talked to Mr Calero and I talked to General Secord that they should avoid those transactions My sense is that as a consequence of the advice I got from the Director to withdraw from dealing with those two dealers that a lot of people start putting out very bad word about General Secord And I think a lot Of that was brought up here to Washington I think it was made available to certain Members Of Congress and I think that is where a lot of the adverse publicity came from And the fact is I was told by Director Casey that there should be no further dealings with those two arms brokers and to my knowl- edge General Secord never dealt with them If he had up till that point he certainly didn t do it again But that a lot Of the very negative communications that came out about General Secord came out as a consequence of those two guys being cut out of the picture as it were in terms of supporting the Resistance Mr NIELDs Colonel North did you have any interest personal interest I am talking about now in any of the moneys that owed from the arms sales to Iran or that were kept in Swiss accounts under General Secord's control Mr NORTH Not one penny Mr There has been testimony as I am sure you are aware that a death bene t account was set up by Mr Hakim with the name Button for the bene t of your fam y in the event of your death Were you aware of any such account Mr NORTH No Totally unaware of it The rst I heard of it was through these hearings I had never heard of it before and it was a shock an absolute shock Counsel conferring with witness Mr NIELDs There is a testamentary document which has been introduced in evidence relating to a particular $2 million sub-ac- count set up also by Mr Hakim which provides that on his death General Secord can control the use Of the funds and in the event of his death you can control the use Of the funds and it also con- tains a provision that if everybody dies it will be distributed to their estates Were you aware of such a document Mr NORTH NO I never heard of it until these hearings started I still don t believe it I was shocked and I have absolutely no idea where that all came from whatsoever never heard of it before Mr was And you never heard of the idea either I take it 140 Mr NORTH No ever I do want to make one point clear I did at one int express concern after I would guess in February March Ap somewhere after I had met Mr Hakim became aware what his role was in the nancial network that had been established I did at some point express concern to General Secord Suppose both of you guys go down on the same airplane itting back and forth to Euro or wherever you are going what mpens then I was told Don t worry about it arrangements be made so that these operations can continue but nobody ever told me that a single penny was set aside for purposes for my bene t what- soever ever and I never heard 0 Buttons or Belly Buttons until these hearings began Mr Nmms I would like to separate out then the two issues raised by this will or this testamentary document You are indicat- ing that the portion of it that rovides for the moneys being dis- tributed to the estates of the in 'viduals is a foreign notion to you Mr SULLIVAN Excuse me Mr Chairman could we please have a co of the document Nmms It is exhibit 169 Mr SULLIVAN I object to the term will Mr Chairman I be- lieve the term has been used 50 times in these hearings prior to today wT liIis is not a will and any lawyer in the room knows it is not a Mr NORTH This is the first time I have ever seen this document ever Mr Understand you have said that I just want to se - rate out the issues There is a part Of the document that provi for distribution to individuals estates in the event of death It is on the second page I take it your testimony is that that not only have you not seen the document but that concept is foreign to you You never heard of anything like it Mr NORTH I never heard of it before I don t know how much more clearly I can put it Counsel I never ever heard that proposal before that estion Mr are is a second part of the document that relates simply to control over the use of the funds and that is on the rst page of it the second paragraph And I take it that although you never saw the document the concept that you would control dispo- sition of the funds I don t mean in your personal capacity but in your governmental capacity in the event of the death of Hakim and Secord that is not foreign to you is it Mr NORTH Well never rofessed to have control over a single nny of this I elicited cooperation of General Secord To my owledge he cooperated in every case with the things that we asked him to do but I never once saw those words nor do I want to leave you with the im ression that this was what I had in mind when I said to them happens if both you guys drop dead I was more than willing to have anybody else they wanted so that we could continue the activities but I didn t necessarily wish to become the person who had to y back and forth to Swit- zerland I have never even been in a Swiss bank Mr NIELDB There has been testimony that several thousand dol- lars was spent on a fence a security system that was put in at your residence and that the moneys to pay for it came from Gener- Lad al Secord and my question to you is were you aware I take it there was a security system put in at your residence Mr NORTH There is a security system in at my residence It has since this April been sufficiently supplemented that it is now ex traordinary Mr NIELDS And I take it Counsel conferring with witness Mr Nans Were you aware that that security system was paid for by General Secord Mr NORTH I am going to waffle an answer I am going you would indulge me I will give you another one of my very straightforward but rather answers The issue of the securi system was rst broached immediately after a threat on my life Abu Nidal Abu Nidal is as I am sure you on the Intelligence Committees know the principal foremost assassin in the world today He is a brutal murderer When I was rst alerted to that threat by the Federal Bureau of Investigations in late April I was simply told that there was a threat that had been promulgated by Abu Bakar who is the press spokesman for the Fatah Revolutionary Council which is the name of the Abu Nidal group He targeted me for assassination We then made an effort over the course of several days to have the story killed and not run in the United States not me but the story killed and not run on the US media Nonetheless it ran and I believe the date was the 28th of April The initial assessment was that this was a response to the attack on Libya which we had run a preemptive counter-terrorist raid on Lib a on the 14th of April in which I had a small role to play chose to run the lm anyway The FBI was then contacted again and told asked what protec- tion can be offered The FBI correctly said We don t offer protec- tion I then sought other types of protection I went to my superiors and said What can be done Contrary to what was said some days ago this lieutenant colonel was not offered at that time any grotection by the Government of the United States Senator udman I asked for it and I was told that the only thing that I could do is to immediately PCS permanent change of station you and I as Marines know well what that means and jerked out of our home and sent to Camp Lejune In that I was preparing at the time to go to Tehran and we didn t want to tell the whole world that that was deemed not to be an appropriate thing to do The next thing that we looked to try tried to do was to nd a secure telephone to put in my home to justify the installation of a US Government security system That too was impossible or not feasible or couldn t be done The next thing list of who installs these things for the US Government maybe I can get a better price by calling them I believe it was someone in the Secret Service gave me a list of three or four of these companies that do that kind of installation I called two or three of them It is now late April early May it is within days of this threat and I called and I asked can you come out and do a survey and give me an estimate and in each case I think it was two or three of them and I was at that point relative- ly busy I was told It would be several weeks before we can come out and do an estimate and a survey and it will be several more weeks or months before we can complete the installation because after all summertime is our busy time At some point along in there either General Secord raised with me or I raised with him this threat and I told him I couldn t get US Government protection I couldn t nd a contractor to come out and do it myself and he said Don t worry about that I have got a good friend or an associa don t remember the words - who is an expert This guy has a company that does these things And he shortly thereafter I believe it was around the 5th of May introduced me to Mr Glenn Robinette He was introduced to me as a man who one had been a former CIA or perhaps I under- stood at the time FBI I don t remember technical expert a man who owned a security company and a man who could immediately go out and do a survey and an estimate He did Over the course of the next few days he went out to my home I called my wife or told my wife whatever that he would be out and went through the situation And he came up with an esti- mate of $8 500 max as I recall it was $8 000 to $8 500 and he could furthermore immediately install the system Now I want you to know that I would be more than willing and if an body else is watching overseas and I am sure they are I will be glad to meet Abu Nidal on equal terms anywhere in the world There is an even deal for him But I am not willing to have my wife and my four children meet Abu Nidal or his organization on his terms And I want you to know what was going through my mind I was about to leave for Tehran I had already been told by Director Casey that I should be prepared to take my own life I had already been told that the Government of the United States on an earlier proposal for a trip might even disavow the fact that I had gone on the trip on an earlier proposal and we can come back to that at some time if you like And so having been having asked for some of US Govern- ment protection for my wife and children and aving been denied that and perha s for fully legitimate reasons and if there is a law that prevents protection of American Government employees and their families from people like Abu Nidal then gentlemen please x it because this kid won t be around much longer as I am sure you know but there will be others if they take activist steps to address the roblem of terrorism who will be threatened And I would to just if I may just read to you a little bit about Mr Abu Nidal just so you know my mental state at the time Abu Nidal the radical Palestinian guerrilla leader linked to last Friday s attacks in Rome and Vienna that was the so-called Christmas Massacre in which 19 people died and 200 were wound- ed - is the world s most wanted terrorist That is the Christian Science Monitor When you look at his whole career Abu Nidal makes the infa- mous terrorist Carlos look like a Boy Scout Abu Nidal himself quoted in Der Spiegel Between America and us there exists a war to the death In the coming months and years Americans will be thinking about us For sheer vicious- ness Abu Nidal has few rivals in the underworld of terrorism Newsweek Our own State Department and we have copies of these that we can make available for insertion in the record but the State De- partment summary on Abu Nidal not exactly an overstatement notes that his followers who number an estimated 500 have killed as many as 181 persons and wounded more than 200 in 2 years Abu Nidal does not deny these things We also have an exhibit that we can provide for you that shows what Abu Nidal did in the Christmas Massacres One of the people killed in the Christmas Massacre and I do not wish to overdramatize this but the Abu Nidal terrorists in Rome who blasted the 11 year old American Na tasha Simpson to her knees deliberately zeroed in and red an extra burst at her head just in case Gentlemen I have an 11-year-old daughter not perhaps a whole lot different than Natasha Simpson And so when Mr Robinette told me on or about the 10th of May that he could immediatel in- stall a security system I said please try to keep it to the 8 to 8 500 I am after all a Marine lieutenant colonel and I live on my salary and he installed that system Now let me go to your next uestion because I know it is coming and it deserves an answer never got a bill and it is after Mr NIELDB Wait before you go to the next Mr NORTH It is after all the answer to your question It is the answer to your question You asked me where it came from and I am trying to tell you Mr NIELDS I am going to ask you that question but Mr NORTH You have already asked me the question You asked me whether or not the money came from General Secord I am get- ting there Mr NIELDS All right OK Mr Noam OK When that system was installed it was practically it was total- ly complete It allowed for example that when my wife would trig- ger an alarm an alarm would ring in the central station and the Fairfax Police would immediately be notified and that arrange- ment was worked out this wasn t surreptitious The Fairfax Police came out you pays your taxes in Fairfax County but you gets your money s worth And by golly they came out and they photographed the house and they did the normal pre- caution things to respond to the kind of terrorist alert that they had been riefed on by the FBI And that is the best that the could do and it was at that point with that security system ins ed it was adequate that instantly they would respond to one of those emergency alarms And Mr Ro- binette provided it Now I then went on the trip to Tehran I came back I never got a bill I didn t ask for a bill and I never received one I never asked where is the bill until well after it was too late and I will cover that When I didn t get a bill I basically understood what had hap- pened and I don t know exactly how it worked out but I believe that an accommodation was worked between Mr Robinette and General Secord to make a gift out of that security system that I did not pay for When I came toothe end of my tenure at the NSC it was to say the least a busy time There were other things to be done besides shredding documents when I left There was a lot of work to be done and one of the things that I did was to sit and contemplate the prevmus 5% years of my work and I am proud of that work I behave that we accomplished a lot But there was one thing that just didn t look right and that was that for the rst time in my life I had accepted something that I had not paid for and even though I honestly believe that the Government of the United States should have paid for it should have put it in I then picked upI that a dfasked for a bill go a act I got two of them I didn t ask that the be back-dated butoafter all Mr Robinette is an old hand in the Alright The bills came with the old original dates and I think thEi-ledwials anotheIr biili with a later date on it en as to you esterday I was going to tell ou the truth the good thebad andV the ugly this is the truth I did prob ably the grossest misjudgment that I have made in my life I then tried to paper over that whole thing by sending two phony docu- menitzs back to Mr Robinette It was not an exercise in good judg- men I don t believe I have any particular monopol on bad u ent I think it was a gross error in judgment for this put my home address up on the screen for the whole world to see when I have got 20 security agents guarding my wife my children and me right now I would also like to point out that it is not quite as bad as origi- nally seemed 'I'his year these things kind of come in Aprils I guess but this April the FBI called again This April the FBI called and told me that there was another threat on my life The big difference was this_ year I was back with a band of brothers thatohas a long reputation for taking care of its own And the US Marine Corps and the aval Intelligence Naval Investigative Serv- ice of Naval Intelligence got together and immediately put securi- ty on me and my home where my wife and children are protected I can tell you how grateful I am for that The security system that was metalled by Mr Robinette with General Secord s money or the Enterprise money or Mr Hakim s money or I don t know whose money was put in and supplemented enormously by the folks some of which are sitting in this room right now some of whom are at my home right now some of whom drive me around ltlaltgn armored motorcade that makes it look like a European poten- But the fact is I am grateful for that assistance beyond measure because when you think about what could happen when somebody like that is out to kill you and doesn t care if he takes out your children With you you run out of options in a big hurry I ran out fi pttii$ th Go vemment Of the United States should have stepped up to it and didn't Whether it is because of laws or regula- tions I don t know I admit to making a serious serious judgment error in what I then did to paper it over and I am willing to sit here and admit to that But I am also suggesting to you gentlemen that if it was General Secord who paid the bill whatever it was I thought it was $8 000 didn t learn until the hearin started it was more I also suggest to ou that if it was General rd rst of all thank on General ord and second of all you guys ought to write hii la check because the Government should have done it to begin wi Thank you sir Mr NIELDs Thank you Colonel North I need to ask you one other question on this subject Mr NORTH I will make my second answer shorter Mr NIELDS The documents which I believe you had reference to that you wrote and back-dated are exhibit 172 and exhibit 173 Mr NORTH Yes Mr NIELDs Before I get to the document who was it that you made the request for security to and who turned on down Mr NORTH Well I went to rst of all I as ed the FBI what they could do about it and the FBI told me and I have since checked and I was since told this again this April when they called about a threat this spring that the FBI is not in the business of providing protection And they indeed are not I am not necessarily by the way saying that I think they should have because it is clearly not within their jurisdiction you whether you change that jurisdiction I suppose But I then asked if there was anything that could be done at the White House Mr Who was it that ou asked at the White House Mr NORTH I asked A Poindexter and I was referred to Mr McDaniel I was then it was then suggested that there is only two things that can be done you can either get a secure phone we can nd a secure telephone and put it in your home and use that to 'ustify a installation Of the security system ell for whatever reason no secure telephone could be found And I am not it may well be the case I don know I was also told that the other alternative was immediate PCS to Camp Lejeune or another military installation which did not seem entirely practical given that I was getting ready to go to Tehran Thus there were no answers Mr Nmms That was Admiral Poindexter or Mr McDaniel who told you that you could be transferred to Camp Lejeune Mr NORTH I don t recall whether which one it was I know that that issue came up and was dismissed Mr Nans OK Taming now to exhibits 172 and 1'73 I take it what you are saiilgg is that they were both typed on the same day NORTH No Actually I think they were typed on two differ- ent days or maybe even 3 different days but they are both phony documents I have admitted to that I am here to tell you the truth even when it hurts They are phony Mr Nmms The second one exhibit 1'73 there are three letters from the typewriter that don t type correctly How was that ar- ranged Mr NORTH It wasn t arranged That is the way the wheel on the thing was when I typed it and the wheel was defective It was simply that way Mr Were the two letters typed on the same typewriter Mr NORTH No Mr NIELDS Were they typed in the same place Mr NORTH No Actually one letter I think was typed on one typewriter that was similar to the other one I couldn t nd a decent ball or the wheel thing that worked right and that was the only one that was there And I dummied up even the explanation on the bottom of it Mr When you say you dummied up the explanation Mr NORTH That is the way it was Mr So you didn t drop the ball Mr NORTH No I mean after all how could you you know thinking that you were this was not typed at the White House It was typed after I left Incidentally no one else knew about this besides me This was my own little stupidity all on my own Mr Nmms What was the purpose of writing an explanation at the bottom of exhibit 173 Mr NORTH Here the only letter that you have sent with a ball that doesn t work it was a demonstrator model in a store that I typed it on and you have got to provide some kind of an explana- tion as to why supposedly the White House typewriter doesn t write so I explained it on the bottom by saying I dropped the ball the ball bemg the explanation for the defective type Mr NIELDS Why did you dummy up the explanation Mr NORTH Well theoretically I mean Mr SULLIVAN I object Mr Chairman Colonel North has frankly admitted what he did here I must believe that the U S Congress has better things to do than focus on two phony letters after the witness has admitted that they are phony Could we please move on to another subject Chairman INOUYE We will proceed in the fashion we wish to Mr Nields Mr NORTH The fact is this letter was typed on a machine but dated as though I were still at the White House Right 1 October '86 I was still at the White House And the machine didn't work well dldn t write right Somebody had screwed up the wheel on this demonstrator and thus I had to explain why a White House typewriter where they usually work pretty well didn t work well And so I put that note at the bottom It was simply an explanation for why the typewriter didn t work as I hoped it to It is not more sinister than it appears Mr There has been testimony about use of traveler s checks I would like to give you an Opportunity to answer or ex- plain that testimony I take it you have it in mind Mr NORTH I do have it in mind counsel and I appreciate the opportunity Again you will have to indulge me a bit LOU When I began the covert operation in 1986 excuse me 1984 in support of the Resistance we had enormous problems trying to solve near time real time what I call operational problems The 9 31 result of that was that I talked to Director Casey about the dif- ties He had suggested establishing an operational account and I did so There were two sources of moneys for that operational account One was traveler's checks from Adolfo Calero and the other one was cash eventually from General Secord My recollection is that the very rst traveler's checks came either very late 84 or certainly early 1985 and that the sum total o otraveler s checks was probably in excess of $100 000 or there- a uts I also had cash which I estimate today to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 to 75 thousand dollars in cash so we are talk- ing about an operational account that went from somewhere around 150 to 175 thousand dollars At various points in time there would be considerable sums in it and at various points in time there would be none in it My recollection is that I got the traveler s checks in packages of loss than $10 000 I understand that others have remembered elsewise but that is how I remember it Those funds were used to support the operations that we were conducting They were used to support the covert operation in Nicaragua and then eventually were used to support other activi- ties as well The fact that I had those funds available was known to Mr McFarlane to Admiral Poindexter to Director Casey and eventu- ally to Admiral Art Moreau over at the Pentagon It was also game to be known to others some of whom you have had testify ere The funds were used initially only to support the Nicaragua pro- gram but eventually it was broadened to include other activities as well Let me give you some examples In the Nicaragua program Operational support was provided to a whole host of Nicaraguan Resistance leaders either directly by me from the fund or through couriers that I used to carry it out Other Resistance activities inside Nicaragua were supported of a less military nature in some cases Europeans who helped us with both the public affairs aspect and the acquisition of other arms through a separate channel outside that you have already heard about from General Secord or General Singlaub were paid for out of this account Money was mailed from this account to addresses in Caracas San Jose Tegucigalpa and San Salvador among other places to support activities inside Managua The Indian movement the Atlantic Coast Indian movement was supported from this account and meetings with the Atlantic Coast Indians both the Misurasata and the Miskito movement itself were supported from this account And eventually the fund was used to support other activities such as a DEA hostage recovery activity and the assistance Of an- other European who we have agreed not to talk about What is important that ou realize is that meticulous records were kept on all of this I ept a detailed account of every single penny that came into that account and that le that account All of the transa ons were recorded on a ledger that Director Case gave me for that purpose Every time I got a group of traveler checks in I would record them and I would record them when they went out even going so far as to record the traveler s checks numbers themselves The ledger for this operational account was given to me by Direc- tor Casey and when he told me to do so I destroyed it because it had within it the details of every single person who had been sup- ported by this fund the addresses their names and placed them at extraordinary risk Every transaction that you showed on that chart that you had up on the wall or the screen or wherever it was hard to tell when you see it on video tape but when you had it up there you showed a grou of traveler s checks With my name on it Every single one of ose traveler s checks which bore my name were used by me to defra an actual operational expense as it happened I would cash a chec for example at Miami Airport and hand the money to a Resistance person who I met with there or I ew myself off to some place because we were trying to avoid the use of appropriated funds we used this account to live within Boland and to hide the fact that NSC travel was being conducted Unlike the CIA the NSC travel voucher system doesn t have a covert cover We had one dickens of a time trying to grotect my travel and as you undoubtedly know gentlemen I ma an enor- mous amount of travel The schedule was brutal much of it was paid for out of that operational account There were times when that account was down to zero No mone in it I didn t have any traveler s checks and I had handed out the cash not to myself but to others Under those circum- stances I would use my own money Lt Col Oliver North's pay- check money his own money that he had earned and I would use it for an operational expense I would therefore make a notation in the 1 er Spent $250 on going to Atlanta to meet with some- body an the next time I got cash or traveler's checks I would use those checks to reimburse myself every single penny On the checks that you saw that came to me was used to pairv an operation- al expense on the scene or to reimburse myself never took a penny that didn t belon to me Every single one of ose checks and I would also point out to you counsel that you don t have them all because by my own rec- ognition and memory there were checks used in 1986 and the ones that you depicted earlier were only 1985 And I used those travel- er s checks right up until shortly before I was red but only for the purposes that you saw And I realize that this hearing is a difficult thing Believe me gentlemen it is not as dif cult for you as it is for a guy that has got to come up here and tell the truth and that is what I am trying to do I want to make it very clear that when you put up things like Parklane Hosiery and you all snicker at it and you know that I have got a beautiful secretary and the good Lord gave her the gift of beauty and that people snicker that Ollie North might have been doing a little hanky-panky with his secretary Ollie North has been loyal to his wife since the day he married her and the fact is I went to my best friend and I asked her Did I ever go to Parklane Hosiery And you know what she told me Of course you did you old buffoon you went there to buy leotards for our two little girls And the reason I wrote the check Park- lane Hosiery just like the checks at Giant is because I was owed my money for what I had spent in pursuing that covert operation You gentlemen may not agree that we should have been pursu- ing covert operations at the NSC but we were We had an oper- ational account and we used the money for legitimate purposes within that covert operation Does that answer your question sir Mr Nmms Yes Mr NORTH Thank you Mr NIELDs I have a couple more on that subject When was the ledger destroyed Mr NORTH My recollection is that the ledger and I am antici- ting your question I have tried as best I can to reconstruct not only that but when a lot of the more intensi ed destruction began My sense is that it was probably destroyed along about the 4th or 5th of November and I say probably because the initial discussions I had with Director Casey about this operation coming unraveled began right after the Hasenfus shoot-down which was early Octo- ber I think October and then the discus- sions that he had shortly thereafter with Mr Furmark who told him that Oh by the way a lot of people happen to know that Ollie North has been using money from the Iranian arms transac- tions to support the Contras or words to that effect I then went on a very intensive period of travel and I must tell you that we intensi ed our efforts considerably knowing that this operation was coming apart We made an extraordinary effort to get the second channel going to open it up and to get as many Americans out as we possibly could before it all came down I believe that it was right after I returned from one of my early November trips I had a meeting with Director Casey Director Casey said Look this revelation that is either occurring or about to occur is the end At that point in time he also told me You ought to go out and get a lawyer Now from one of the guys who is one of the best lawyers in the world by my book he used to remind me a lot not to say bad things about la ers I have been reminded about that since Di- rector Casey tol me to get a lawyer because there was probably going to be a civil suit against me by associates of Mr Furmark to recover their money And so in that whole process somewhere between what I would judge to be the 13th of October and the 4th of November he told me speci cally Get rid of things get rid of that book because that book has in it the names of everybody the addresses of everybody Just get rid of it and clean things up And I did so Mr Nans Where did the money come from Mr Noa'rI-I The two sources that I remember very vividly were Mr Calero by traveler s checks sometimes given by him to me di- rectly or couriered to me and then also cash from General Secord Mr NIELDs Did you ever you have indicated that on occasion you advanced your own money and reimbursed yourself out of this fund Were there occasions when it was the other way around I 3Ifrlon t understand Isms ou borrowed from the fund for and then reimbursed personal purposes Mr NORTH Never Mr Nans Did-you ever permit Fawn Hall to do that Mr NORTH I dld I as I recall it was a very late probably a Fnday or Saturday mght and I had told her that she could take the weekend off and she didn t have any money and she was driv- mg to the beach or somewhere And I as I recall gave her two or three checks made the appropriate notation in the ledger and told her that I had to have the money back as soon as she could cash a check and she dld and I put the money back in the account To my recollection that 1s the only time I ever advanced anybody any- thing out of the account I never advanced myself out of there Mr NIELDS There has been testimony about efforts to route money to you through your wife out of the Swiss bank accounts I would like to give you an opportunity to respond to those that tes- timony on that subject if you wish Mr Noam Iowould be glad to Again if you will allow me to go backom time a httle bit in February of 1986 we had the rst direct the Iranians in 5-plus years between U S Govern- ment of cials and the Iranians other than the discussions that were gomg on 1n Europe over settlement of accounts In those meetings 1n the latter days of February it was decided that there would be two trips to Tehran that I would go on an ad- vanceotnp w1th General Secord the purpose of which would be to estabhsh an agenda for a higher-level trip to be taken by a senior U S of c1al and that trip was planned to take place in April My advance trip was to have taken place in March Because the U S Government had been unable to provide a translator for that session Mr Hakim came to that session and acted as translator and that was to my recollection the very rst actually met with Mr Hakim and I have no recall to the contrary Mr Hakim thought that this idea of an advance trip was lunacy ggan _he Esta I'I'llfh CImelgleSt poislsible terms that this was not a thing 0 cerwowas 'th Wh wit me at that meeting en ussion transpired it was actual inted ou you could never be heard from on this trip agaiinpfi'he known to Mr Hakim very clearly because he is after all an Irani- an He ed the revolution that we now seek to get along with The CIA of cer thought that the trip was very high risk When I later talked to Dn'ector Casey and this was within days of ns whole event Director Casey raised another issue and that was first of all the trip because it is so black this advance trip is so hidden we are gomg to use non U S Government assets through- out European or Middle Eastern airlines no U S air registration air ights You might never be heard from again The Government might disavow the entire thing And furthermore I Bill Casey am not going to let you go unless you are prepared to deal with the issue of torture We knew by then that Bill Buckley a man who I knew was probably dead and that he had been tortured We knew that he had given as much as a 400-page confession under torture that we were making every effort to recover And Director Casey told me that he would not concur in my going on the advance trip unless I took with me the means by which I could take own life I did not tell my wife and children that and they may hearing it for the rst time right now In the course of that discussion Mr Hakim said to me If you don t come back I will do something for your family He did not say we that I recall he said Now by that point in time I had come to know that Mr Hakim was a wealthy man in his own right I was grateful for the assist- ance that he had been providing in translating over several very difficult days of discussions with the Iranians And several days thereafter when he suggested that my wife meet with his lawyer in Philadelphia I agreed that my wife should do so The purpose as I understood it of that meeting was that my wife would be in touch with the person who would if I didn t return do something for my family My wife went to the meeting in Philadelphia several days there- after and you have notations in the notebooks that I surrendered to you about what happened She went A very brief meeting There was no money mentioned no account mentioned no amount mentioned no will mentioned no arrangement The meeting fo cused on how many children I had their ages and a general de- scription of my family a brief meeting in the of ces as I remem- llaer of Touche Ross a respectable rm in Philadelphia with a awyer I then went and thank God returned safely from Iran After that trip there was one more call to my wife from the lawyer on or about the lat of June almost immediately after my return from Tehran The lawyer called again and asked for the name of an adult executor for our family in the event I suppose that neither my wife nor I were around I told my wife Do not call him back It is unnecessary She never did She never heard from him again and she has never made contact with him again No money was ever transferred to my possession control ac- count or that of my wife or that of my children I never ever heard about Bellybuttons until these hearings began Does that answer your question counsel Mr Yes And I take it that in answering the question you have been telling us what happened at certain meetings that I take it were attended only by your wife and I take it you are testi- fying to what you have been told by her Counsel conferring with witness Mr Noam On advice of counsel I have not revealed any of our I have not revealed any of our con dential marital communi I have given you a surmise based on what I know the facts to Mr SULLIVAN In other words counsel don t call his wife up here Mr NIELDS No that wasn t the question at all The question was simply what the source of the information was and I take 1t It Is your wife Counsel conferring with witness Mr NORTH Counsel I gave you a long story and the sources are multiple for that story but accurate Mr Well other than your wife what other sources Counsel conferring with witness Mr NORTH Some of the information may be priv eged or a work product of my attorney Mr SULLIVAN In other words we have done a little of our own investigation regarding excuse me Mr Chairman a little of our own investigation regarding these allegations and have amassed some evidence and have concluded that they are absolume base- less From that the information Colonel North has been able to draw certain conclusions If you have any proof to the contrary why don t you present It Mr NIELDs So what he's testi ng to is based on what he has been told by his wife and his attorneys Mr SULLIVAN Not necessarily so There are other factors as well Mr UK What else Mr NORTH I am just telling you all that I know about the event No money ever was received Counsel conferring with witness Mr NORTH I obviously had a conversation with Mr Hakim that initiated this entire business back in February or early March Mr Can you give the committee any information that would shed light on why Mr Zucker was meeting with a lawyer in Switzerland in October of 1986 seeking to nd a way of routing a substantial sum of money to you through your wife Mr NORTH NO I can give you absolutely no insight to that Mr SULLIVAN Objection to your question routing a substantial sum Of money There is no predicate to that Mr NORTH I cannot counsel And I think it is important for you to know that the very rst time I heard these things was as a con- sequence of these hearings and I was shocked I never ever got a penny from those accounts The only thing that it can be said that I ever received as a conse- quence of what I did in the course of these activities or as a result of perhaps one of those accounts is the security which is at my home and I still to this day don t know exactly who paid for it Mr NIELDS Mr Chairman I have no further questions for the morning Chairman INOUYE The joint panel will stand in recess until 2 00 Whereupon at 12 10 the Select Committees recessed to re- convene at 2 00 this same day The Select Committees met pursuant to recess at 2 00 in room 325 Russell Senate Of ce Building Hon Daniel K Inouye chairman of the Senate Select Committee and Hon Lee H Hamil- ton chairman of the House Select Committee presiding AFTERNOON SESION Chairman INOUYE The hearing will please come to order Mr Nields Mr Nans Thank you Mr Chairman Colonel North you testi ed yesterday concerning approval that you received for the plan to use the proceeds of arms sales to Iran for the Contras and you testi ed about Admiral Poindexter and the President Who else if anyone and I don t mean to imply anything in the question but leaving those two people aside who else in the Gov- ernment was aware of either the plan or the fact of using proceeds of arms sales to Iran for the Contras Mr NORTH Well if I may clarify what I testi ed to yesterday is my assumption that the President knew and then I subsequently testi ed that I was told he did not know I know that Admiral Poindexter knew I know that Mr McFar- lane knew at a point in time when he was no longer in the Govern- ment and Director Casey knew Aside from that I can t speak with certainty as to who else inside the Government knew for sure although there were certain- ly a number of people who by the time November of 86 came along certainly had great suspicions or belief that it was happening But the only ones that I know for sure who I confirmed it with were those three Mr NInLns OK may I would like to take them and then ask you some_ questions about some others When did Mr McFarlane to your knowledge rst learn that the from the arms sales to Iran had been used for the Con- Mr NORTH My recollection is that I rst con rmed it with him during the May trip to Tehran and it was probably on the return leg from that either on board the aircraft or as we were changing planes whatever we returned in an aircraft to Israel and boarded another aircraft and flew back to the United States so it waslisioinewhere in that timeframe that I can recall speci cally tell mg Mr Do you have any reason to believe he was aware of it earlier Mr NORTH He may have been I have seen some of my own notes that would lead me to believe I had talked to him about it but I don t recall the events I do speci cally recall however talking to him about it at the time of our return Mr When did Director Casey rst learn of it Mr NORTH Actually my recollection is Director Casey learned about it before the fact Since I am confessing to things I may have raised it with him before I raised it with Admiral Poindexter prob- ably when I returned from the February from the January discus- sions This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu