November 3 1988 Politburo Today is a historic day After the planned Politburo M S became more serious and clearly nervous he began to speak on the subject that he tried out during his main talk three days ago with Shevardnadze Yakovlev Falin and Dobrynin This was about of his trip to the UN in December M S Cdes Ryzhkov and Maslukov as well as other colleagues are asking me a question This question is also in the letters that I am receiving Very recently at a meeting with young Comsomols I once again came across this question they asked me why do we need such a big army People have been troubled by this question for a long time We approached this theme at the XIX party conference In the report in the theses and in the resolution we said that we need quality not quantity Now the moment has come when we need to make a major decision We are taking little steps like the agreement to liquidate medium and short-range missiles INF and some other things But that does not change the principal nature of the situation E A comes across this every day Today Shultz talked about it again The military doctrine we announced differs from what we are actually doing in military building If we publish how the matters stand that we spend over twice as much as the US on military needs if we let the scope of our expenses be known all our new thinking and our new foreign policy will go to hell Not one country in the world spends as much per capita on weapons as we do except perhaps the developing nations that we are swamping with weapons and getting nothing in return We said that we are ready to publish data and we are pushing the Americans on this account but if it really comes to that what are we going to do But that is not the main thing We will not solve the perestroika objectives if we leave the army as it is the best scientific-technical forces the best production funds reliable supplies The littleComsomols are right why do we need such a big army Six million people Somebody told me that they are offering to lower the conscription age to 17 Maslyukov inserts a comment Yagodin came to me with this proposal but I refused to sign it What are we doing We are depleting our intellectual resources of their best young forces Who is going to conduct perestroika Yazov by November 9th I will present a proposal on all these questions M S probably gave him an assignment immediately after the conversation In the GDR we have stationed a powerful group of armored forces plus pontoon forces When all this hangs over them how can they believe that our doctrine is defensive There is also the question of reducing for now reducing our presence in socialist countries Today E A Shevardnadze told me about his talk with Grosz Right now the issue is not very acute But it could become severe under a situation like the one in Hungary right now And then we won't be leaving voluntarily we'll be driven out of there Dmitriy Timofeevich Marshall Yazov They say your troops are standing on a territory that contains a historical monument of world importance Yazov The territory contains a famous church A reconnaissance battalion and a medical battalion are stationed there but we are already moving them M S Thank God At least the monument is safe Laughter So comrades we need to think through this issue and discuss it with our friends I propose that the Defense Council considers everything Then we will come back to this at the PB Does anybody have any questions Everybody nods Ryzhkov very tensely I feel responsible to say that if we do not do this we will not achieve the XIII five-year-plan and there can be no talk of a raise in the quality of life Whatever government you place here it will not resolve this problem without reducing military spending M S If we all agree and if we make some major decisions then I plan to announce this in my speech at the UN Everybody Yes yes M S This will make a great impression after the agreement to liquidate middle and short-range missiles and after Afghanistan this action the world will see that is not empty talk these are policies We will advance the entire process I would put it this way with all the significance this has for the impression in the world and for the advancement of our policy of peace the most important aspect is still perestroika Nikolai Ivanovich Ryzhkov is right we will not succeed with perestroika without this action There is no question that we should be militarily powerful But we should achieve our power through scientific advancement through technology through qualified cadres and modern organization of our troops Planes missiles but not like Karmal who sucks us dry but doesn't produce results We cannot be weak This is the axiom But we need to be powerful for security's sake not for the purposes of intimidation M S also said that he is talking about unilateral reductions not about the material that is going into the negotiations with the Americans and the mandate of Vienna meeting This will be the evidence that I was present at an event that may well take the second place of importance after the April of 1985 Additionally the PB discussed food supply to Moscow On this count there was total mess and nonsense both from Zaikov and Mesyats We did not reach anything even M S could not think of something There was also talk of Memorial 1 Kapto already started to act he wrote a denunciation But M S took the following approach it's your own fault you decided to create a memorial to the victims of Stalinism and once again nothing got done So people decided to do it themselves except now they have exceeded the limits Kapto is already charging it with the desire to become an alternative political structure M S stifled that idea and said--study it We discussed Solzhenitsyn Frolov I and Shakhnazarov write him Gorbachev a protest against Chebrikov and Medvedev's note which says that we should uphold the decree that strips him of his citizenship as a traitor of the Motherland M S understood our point of view yes he is an enemy irreconcilable and staunch But he is an ideological enemy and we do not try people for their beliefs in a legal state So think about it The authors of the note sat there steaming Chebrikov 1 A non-governmental organization formed in 1987 Memorial was established in order to find information and build a memorial to the victims of Stalinist repressions tried to interject that he did betray i e there was an action M S just hemmed at that Source Anatoly Chernayev Diary Manuscript donated to the National Security Archive Translated by Anna Melyakova for the National Security Archive This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu