Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665566 Date I I TO ALEC NatSeCAct FROM SUBJECT EYES ONLY - DETAILS OF ENOVEMBER 2002 SECOND SESSION WITH AL-RAHIM - - - - - - - - - - - - - BODY NatSecAct NatSecAct bxs ClAAct Egg NatSecAct NatSeCAct 301046Z NOV 02 11344 mm 3010392 Nov 02 STAFF bxg NatSecAct 11344 TO IMMEDIATE ALEC INFO DIRECTOR FOR NatSecAct NatSecAct NatSecAct SUBJECT EYES ONLY - DETAILS OFENOVEMBER 2002 SECOND INTERROGATION SESSION WITH- AL-NASHIRI REF NatSeCAct TEXT COMBINE COMPLETE 1 ACTION REQUIRED NONE FYI ONLY DEFER TO HEADQUARTERS FOR DISSEMINATION OF ALL 0R PART OF THE BELOW IN INTEL FORMAT Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 A roved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 NatSecAct pp a 2 DAY 12 OF AGGRESSIVE INTERROGATION PHASE OF SENIOR OPERATIVE AKA MULLAH SUBJECT SUBJECT UNDERWENT TWO SEPARATE INTERROGATION SESSIONS THE FIRST SESSION LASTED FROM 1107 - 1252 HOURS LOCAL A DETAILED READOUT OF THIS SESSION WAS PROVIDED IN REF A THE SECOND SESSION LASTED FROM 1655 1850 HOURS AND WITH SUBJECT SITTING ON THE WATER BOARD INTERROGATORS AGAIN REVIEWED WITH SUBJECT WHAT HE KNEW REGARDING REF PARA TWO OPERATIONS AGAINST U S INTERESTS IN SAUDI ARABIA THEY ALSO COVERED WHAT OTHER DETAINEES HAD SAID ABOUT ULTIMATELY INTERROGATORS APPLIED ONE WATER BOARD TREATMENT TO SUBJECT DURING THIS INTERROGATION SESSION NatSeOAct NatSecAct 3 THE SECOND INTERROGATION SESSION ON CINOVEMBER 2002 BEGAN I AT 1655 HOURS WHEN SECURITY TEAM INTERROGATORS bxs LINGUIST ENTERED THE CELL WHERE-SUBJECT WAS SEATED HOODED ON THE FLOOR SUBJECT WAS MADE To SIT ON THE WATER TABLE HIS HOOD WAS REMOVED AND THE INTERROGATION BEGAN INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THAT THEY WERE HERE TO TALK NatSecAct 4 INTERROGATORS ADVISED SUBJECT THAT HE WAS JUST SHADOWBOXING WITH SUBJECT CLAIMED THAT HE COULD NOT RECALL ANY OTHER PROJECT HE HAD ADOPTED OR WORKED WITH AND STATED THAT HE WAS TRYING TO RECALL ALL THE LITTLE THINGS HE COULD TO BE ABLE TO TELL INTERROGATORS HE REITERATED HIS CLAIM NOT TO BE -INVOLVED IN ANY OPERATION SAVE THAT OF THE HORMUZ AND HIS OWN PORT RASHID PLAN SUBJECT BEGAN TO BABBLE ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL HE THOUGHT mm HE HAD REPORTED DURING THE MORNING SESSION INTERROGATOR TOLD SUBJECT THAT HE WAS RUNNING OUT OF TIME AND ASKED WHY SUBJECT Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 WAS NOT TELLING THEM WHAT THEY WANTED TO KNOW SUBJECT RESPONDED NatSecAct NatSeCAct SUBJECT HAS PROVIDED NUMEROUS ACCOUNTS OF HOW INDIVIDUALS WHO APPEAR DURING INTERROGATIONS TO BE TYING SUBJECT TO PLANNING FOR FUTURE ATTACKS WERE SHUNTED OFF BY SUBJECT SO HE COULD FOCUS ON THE HORMUZ AND PORT RASHID OPERATIONS INTERROGATORS ASKED IF GIVEN THE ABOVE WHEN DETAINED THIS INDIVIDUAL WOULD THEN SAY THAT SUBJECT GAVE HIM THE MONEY FOR THIS OPERATION AND TOLD HIM TO DO SUBJECT SAID THAT THIS WAS POSSIBLE BECAUSE TO AVOID BEING FOUND GUILTY MEN WOULD OFTEN SAY THIS NatSeCAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 NatSecAct NatSecAct 7 SUBJECT WAS WARNED TO LISTEN CAREFULLY HE HAD ONLY TURNED ON THE TAP A TINY BIT AND ALLOWED A SMALL TRICKLE OF INFORMATION TO GET IT WAS THE RIGHT INFORMATION BUT NOT SUBJECT WAS TOLD HE COULD NOT SAVE HIMSELF FROM THIS PLACE UNTIL HE OPENED THE COMPLETELY TO LET THE INFORMATION FLOW SUBJECT WAS TOLD IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT HE HAD BETTER OPEN THAT VALVE WIDE OR HE WOULD FIND HIMSELF RETURNING TO THE SAME SITUATION HE WAS IN EARLIER I E APPLICATION OF THE WATER TREATMENT SUBJECT SNIVELLING PLEADED THAT HE WAS DOING HIS BEST TO HELP INTERROGATORS INTERROGATIONS AGAIN DEMANDED SUBJECT TELL THEM THE DETAILA NatSeCAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 NatSecAct NatSecAct INTERROGATORS REMINDED SUBJECT THAT THEY REALLY CARE WHETHER SUBJECT PROVIDED THE INFORMATION TO THEM OR TO A NICER PERSON UNDER NICER CONDITIONS ADDING THAT THE LAST TIME SUBJECT WAS SOMEWHAT HELPFUL HE WAS STRAPPED TO THE WATER TABLE NatSeCAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 NatSecAct TOLD SUBJECT THERE WAS ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH EVERYTHING HE WAS TELLING THEM IT WAS ALL THE SAME INFORMATION THEY HAD PROVIDED HIM PREVIOUSLY AND NOTED THAT HE HAD BETTER REALLY TURN ON THAT FAUCET INTERROGATORS DRIBBLED A BIT OF COLD WATER ON CHEST ASKING HIM OF HE COULD TELL HOW COLD THIS SUBJECT CRIED NO AND SAID HE KNOW WHAT INTERROGATORS KNEW BECAUSE HE KNOW SIC INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THE ABOVE SCENARIO WAS JUST THE TYPE OF INFORMATION THEY WANTED NOTING THAT THERE WERE MANY SUCH OPERATIONS WANT TO BE BOTHERED WITH a ec AND HIS OWN IDEAS REGARDING THE SHIP IN PORT NOTING THAT HE WAS TRYING VERY HARD TO TELL INTERROGATORS EVERYTHING HE KNEW NatSecAct NatSecAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 NatSecAct NatSeCAct 171 NTERROGATORS ASKED SUBJECT WHAT STORY HE CREATED FOR SUBJECT REMAINED MUTE INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THEY Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 NatSecAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 BELIEVED HE WAS PLAYING WITH THEM - TAKING THEIR WORDS AND FEEDING THEM BACK TO THEM INTERROGATORS DEMANDED THAT-SUBJECT TELL THEM HE TOLD SUBJECT STATED THAT HE COULD NOT RECALL THEN SAID THAT HE CONTINUE THIS LINE OF QUESTIONINC NatSeCAct 14 INTERROGATORS ABRUPTLY PLACED THE ROLLED SUPPORT AROUND NECK TELLING HIM THAT SUBJECT WAS ABUSING THEIR GOOD WILL AS SUBJECT WAS CONTINUING T0 FEED mm INFORMATION BACK To THEM INTERROGATORS DEMANDED SUBJECT GET BACK bxs LIE DOWN ON THE SUBJECT CRYING COMPLIED SLOWLY AS f INTERROGATORS STRAPPED SUBJECT TO THE WATER TABLE SUBJECT CRIED AND PLEADED THAT HE COULD NOT RECALL REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT HE COULD NOT RECALL SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT TELLING INTERROGATORS ABOUT CONVERSATIONS HE ALREADY HAD WOULD NOT GET SUBJECT IN TROUBLE BUT MAKING THINGS UP SURE WOULD SUBJECT DENIED THAT HE MADE THINGS INTERROGATORS REPLIED THAT HE JUST HAD SUBJECT SAID THAT ALL HE HAD TOLD INTERROGATORS WAS THE TRUTH AND THAT EVERYTHING HE WAS NOW TELLING INTERROGATORS WAS THE TRUTH INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THAT HE NatSecAgED THAT HE HAD A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT IF HE bm PROVIDED ONE PIECE OF USEFUL NEW INFORMATION HE COULD STOP THE b bxs To SUBJECT INTERROGATORS ASKED FOR DETAILS AND SUBJECT SAID THAT WAS IT SUBJECT SAID THAT IF OTHERS WERE INTERROGATED INTERROGATORS WOULD FIND THAT SUBJECT WAS TELLING THE SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT TO THE CONTRARY NatSeCAct INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT HE WAS NOT BEING HELPFUL THAT HE WAS TAKING THEIR WORDS AND SPITTING THEM BACK AND THAT SUBJECT WAS LEAVING THEM WITH NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER INTERROGATORS ADVISED Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 THAT THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE SUBJECT WHEN ALL HE WAS TELLING THEM WERE INTERROGATORS WERE GOING TO GET THE TRUTH OUT OF SUBJECT EVENTUALLY OVER PROTESTS THE WATER TECHNIQUE WAS APPLIED INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THEY WERE GOING TO DO THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL SUBJECT DECIDED TO BE SUBJECT MUMBLED SOMETHING UNINTELLIGIBLE I 15 SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT THE ONLY HELPFUL THING WOULD BE FOR HIM TO TELL INTERROGATORS SOMETHING USEFUL AND TRUTHFUL ABOUT ANYTHING HAPPENING IN THE GULF SUBJECT REPLIED THAT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE INTERROGATORS NEWS OF THE MEN INCLUDING WHERE THEY WERE WHAT THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT SUBJECT WAS ASKED TO CLARIFY WHICH MEN HE WAS TALKING ABOUT AND To THINK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE GOING DOWN THIS ROAD WITH INTERROGATORS SUBJECT SAID HE COULD TALK ABOUT THE NEWS OF THE MEN TELL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED SOME OF THE MEN WHO HE KNEW AND WHAT WAS TALKED ABOUT WITH THEM INTERROGATORS CHALLENGED SUBJECT NOTING THAT SUBJECT SAID HE HAD ALREADY TOLD US ABOUT THIS SUBJECT SAID THAT HE WOULD TALK ABOUT ALL THE MEN AND WOULD TELL INTERROGATORS EVERYTHING SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT INTERROGATORS KNEW HE WOULD EVENTUALLY TELL THEM WHAT THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THAT SUBJECT WOULD MAKE THINGS WORSE BY TELLING THEM THE SAME LIES REPEATEDLY SUBJECT SAID THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM HE WOULD TELL INTERROGATORS ABOUT THIS INFORMATION BUT SUBJECT KNOW ANYONE TELLING LIES ABOUT HIM SIC - AS TRANSLATED NatSecAct SUBJECT WAS REMINDED THAT INTERROGATORS WANTED TO KNOW WHAT SUBJECT KNEW -- SUBJECT AGAIN SAID THAT THERE WAS NOBODY DOING OPERATIONS INTERROGATORS SAID THEY CARE IF THE PEOPLE SUBJECT KNEW ABOUT WERE NOT IN WE WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THEM INTERROGATORS SAID SUBJECT KNEW ALL THE IN SAUDI SUBJECT SAID THAT INTERROGATORS WERE OFTEN CONNECTING REGULAR MUJAHIDIN WITH INTERROGATORS DEMANDED TO KNOW WHERE THESE PEOPLE WERE SUBJECT WAS Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 NatSecAct NatSeOAct 1 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 TOLD HE WAS GOING NOWHERE AND THAT THEY WOULD GET THE INFORMATION OUT OF HIM IF THEY HAD TO SPEND A MONTH DOING THEY REMINDED SUBJECT THAT THEY HAD ONLY DONE THIS THE WATER TABLE TREATMENT TWICE SUBJECT SAID THAT IF HE KNEW ANY SUCH INDIVIDUALS HE WOULD TELL INTERROGATORS ABOUT SUBJECT WAS TOLD THIS WAS NOT A GOOD ANSWER AND THAT HE HAD To BE HONEST SUBJECT AGAIN PROTESTED THAT HE WAS BEING HONEST WITH INTERROGATORS AND SAID THAT HE PUT HIS HAND IN THEIR HANDS 7 INTERROGATORS TOLD SUBJECT THAT EVERYTHING HE HAD TOLD THEM WERE STORIES THAT HE WAS FEEDING BACK TO THEM SUBJECT CONTINUED TO SHAKE AS HE TOLD INTERROGATORS THAT THIS WAS THE TRUTH AND THAT THIS WAS ALL HE WAS ABLE TO REMEMBER INTERROGATORS ASKED IF ANSWER WOULD STAY THE SAME IF HE WENT THROUGH THIS PROCEDURE 30 HE REPLIED THAT BY GOD HE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH NatSeCAct Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 NatSeoAct NatSecAct 19 INTERROGATORS AGAIN REITERATED THAT SUBJECT HAD To GIVE THEM NEW USEFUL HIS PROBLEM WAS THAT so MANY OTHERS HAD PROVIDED A SIMILAR STORY AGAINST HIM THAT HIS DIFFERENT STORY JUST HELIEVAELE SUBJECT WAS ASKED AGAIN TO PROVIDE ONE PIECE OF NEW AND USEFUL INFORMATION ON THE TABUK PLANNING -- ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE ELSE COULD VERIFY SUBJECT AGAIN REMAINED SILENT SUBJECT 1 WAS ASKED IF NOTED THAT THEY WOULD KEEP THEIR WORD SUBJECT Approved for Release 2018 10 03 C06665568 Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 HAD PROVIDED TINY PIECES OF NEW AND USEFUL INFORMATION SO THEY WERE GOING TO LET HIM OFF OF THE WATER BOARD THEY NOTED HOWEVER THAT THIS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION WAS NOT GOING TO BE SUFFICIENT TOMORROW REMINDING SUBJECT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN IF NECESSARY SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT TOMORROW INTERROGATORS WERE GOING TO HAVE ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS FOR HIM ON PEOPLE HE DEALT WITH AND THE IDEAS THAT THEY HAD SUBJECT NEEDED TO THINK HARD REGARDING HOW PEOPLE MOVED MONEY AND PEOPLE IN ADDITION TO OTHER PEOPLE SUBJECT HAS HELPED WITH DEVELOPING THEIR IDEAS INTO VIABLE OPERATIONS INTERROGATORS SAID THE FIRST THING THEY WERE GOING TO ASK SUBJECT ON THE NEXT DAY WAS WHAT HE HAD THOUGHT OF AND WARNED THAT IT HAD BETTER BE NEW USEFUL AND TRUE INFORMATION OR HE WOULD BE RIGHT BACK WHERE HE WAS NOW SUBJECT WAS UNSTRAPPED AND TOLD TO GET HE DID SO AND MOVED TO THE FAR CORNER AT INTERROGATOR DIRECTION THE WATER TABLE WAS WHEELED OUT OF THE CELL AND SUBJECT WAS LEFT ALONE ON THE CELL FLOOR AT 1850 HOURS NatSecAct END OF MESSAGE Approved for Release 2018 10 03 006665568 This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu