' - 1c ir ' ilTIZED c1lepar1 1 DEL -----Washington Defense D C J--f -o r INTEmTATIONAL SECUBITI AFFAIRS STATE-DEFENSE CON FERENCE WITH SACEUR Otf 'm 'W APPROACH ATOMIC PLANNnfG 6 October 1954 - 3 35 p m - Room 2E-859 Th' Pentagon Washington D C DE lAi SI IED 1t o u o ea ZI Copy 2 No 598-9 1 -' Rf 0 r a 1 31 Qi Conference Reporting Section Reported by Hedges Savonis Extension 55175 Room 2B-925A w10r-SELH f-- -- - - -- --- I OFFICE OF THE ASS TANr 0 DSFENSE s -AFFAIPS nuERNAncrw wrm BACEUB -DEFENSE COriJ'ERElCK ON -o APffiOACB A PLAlmOO o t p o o o i o - o oo - ' - o o ooo 6 octooer 1954 - 3s35 o - p o -111 _ oom 2E-859 oo ' o V In Attemance z - o - oo _ _ __ - t ' - o 4 - o o o- o I 'o 1 o - ' I f' _ -o w 'Andersen tlSN o - -1- o - o ' Bear Adni - o' ' -- - - o t-9Jo Qen R B LOper USA - r ' - - - - ' o o ' o o _ - o o' t Br 1a GCJn _-ic Truesaeil tJSAF o M ' - - ' - _ _ -- - --- -- o __1 - t o Brig Oen c o R Bonesteel 1 JSA ' 1 - o -o o o -- o __o - o I r ol a _ _A Schmid US Ai'_ - - - ' C 1 -c l i t tr ' ' Lt Col J - e Billups mA o 1 o Lt Col C o F o Bea sty U3A Lt Coi R B Wilson tJSA STATE - Dep oo UM Secy at state B Murphy Amb w w Al drioh o f 1 _I I ' - _- 1-f - - -- - - - J _ - o - - - - ----- - - - - -TOP -SfDflEI J o 11 ' S'J ATE ccmt'1nued J B R Bovie Mr M r Bo ' - Moort ' J Gallaway o - Mr J Pal mar o ''i t o w Mr c Elbr1ck Mr ' ' SACEUR - Mr J J Wol t ' o I o' - m mzte USA- Col L ' - -L o oo o 7 r o - - - - o o 1 o I oo' o o# - - o o ' ' ' ' ' - o ' I o - o r o o oI o o - - -- - - - ' o o ' I- T oo l 1o State-Defenae Conference with SACEOI o o The on' ' N v _Approooh o Atomic Planning was convened at 3 35 p m - -ii - -859 the on dth Vice Admiral A c vis - es cling o o o - I - oo o VICB ADM DAVIS ra _ r late - oooo o _ o o o oo o ' o ' oo o o I I am o I o o the position oo o o o o t of trying to chair this meeting because Mr Hensel has o - _ - ' - i _ _ _ ' o - o _ - - o o c o ' oioeturnecf hi m tr r xtt tm Battle _ rbad much c hance - _ oo o o _ - o o -t' 'o' o o just of Lond and hasn't - to ree d all -' the details o oo - I - o _ o o oo 'I o o - The -v d y re8 son or course for this is to set ' Ur ducks a row with our views getting De fonse tate ' ' ' o o ' I think Admira l Radford may be I -'e ast ve go ahes d o ' ' ui a row for greeiDg at 'the highest ievel and then tak lrig o' _ _ -major decisions to the Presi t W 've 'Worked very hard tar a l - time on r etaf'f' level on this w o e o t subject and we have had cc msiderable s tlCcess in getting end - and -part c u ly s in- ee t - - o - - -- --- tione i a o o o o o o o o o o o oo o o o o I o o o o ' o o 1n drafting the pi r vel bas l on the t o the Military- Cormnittee e d o o o ' ' o New Approe ch problem o It r o -ohaa -at thia po1nt--'beeri s ubject to_agr ment on the German o o oo ' o o o o o - o o - o o o ii o o contribUtion bas the blessing ot - ' - o o o b essi Dg o state o o - o o - o o oo oo _ o o o _ 4 o o - and 8 _ '_ ' ' o o ' o o _ 1e X think State has one ' I ' ' - o o o o ' _o - -i fiSfi -_-' - - o - this yellow iJBper - Mve one but' th iso n hing in 'the agenda lX'Pl lr ' t o - o - o o the - and prou p on the sto ff level o Y Oen 4 r -ba o tbs Joint Ch1efs ' bas the re Olly three cop1eii ot this - - o o o _' - o - - - i -- r re f Vhich ts in conflict with the tb1 nld ng Everyth1Il6 is in step It everybody bas copies cr meet eve17body ha a copies of these agenda -items end their discussion it ought to be _f airly simple to eee-vho t I think is tho primary queation look at it vh 1 ch ia haw best ani most i lly to inoculate our NATO friends with tbe idea of the atomic 4 o o o o o reapon concopt Ybat the speed and effort - that regard and just haV to s o it And vc all f el o r s 1eve praot cally e er l 8rt f tbai at should be 1n ea oh ot these items are important and we also want to con- d - w go - there - be lhl ch might o o C o - o 1 _ - sure that referral -to the Joint Chiefs to 1IBke ' o' ' - bing 1n this - o tha t It's also important to remember ' re- we do keep 1n step o Justify # ' o --o o i f' there is sort t l an Ve have to do - h we 4 c an to keep up tb9 schedule o I think the schedule is rea - - o o o sonable if' ve danot strike any rea1 snags ' ' o Nov the proposed objectives -- it s eemo to _ t eems to_ - Qr - that the toll ght b e - o a _o our objectives o 'Iou 111 oo rlnd this me and outline I on l a ge 2 of Tab B To d lop 1n NATO e nuclear cape - _ - o '' _ b111t as be best de ent of Soviet aggreseion J t o _seek without jeopardizing the NATO alliance o o t -'_ -- _ _ o -- o - n _ _ --_ - j - 1 oo -' - - - - -- - ijY r-- w l o vJ a a 1 or its deterrent ef' tect to bave the NATO prepared _to take iimnediate militar - action in tbe tmmt of use asgression i n c l the or nuclear veaponsJ end to obtain by virtue of 2 above or by supple- s rr entary arrangements the necesoaey U rights required tq support defense plans ' It doesn ot eeem to me that there is any question operatill8 The problem is hoc to reach about vbat our objectives are them but I 'VondGr i t there are any comments on thoe_e pro- posed obJecti es on my i age I Do theae tbr01 lgb b cause everybody m a -them - you ve aey commen s on these General Gruentlier'l oo ASST Sm ' HENSEL Can l make just one preliminary - _ - _ -- - o o _ ' ' ' _ Io o o o o o o o - -- ' rl JZBrki Al Juat -beror o % lert on I 119 V aenera1-s_c hu yler -t ooo - o o o o 1 t o o _ oo-- - o _ o'r '_ o - - o o ' o o oo o - o and I talked 'to in about this 'ideologi al prepe ra1t1on and I o _ - - - - rememlier icularl our conversations in Jul1' Vbere you oo o ' iteu 2 l n s t reed - ag nua ot tab B which is The Proposed Program regarding Psychological Preparations - I doubt it it is o If not let's ca ke a look a o o ' - oo o o I o o ' o o o o o o f o - o o o ' -o - J o o I ind ica e4 you f lt a c Ttain a11l0Ullt of psychological JJrepara- - t 0 oo o o o o o o o o o t 4 _ - ' o -_ - o tian had to be ciano with respect to the European nations e nd o oo - o ' o o - oo f - o I o' o th industrial St and repre entatives of' ' o I got t'rom Scbw'ler that a oonsiderable amount 'the impression of' work a l _the t line hacl a l reacy been done 1n your talks o oo o o t - o -- 'o the 111 St mportant iofus nations t dng trom a 'p s hoi cal 'fL w o r I _ _ 1' ' _l' _pf J 'o - - - H4 ti- L -- o o a - ' - -- ' -4- sta Ddpo 1 nt was for tba United States really to adopt a firm position and then go forvard rlth the other nations and he seemed to env-laion that it was very dif'l'icult to make much more progress than you have done to date tmtil the United States took a firm position I just wanted to 111Bka those remarks that you'd cover that _1n whatever y had to say emu ORUEN'l B ERt Mr Hensel I 1d like to cover 3 ha whole subject which 1s going to be items 2 and or them because t'v b ain 3 con b icked very quiclr' J y on all can v l thout the even phase prci p os1t1on and I think I 4 state the probie - -we see it rather briefly -1 o oo o There are 1n this pe per certain suggestions in regard schedules o am not going to about those t 31 - - - schedules at all because I think it l laY i e a aid that I _am ' perhaps in disagreement with the whole idea and theref'ore - th question or soh duleo becomes academic because I read I ' o 0 J o into this a certain sanse of urgene on the part of' the ------------------- -- - --- - ----- _ - United States to h forward on this subject and I feel o - - o - ' 'o - o _ oo o I _ o oo -o ooJOo _ o I ' o 'I O o 1 -o __ ---- o -- - - - there is a grave danger 1n pushing forward too soon Thua _ - - - this is drafted in terms of weeks I visua 1i e it in terms ___ ' - ' _ of months ana months a id r r J view is tba t as of this - -- --- ' - year we eight well be considering the proposal time next _ that 1s be1Dg put t d now but I think it 1s just that_ - _ o o' 5 - I o - 71 zz- JPY -5- 'far ahead of schedule So that's basic idea You have outlined the Now what is the problem Question aow objectives vi th llhich I agree completely to meet them My view an how the Nev Approach studies to meet tbet11 is to proceed on In other words this yellow piece of paper to have that considered by JL TO the North ----- ---- - - - - -- - --- _ _ o-# - I Atlantic ComicU and that begins to get all of these ducks -- ---------- - -- o I' oo 'o lined up - - and 1 - #o - o o o 'r - - - - - you get in NATO the basic ccmce which is - o - oo ' ' 7o - - oo o' - liar as an'-atond a' to tight this oo --r-o -- 'o -- - - o - c o- - _h _be_s1As o P8Y' i-C n _ - - _ _ __ o o oo o oo oo' - have that you c _ - - o ' war an 1 that atomic wea 0 19 o o o o- - ooo - - ' set line o ' o - o l _ 4' have -to be 1JSed initia ui wile the eneuzy- uses them or not o to o _t _- - - u ' i - GBP - t ' - Now once you get that accepted -o i have achieved - P -o 4 a very maJor part e nd Yo u've solved a very major part ' ' problem - - ot the Thesa othera begin to apiDe into line I_think i _ - - -- b 1 _j 1'8 - o_t t o_e _ -P - rieo t o t i -- Jr 1 - 2 _ te - 1n - - - piece of paper o o o 1 -- o o four steps l t o o o - - -- -- -- o oo negotiation a Bilatera'l oo oo o o oo - - - I b Multilateral negotiation o o 4 - - o - - - - - c SACEUB to do the negotiatillg o d To get f t incorporated into an alert __ _ ___ -'1 _ _ 1 My ' ' - --- Sr - ' ' c - -' - ' oJt - ' oo J - o view ie tbat all four of those_ premature o _ tt j-ou ' ---o ---o o o - ' _ o o Y e - - --- f'ol lowed vhat I think namely that as of a year trom now - - -- - -- -- r- -- o - - - o --- - ' i l o-6 ' set this tbat 'ic u might - - conditioning I wouldn't care vbich -d1d I VOul d put tbe onee that vere lea st desirable o -- r_ U to ha SACEUR ge1 1nto it - i oul4 think that vrcmg for him tc ao it In words --th af t eo o o o o o o o -I - o I o o o o f o o oo o o I o o '1 _ o it would be o o o o o o o f'our pos- s1 il1t1e o that you listed be possibilities 3 and 4 vould o be at o o oo o o - o - o o - the bott_om ot 'l O'o' priority liot I don't think SACEOR o should be - - ' o o - in that o o o o _ ' - o o o bUsinee s So if YOU can get this yell av pi -e or pape -a pted - 1 pr tico l hooe o Then job'l Then 1s thB job t 'get a __ 11hat ______1s __ the paosage at timo vh e these c i beg to e c itpt the '--- ' - o o o o- - Ip - - o o - - o o o o _ _ _ - o 4 o use Cit atotrl c bombs as a conventional means and they stop 4 - ' '- - - -- _ o -o- -- - - being afraid ot it o o 7 - na- r take oo fl o I would say that in a JYthl D8 less than a year -- country that o I know r fl little bit about Denmark There a Chinaimm 's chance or getting Denmrk to agree on-theiine to atomic - f'are in less than a year Wey do_I sq- a isn't ' year Well 1t 1a J_u st one I pull out ot a -bat thloee years 'GBPor that matter It may' _be Row in the aeantime you can creep up on th n s on this thina and we ove done a good deal of creep Ju s_t two weeks aso ve bad a group of Danish correap s c ome down to SHAPE we and eveey group that 'W5 he ve had more than fifty have that comes of them 1n the - -last year ond ve _haw been doing this fCfl ' a year -- p rt of o - - - o the routine ts Gentlemen 1n aey war at the future ve are ' going to have to use atomic bombs _ Dlless you your country is villillg to uiali e up the deficit 1n conventicne l torces but oo o o C o oo oo o oo -- - o oo o _ _ oo oo o o as ve see it we don't think JOU are going to nnka t going to - pioro are kicking about taxes -you beoause ' mmipav I - -don ot tbmk - -ou are o 0 o _ t o o o o J o Uj 1 and this is mortl ffer ything and - BO e just - be - t tive is to go against Soviet It o o o o o o conventional f'oroei e you are O ltnumbered where even 1 f' - o o ' does not - - are alveys om a pow-er position - operatillg at a grave _ disadvantage and ve think there is no - _ ' - _ - How '_8 - ve tried this with all k lJlds or gr0U s o' at c'onai bl_e _length JW3t tbree weeks ago e ' group of o churchmen came aver from Engl and and ve tried it on thee -- ot 'Andovar I and they Irate a letter to IOO o - a ri the ole group os igned this and said We have never troi l a little town - ' o '1 o o o o o# oo o o o ' - o o understoo d this before not that there is anything mgic b the vay we have put 1 aver but noboey- bad ever talren the trouble to put it over With them before Todayoo Wednesday o Two weeks a so today we had a group of Frenoh industrialists It happened to be one where ' That's what the press pie up I a bout controls - becaus e it vaa current but the real success of tbat meeting o ' we an the atomic omb b isiness At least tventy t -sixty _ up- end said e - unde tOOd this b tore - I ' - o o - - -lUnp r-fHF'T 1 1GBP-i - -8- Now I don ot say by speaking it you are going to be able to do it but I say by contin wearing away an this problem we vUl solve it because we haven't had a single group coine yet tbat we haven ot sold it Tow specifically I am thinkina of this not only the tel king ot it but it' we can get this plan approved ve will start impleu mting plans tar this thing We then get the Dane working on it and he works on a plan 1n a northern headqUtlrtera o It becomes part of the natiODal doctrine Before you know it Rasur 19 _Ranaen is advocating it himself m d working -on pl ans end so it is that type of operat 'on tbat I visualize and I think it can be solved in that line rather than any fixed schedule of tl l e rapidity of Vhich this one is Now I reoognir e thtlt WJPY J certain disadvantages 1'rom_the standpoint of the United states Well what are o o o o o o o o o o ' those disadvw rtases Well othe United States first of all wants s1 noe it is lllOVi Ds and since it is the operating agency of 11100t or_ thes_e atomic weapons -- it doesn ot want to be hangi ns on a c othesline here wondering about arrangements 13ut I think generally speaking we can make those u arrangements We have made arrEUJgements already vith K vhi h ore sZltisfac tory We have lade c rrnnec ent3 wit Frarice Which are eatis f'aotory AnA l think were the others r r t _ o i 1 J_' o ' are necessary ve can_IIBke them Now we have had two meetings o t our headquarters ' - - -- - _ _ - - - - where 'Ve put out a brietiDg 24 April for the Foreign - o o o - _ - oo o 4 Ministers and laid it on the l and said to them in ---o----- --- -_ __ ___ _ -- - o -r- o-- __ o 'f addition ''You gentlemon here have already approved the use - - - --- of atomic veapcxis well they obviously said ''The hell ' - -- -- _ --t to- - ve bave - o ' - o o f And 'Ve said B y limiting us to these forces - and be91c' '3 the en rrw lh 1ch 1s shown on this chart bere oo o o- _ _ -_ L - o - o r ' you in effect made the decision al ready You may not know - -- - you made the decision but ve want -you to know we th1Dk 7ou _ o o - o o o _ - _ ' o o made the decision - In the discussion riod nobody contra - - J have r ' ' o o - o oo - o J - Mr Bech tbe tux embO lrg eUow said I dieted o - o too Staf' ii U c n d said I ce n ot ir agine anything else I th - - - -JPY-Y _li W - - - repreo - ---- sentatives of the _C UnO_i l _out far a little exercise ve were I o - -- -- - - - o oo-- - --- ' o - -- -- _ - - o hav1Ilg in thb f t ld so I t ook this occasion to -tell them _ - _ _ - o o - _ -- o-- t- e bout the - oT same _'thing So t o o oo oo o - o o oo o o - - o o o o o o ' o - o - ow - started ago in The Belsian o- -o o 'I oo - - - o o o o o o - - - -- o- o- oo - - o ouaht Mr An e e S ercke got tCP and said I think e ___ __ - o -- - -- - -- - - '-o ' -- to put this on paper o - t started a good argument Really ---- o o o o 1 - - - ' - o r - _o o ' ' ' - - _ _ o --- - o las saying w s vb at I think his position _ ' o - '--- -- --r - o-- o o - o I _ o - _ - _ o- _- ooooo o o o o o 1a - - s _ - ve ought to sign on the dotted line o 1n effect -what he r _ -o _ I ' o o - -- s o1U ' o --'o o - _ - a f - right nw n oo ' ' o - o o - o ve o s t b_oys a_bi_ - from that one PC X tuguese Ambassador de Tovar made a speech 111 _ o - oo 1T I o - - o oo o- _ oo o 4 ' 1'oo - ot J ' l o 't - o o t 7 o - 7- o 1 ---- 1t J o o o I -10- --- e nd said General Gruenther I you arc the one to decide - _ __ _ _ _____ _ - -- - - - whether to uae o tomic bombs o My advice is den 't tell us ___ _ _ - _ - - _ -- __ __ ___ o about it If you do lll'ong we 1re goiDg to cut yom ' ' '-C - throat _ _ _ _ _ __ _ J o h o o o o ' oo o'- o o ' # o o o o oo oI neyuow For Ood os sake you go ahaad and do it Don't put these problems u p to us The governments don't llant- o- them _ J They ai en 't reo ey ao I dis_agree with Ambassador cie staercke Be got up end said how 4i tti- The t put Ismay on the spot cult it was to get the positions in his position with the British Chi fs of Staff' They tried tb e latter parj of the Thirties to vork up en automa ic case of procedure in case - of war for Ju 4 i To -itiah decisions ' The war cen e on them o I 'W'ith those -decis ons Dltaken and they had to start arguments all aver again wiien the war was on they They said That isn't it should happen I Just want to tell you bow tough it is to get I --- I'm -i 'i - d it -- The Dene 'h s ay oo - ' - - - - - - anything He said Please don't put that to rII f government - - '-- - -- -- - _____ o - --- _ _ -- - - ---- --- now He said They would never buy it If you let it in advance - - --- - -- - - - o -- - -o _ _ o ' ride and if ' OU keep work lng on them the will bey it before -- - -- - - ' - they kncnt it They will find they have purchased it and - - - - - _____ _ __ _ __ - o 'oo' -- -- _ I oo - - o o 5 - - - - never lmow vbat l ias' bit them o - ' - _ ' ' I Just give that as a general ouramar r because it is within that pbilosopb r that if' I were advisins the I 'o o o - o oo United States I vould advise the United States to get that yellow piece ot l aper through and then let DAture take its - o l o -11- c_o urae an much more gradual system than I envisage 1s vritten 1n tbese papers VICE ADM - DAVlBa -well Al is there really so o very 111l JPYlh ditter'ence betveen that and this o o o l proposa1 'w tch 4 is getting the yellow pa per _through pr1Jnar1l y7 OEN ORtJENTBER Well I read the schedule though and if' the ochedu le has tor its only purpose getting the yellow paper throush I am far getting that through at aey t time much o It's a matter tbat Gener o is of course tnOl'C qualified to talk on because he has charge s 1mp 1e tian in major part of U or a getting it through But if that's the tire object here to get the yellow paper through tb9n I bey it all Ko ver I read l lOre im o it than well take item 4 I agenda ite 41 where yo 1 shall SACE'UR BO it or whatnot the question_ Of I I would say that 1a Q uite premature because after you get the yellCM paper through thenJ as to whether SACEUR does it or eomeb -else it's a bit academic DEP tm DER Sl Xrr MCJRPRI Is this yellow paper Joe's study an the ''New Approach GENo COLLDS s Ito not SY study Bob but th is o is the Standing roup r e I draft report to tbe Standing Group an the tbree capab ity studies SACEOR SACLANT-'e and Obamlel Commands don ot you see And this pe per w_as a '1 'o I - I tJ vHL t- ' o - - I 45 ' TOP - 8GBPGRET - 'I -12- circulated the other day on agreement between State and Defense as a s 1 2 ff paper anJ y We have ina1nto 1ned our o position 1n this regard th t is ' oti'icially the United # t o o o t o o States efe e not l aSsiDg an 'this paper eitMr pro ' or con tmtil the question or German participation vas clarified 'Now we have 1 ntained tbs t Actually the British and the French kn v pertectly well that ve were participating in t his and I am quite sure they have also had sense enough to warrant not doing this independently at the level of lieutenant colonel or colonel Actually- this Q er now includes in ey j t is 1n cC11Sonance vith thC I Joint Chief's ar Staff guitlanoe to me and does inolude the major Joint Chiefso points 1n raot all tbs points that were raised by state representation in discussion With me VICE AIM DAVIS GEN COLLINS And the British and French Also the British e Dd French rlrie - ' I tb 1nk _it is a paper that he s been given considerable o thought I assure you cansiderable thought and I personally- recommend that we stick tC it llov I have so recommended to the Chiefs that tbe1 give me f11lal guidance on this by the loth of November in order that by the 1 5th or l' ovetdber we would then be prepared We will have re- ce1 by then i-r m the_ other non-Standing Qroup o ie - - - -13- their commento on this paper We hope that they will be minor 1n character o nd that say by the 23rd of November ve vould be able to get out a final dra t't of this lhich I would keep 1n touch with our own Chiefs on duril lg this procesa so tbat by about the 23rd of Tovember we could h e ve a Military Committee meeting right here 1n Washington and get fina l 1'tllitary Coumittee meeting approval on this It that is done then ve could have this ready f 9r d1strl but1on 1st to the Ministers a the ' of December If' we can stick to tbat schedule -- that baa nothing t do nmr tlie other part that General Oruentber - w ith - bas been talking about _ I am onl1 speaking or the schedule vith o o we 'can complete our outlined it cruld have M tages _respect to this 8per I ha vow d - o--_th t -leas o o - oo o o o o o o o t o o a paper that - - - o - - - o 1n that - it - f e the - ' ovo o o re4llT_bave_ they c - yeeks oo oo - - o1-o ooo _ o o normal December eting o Gcp edule as o it taken a look at Ccmmdttee v1ll baok and s t the kilite ey th 1t means that the Chiefs -ot ste tt err all cir thirteen countries tMt fourteen_ ountries haw d farces will get behind this don't you see -and support it with their polit _ leadere vhich I think is or tr OWJ 'a - importance prep u-atory thiD l to the actual meeting -i n December o o - o o o J ASST SECY HENSEL Let me get that clear are you sugg t that we shouldn't try to briDg this to l Al o o oo o - 12 --- -- -- - - - Tfl'J ---- 1 t11 e L - -14- - - o head 1n the Council meeting 1n December but wit tmtil sometim in the spring ' I augges_t tbat this paper be brought to a lu9ad as soon as it is convenient o do it ASST mY HENSEL That is December isn't it no sooner t 1 GROENJ BER o If General qollins decides they've got a paperwork proposition of gettlllg it ar0tmd They do that and that solvcs this problem Nmt there 1s -- I don't mean to sa I am trying to simplify this paper out of' existence that you have here I recognir e that tbere is also a problem ot the exchange of information cm atomic I o 1Jif'ormat1on That to tDiY' mind is a separate proble 1 and I would go so far a3 to ay that I think thb t that should be carried on even if this paper s dela yed because it 1s conceivable that giving the Ministers two_weeks t study this paper they mar se y ''WeJ now this 1e aWful tough here You f' ellow have been e t these papers since the first of July and you give me Denmark tvo veeks to stucb it I'm not prel EU ed to study it which may bril Jg up in the minds or the United states ''W maybe we'd better hold up Il implemantati m of the Atomic Energy Ac bec uze there is e type of l hilosophy in ome of the papers ve all consider this e s e package deal I r e c ap1 nst I -15- I the pe cmge deal and _recommend ogainst the quid pro quo argument 1n comi eotion with exchange of in forms tion 'because i Wd enough time e nyhov beoa'USe the oing -t bave Y8 are o o o oo o o - - _ o o o o revieicin of the Atomic' Energy Act bas been badly misunder' sto __ - a l1l1 sU1Jderst 31 tor me idea we w t'ln ot take Je n lJfJ r1 - wen For example I had -rl o o er one until the hird of the so-called committee goes UP to the oom 1 tteo of c ess o s ai ue are th 1nking the bill pe s_s ed 011 19 Jul 7 -- they thought on 20 July they'd ate rt getting inrO' rn e tion or 1he n th' 7 find it 'Will b elosi ' - next J wby their view ar the 2oth ' the world e nd the benef'ioiril a bit effects of ntooic energy are going to start chilling 'We are catching that right now The tellcu needling the devil out of' ma is Embrey who has re P po nsibUity 1t and he I a first-elasa needler and is 'beginning to 1 hink - this is a phoney When be till out 'Which I diah ot kn until a ve k ago that the ear ieert you c d have this to go va s 1n Congress the third of January and expect 1t to be a pproved by too third of Feb GEN COLLINS It oa going to sit there GE i GIDMlTfiER days It's goiDg to sit there thirty The third of Febnlary is the abst 3-ute mini h could get step one of this I kn CW' t t here ie in this paper o - there ie more to it than Just getting this o ' o - tbrough i I ' -16- I but I separate the projects atb e t words - - tbat is No l simultane l y when the oe lendar rolls around to the third of January I hope this agreement doesn't have a damn thing to do with that piece of -po per that 1t soes o ' independently of it It I could revert to one of your GEN COLLINS ' 'o o' o o - ' V - i - o Stat '' ' o -- - o-' V _ '--'-'V C v J v 1-4- oo o _ o --c 'U J- w v J only one or tvo weeks lt isn't as bad as that - - I -' This paper has already been distributed to their Chiefs of Staff permanent repreaentativee told at the etins 1n Pari l'er8 on the 15th of September tmt this las I go1 Jg to be don o feel they are all eSBer awaiting seeillg this 4 certain ' Not ' or start v 111 s it but as in our c e t - pe rtment f Detens -th nel artment state - - the r - ve seen it and so 'W'ili the _ Mirrl st rs see it I think the jua - o T'tl O o I - o -Chief's oo o o o oo o 'o _ _ sters countries probab cy b4ve a l r -it so a c t tbq vill - ve --1 -1 0 _ -__ _ _ _ ot some of the o o o oI o o o o o But on the other band in caatrast to procfidures tbat we have bad heretofore what v-e lla'1 done 1s have di ted this to rrive in Paris one day and the next dey the Military d tt e comes up with a document and says Here 7ou guys approve this II Well we couldn't possibly do it vi th this _ pape so that 1a the reason from the beginning we bave endeavored t _o give e a consideration to this - o much time for _ I o 4 ' - ' o ' L I of'1 ' 11 - r j J n f ro ' i -oA- 1 t # -1 J ' L ---- - -17- not sol ely Group coumries but to other to S NJding ' tries as vel l _ ' u I v ADM o I ' o o oo COU l - o are prett wei i think Vf _ in step 'hat dis ussiori at the end -was really intended to ell n s pre ation take ncc t- of etc that you o o o o oo ' o maybe but 1 t rou r ly I ask questian ba scribed oo o o a little un f'airly - _ i ' o - r oo oo a' o ' oo s reauy o - _ o ' o o ' o o o oo do belieTe we should face - the Counoil vith the yellov iia r at the next liATO meeting o o o - _ -- oo -i o ' - o o o o t _ve _ue_ e117 te 1n step 1n being careful then I and l ill remember 'what you said ' very- bltere ttng out is - -- o - - o -- _ _ o __ - _ - that it is o _- I think other thing thot - o t f if' people do bave a o o - o _ o oho nee to be tol4 tl lei do bAve a little ense oi _ - -_ ' - - - om COLLINS I wCllder if I cou cl plok this up - aglilii for a min e Mr c i rman 1 n stfl port of w iiat General o o o o o ooo o o l oo o oo oo o o _- G ther bas saicl general support of Vhat he said I bad -o o _ -r - -- - - e clia t recentq vith General Foulkes Who is tbs ChairlaaJi or 1_ o o _ o o o o o ' - - - tlie 'Canadian Chiefs end that we o ' - I outlined to him - it Was the day spoke to the Military Representatives Committee here -- to of this x l ined the in general the obaraoter paper emphas tzins that it did not come U P with a bill ot ' o o r o o o- o o particular an which the Cotmoil would haye to take immediate a tion but that it did list broad categories at things which - be - 3 ana as a minimum meaoure wbicl1 would ead to an ri ctive der e or llest rn Eut-ope T' 1 - l '' o o 7 Jo 1 - i J i a ' - IDP -18- I ot this paper In the_ original draft we bad made specUiq f e the pr 1t1Do that a com it t o o' o o o oo o o o o -o o oI o o oo ooo o o Cl1 oo the part o r o ey country Vb 1 eh coa_imi't ted forces to SAC'EtR I o o - oo o ' oo oo o o o o arrted -aut ticail i a tlneni_ o t t he use o f oo - o o o o c tcitrl c_ opens in o of o o o o o I # awn tn thia document o much toned had a chance t o road 1t knCN o Ttat baen torce tll030 o _ Those ot you who have - - - - _ o - --- o _ o Foul lo s made thia eu spat1on said Well - o o o - ' 1 ' _ - 11 - - - '_ - or o o as e -mt t r f'aot _tbe C' U bas aliea TIJj lieitly l taken action vbicb authorizes -the SACBO'B to use tbl9se _o o '- o o o o o I o o me 'to El document wbich X lJJ ompt o - o o o _ 0 I oo - l' ae 14 When and vberet And tbcn h rei erred o -- -weapons - o r o r o Io oo o o looked uP - o - o o it ts DC-6 and o o o oo' o o oo# ' t oI o o t is tense Committee Document No 6 1 - Yh ioh _ante ted r _ i _ this doo i - o1- o - _ ' _the pre ent Ccnmcll but which approved 1'he dot e pf o ' o o - o o 1 o o - is 49 - approYed ori the - - li t 1 t o 9 lf - this -- _ - ' t '' - - - o o - - 6th of r ebruaey_by tM lorlh At ic Council _ - - 1 o o o o - ooo itself' - eo this is nw a OounoU _documimt o - - o o ' o o I' oo o o L VICE ADM DAVIS _or o o lest Febrtnr -1 - bitting them - O o - I oat et that meeting o It was Just ei _ - _ OEN COLLINS L1eten to th111 statement f o o o _ --- - '- 1'hese are military MaSures to implement the o o -t _ -- _ defense con0ept anc1 - o - _ - - -o lOP SED 1 1 J o19- This is under the -heading of Basic Undertakings o oo 4 o o o o Continuing defense '-ro over-all pi ans un tDt pr de - a d c iJ1 me y- B cif'ioally o 'far the tollowi ng basic erta'ldnas 1n turtherance ' o - - - '- of th CO Oil bJectiv t de 'end t l rlh - oo _ - -- - o - - J o o o o - o- o - oo ' oo o o oo o o o o o ' Atlantic area The suocesetul caiduet o-r tbese undertakings should 9e assur'4 by close coordinao o - tion or lldl it ry- actioti aa - et forth 1n 4 t-- - - - _ - _ 0 1 o - - j - -oii t - f o _ _-- o O o plans d in 9 ure th 'ability toAcarr - wt stra ' egi 6 - y all a us poss_ible-vit - ' ' - ell y-pe_ s_ of veo p v ithout exception oo ' o o o - J _ pra cti -abl - by o o This i _s o _ r o as nati n o o Noy tbat is dawn 1 n bl ack _BM - ' o o a U - s _ - ponsibility assistedJ primarily o - - - o J - ' wl4t - 1 8 Sil t a t tbe metiJlg o - - ' Maybe Al would disagree nth JQ' good f'riend Charles Foulkes 1 o o o ' o o o o o - o oo a - o o_ - o '- o o r _ o - They wrote this defin11 el y vith the busines s ct ustzis ataJJic o o o o o o o o e pcms in_ - - o _ oo I o_' o o o o o o o a _I -sq l fi I sluiply o o o o o peeldng_1n _ _ ral support of y approe ch rt seems to me that - if we can set approval _ at ' this thing 1n December I it would have this great vantage o o o - o - - o O putting pressure QD that 'troin then on out vould be NM ' ' - these countries to oome up vith agreement on these bilateral - -_ negotiations or trilateral negotiations rather 'thaz ely _ El- l 0 t _j o o i l -1 v1 - 20 o a t t rol l e Pal1t1oal point of view that that would have certain advantf36es the ther band I ciai 't think this vould ba On in cO ll'lict with what a l Gruentber rzy personal judgment that 1g hJPY 1n mind - Ito far this 1 8 Cr m 11 call n really full-out discussion for the f4-at time in a Council o o o t o o of this basic problem - I just don't think that can be o ' o o - - es aped I think it would be dvise ble to attempt to - - escape it o ffmt 1 we Ddghtol1Qt bQ in agreement there I just think tllat any intelligent man t reads this paper ' o - o o o - I o o oo oo o oo o o o o o o 'Hill r li the tremendous s _ignifioance of it and t _h at -' it is going t be 1nescal Qble that the matter be discuseed 1n Farls not vith the i o o o - o o ot 'tald ng aet'initive action a t o - o o r o o o o _ that time -- I thoroughly agree with you there -- but tt tbo __ Counci says that they agree to the matters that are listed - fn the last t enclosUl e two pa gee of this paper the U' i ide blg t ir appr - atomic -weapons '- --util wticm ot immediately my N tbey decide that they d_ 't want to take that act1 an1 don't yau see But I am - _ am_id - tbat as - Ms report is draw mless it is - o - o- o 1 - ' ohflnged between t o o ' o o o o oo o o o _ _ o o o o ' o the first of December that it is DO r md o o o o o o o I going to be inesoe pe ble to have that Ministers debate and the w111 l e faced with the probl m of saying Well now wait wiien ve say_we approve -o o oo _ o o J oo orop o ooo _ i a udnuto o o o ' L o - J o J o o - - I - o o o _ 11 o i et ma see the VOt dinSo o o o oo I o ' - _ t o o WI Our recommendation io Approve in principle -- that's good diplooatio phraseology It eaves an out Ap-grove 1n P 1nciple the ures 1n t ncloaure o the rep as being _thoae most ne essary to ad a pt mU taey forces er- a o o l o suvreme tu ture Jor wr and note tbat the Allied Comman ope ' bas prepBred l l deI o tS 11 list of program r ommendatic v 1- t he vill use as a basis 'tor turther etuey and - action But theae fella rs e going to give pause even before t r approve 1n prinoiple these thillss o o ' o o '10c Giffl GRUENTHE8 On hat I shquld se r tli -s I am not N ghtillg the proposition of baving this discussed at the - NATO meting in D e 1onderful T Qat oa fine vhat I vant to do When it co_mee to tba particular paragraph 1n there that sort or' approval I t That sort of appr I think in fact we will get because it doesn't put aey apecific thing _where he sisns on the dotted line ''I the _P rime Minister of Nor m y' do solemnly ee y vhen I make forces cOlll litted under Article -V of the North Atlantic Cot lmittee it is simultaneously with that that I understand clearly that it is atomic wo rtare '' Re doesn't have to sa that - f f ' ' o o -- - - o That's mat he wants not to hav to sa 0n the 15th or ecember YOP _o a - -o o I e sree vith you EN ccLms I of events beins ' if ASST Sm _ EHSEL designed to you e_tb is schedule get tpis 1 9110 t pa per - approved min1ater1al policy have we left out anything Forget M - _about the _dates Xaep 1n mind that veore shooting f'or Decem - b- r 15 ve we left_ 4 ne bing that ouahi to be or don Ya got rui_ything there_ ycru advise ot to do I tl 1nk ve are going t ever ything quite vitbin the time have ' - clear ve e just We are hoping this talk an nsree- limit you_ thought _L et's 'change it and be shooting to S 3-t thAt dtJD manta and ex change ' nuclear 1n t' orme t1on march e along aide _ int the by side _not as quid pro quo but o tends to get naw session will be Joe here because he 1s tlie f ow _wh j 8 writins papers -and_nursing them thr so _I vould defer to liie j t on that As far as we are cC11Cerned -- ASST BOOY HENSEL GEN COLLINS GEN GROENTHERr I w nt to get both of you -- I think we are in e coard As tar ae wo are c_aicerned I have no - ASST SECY EL All 'right From_ bat BJ Sle l o o 1 also he ving in mind your vievs of the psychology over there tou mq be a little cl er to that than Joe is I oo o i t L 4o o o o J ' e1 '-' j i' -23- - OEN OROEN'l1iEGBPh Well maybe I arn olooer to the people o o I lant to get both or you ASST SR Y HENSEL on_t 18 ' - GER GRUEN'l'BER Yeso I dono think as far e s I can tell that Joe end I are 1n cny disagreement unless I said something to vhioh be dise srees Jo no The only point I t to OEii COLLOO be su -e o- and Al has clarified that -- is that ho voUld o o o o - o o o I o - tmd welcome as I vould welcome o _ o o I think it's inescapable e really f'ull-fledged high-order discussion of this of the problem that is prosentea I o o -' ve it to the good if we -is - o thia er 1 ' I just think r - in December _ Yo followed this so cloe for State o - - it' As d on ot see how it is possible to eso e pe discussing General Gruenther eai4 it is quite a different thing agreeillg r 'o I wander U you have comments VICE ADM DAVIS - o n e o ' action so I don't t tbat that should present a such - great pr blet l tor '18 at the C01mci1 meeting When Ve o were discus's ing this here before our pre- - - f - 1 - l or occupation was not so much 1n raet not at all vi the - ' oo -- - - -' - ' - - - o ol ' - o o o oo J - Jo - - - - ' - - _ - - o t o-4' - o -- o o ' o _-24- militaey e ment which 1a stated in this o - t o paper but - - o nth tbe timing and the approaches Which Oruenther -- General ' hl_k1n - out o I ve 1e-taken c a r e - has been o o o - o _ o - ' ' o o o o o - oo us or that -p reocoUi ation 1n the - oo 'I - paper o fr Ci' cottns - t re is on v J r the r - C u 'j I vas prepared in the terms that it originally_vo s prepered o oo w a that - o o ' o o 1 o o '- o _ that ws cor e nth' t -- tibns that o o o ' o o o o 'o 1 o ve bad to attempt to ha that vritten ii ito the o o o o o o o o is the gui e tlult I o o o received o o - o o - o ' j o o o o ' o pa_per t o - ' o o o o and that did Juive the' - ai pr oval_ of the Joint_ Chiefs bf Sta ft' Now that reference tooArtiol e V baa been removed f rcm this paper _ s re the 1 n e ting that both tht Bl 1 eh - - -- - o o o o o ' o _ o o oo 1 1- 'r Group Yer i 'er and French r F Sentatives an the stanc'J1ng - o _ oo o t'ec Y rcaq t9 accept the la ngua ge that we a r y in-ote o ' o o - o o o i in here However vhen it o back the '3rltisli repre t - o - - o senta ive lu d instructions to tone down that' thi Dg aZl4 to o _ 7 _ - ' - eli te rtirerenoe Artiol v tin4 tbe French si ly to o o o o o o o - - o f bad tructions not quite as -t isht aGBPt those which t ' ' British represe nU ttve be d o - OEN 2 - or CQUrse but see the French ' o - one naw I W l - absolute' cy positive never got to Mendes-Franoe Oli no ' COLLlNS am JROE fl'HER or course this - - is the wo l point - - the Soviets are going to wage their propaganda on nowo o o - ' -I o o I ' - r - - T61ti Si f J _ 1 j -' ' _ - B'P - --- CIJ - o o I -' oj think this bas to be eval ted largel1 from the propegande standpoint You have to meet the Soviet propaganda by anoth9r or them ia line and one to grad get _these fell t c accept this and thato about as good an get mlSWer as 7 ou can to the Soviet line because they're cOl ling 1n on this women and children argum c ld tha y're going to play it on ell ke13 V' iship -Jki a week ago today start No 1 'tlnited ate_s on -1-f -by putting -this' very o - aocument Qf Ms forward except be was vitriolic in his criticism Wl 3 he didn't start out h s talk In all -h lily we bAve aclvnnced tbiO ce u a in the c u so of peace o o o _ iri the o - o - 1 - - o o He deliberately lad a speech full of bitterness on it which '' L o o o oo 11v 'M T _y_ o o - he didri't havs to do o but they ' ' - o - ai d bitterness don't go together I do think we must ell recognize GEN COLLOO f'act now getting - ore going tter 1t o the - 1t W o 41 o o not push_forward rapidly -t d mo definitive egreemente both for use -Ot bases ' - - so for wea off bases - d I spee nov or guidea missiles atomio c on and things of tbs t - - character and ohavinS something or that sort vritten into - t o - o -the alerts until we do tmt 1n the event of -vhioh - I otJA - i don think is going to happen in this il it rim - i f ahould cocie t ve could be at a very a d beoauae it serl di s- would take soma time before ve cOW d o oo - I ' -26- ' ' o o I o ' o - - - 'o o Wt1 n counter-e t01111o ieuui ea le have Just - to leari ie- taldng t- kn I - _ _ _ _ o J _ - - J EP o o - -- o' UIIDER mx y J IBHII i Apropoa that' OO j thing - - o - w c ught it -aver o o o _ to gloaa o - d01l 1t thi o k _ o - - o 0 Gruimtber said surprised m 1 o 'ffli ie r re nee thllt o' agree t s 1n the u l and Fr8l Oe are eatisfe ot017 GEN GaOERl'H Qu - 1'act01'7 I v d thia When I say that they're aatia - that they're vorlrab1e Dd the - - ' use or the word satiefactoey - be an overata o ' ' They hnvo den this -- the U 11' -- llZld I th1Dk - - ' ' -- this ia goiJ lg to come into any ogr ement taat ' ve get it option year tr0111 nov or CIIJe C ff r Vhen get vbatb1u f'rOlll J l N -the - ' the attack ta'keo pl li e from there end it o is goil Jg to take ticls bef ve have that clear SOG e DEP ''lfflDER o ' tw years we amt MURHUI 'until o ' ' o we cim build 'ltP the ccnviction thio t e reaU y in thair il lterest inore thlm I - o o o it is in ours oo ooo 1 o am GROEri'l HER Tee so se ring sat1sf ozr ' 1s are because I think tb a t the people o wre operctil Jg it t cognizant Ta1'e the u K of it nov ' Tbs tr K 1111' eethate at tbe U It 1a this -- the u L 1s getthig ' ready to buil4 'l'P a bOl lber- for us llhioh has no purpo9e at o o - o _ toad a bombo o all except o r o o o o o o o 4 o oo o o o Tbq might aa - o - - wu - o o - o it 1 o the Jiaatui-e 1f tbeJ''re goillg to 'do tbat aJl4 tbq'i'e ' ' - - 'o - o - o I - - o o ' - o -r 1 o-7 dHl _ 1 ooti' -1- l o-- - o VI- - zr iot or opendi g on theno b rs a d and 'it bas no ' other function 1n 11e Yot'ld cncept to- op atom bombs AMB AmRIOB' As I_understand it they'J e tryiDg to Ret coru ent to have tho bOftlbe une thooe boa s OUr case CJ 3'thinG brom the r came GBU i1$R As a mtter of' over t 'o oee oo and said o daz i ot m wot- eh c pe to_ 4 in o - - o o o about thnt o ' - Don't l R Jind me - VICE ADM DAV tS _ oi' Plan K vmt ao you put - 'JdnA Mendea Fre 2X o 's d tion at the f M-pover ccmf'erenoe ASS smr mmsm _ J AJ vJ- to loo France frt O - c t1on c tor dc weapana Scenery' GEN - GR0ER I BER question ago in U s ' - - o ' ' - You don ot think it repreaents To I don't think so c cccpt cc o tb 1l l a anco - e nd U K ASST SF CY HEDSEL proc'l u tion of They want to be in the big league vith the OE T GRUEN'J Et lH I ito - this prectiae ASST Sm ImnSEL It represent J some little er it d un ot it 1 o o '- o o r -28- ASST SECY HENSEL some little acceptance of' thD import x e ot oee veapons OEN _ t Oh esJ I t ohe accepts the - I i111Partanoe ot them all r1sbf ' - - DEP um ER Sm a o MOBim l I thOUSht I detected v1ae' area of isnorance 1 enjoy in IQ' caae -ot r - ' - _ o France has tli vaguest id ea t technique involved- 1n 1 dcmot t un c es th e pons - - ASST DEP 0 I i didn't mean to mtDEB SEC MD U'RY1 Which__ makes SFCY - - o 0 a he c1idn' t - BENS e _ d ifi' ' ermice 1n tbs approach 1ctuar1 y - his_ - tr ans points is not the 11titm- el d He lmCN'S Yer very litt - b the Dlil itar rt d o oa o uRUE i'llElh ' H is oo ot p ' lJNDEa SW o o o _ vie AD _ DAVIS 1lllludi j o o o Refs p-obab best t s lling Mr Bowie had a point DEP UtmER SmY WRPBI i 5 C o Hmm t Tha 's what I WC U 14 sqo ' S V meet ot Ootoper did you aqt MR BCUIE A piperoa i BurOl le called for a certain al out the o o s uay_to o wMre - o o o o o oo o o - o o - - - - - o oo o o o b _submitted b7 the 28th to take care - o o l o the i m l a1d cl Ml 1n tlle BSO - _ _ - __ -- o 1 o - o o o o or the_ case oo pa ooulchi ot be carrie4 through One was tar a stuey how rapidly we should oo I o oo o t- proceed to try t set npecit10 camitmen s tor OW all es ' o - - - - _ o o _ - o oo o o o o - o oo o - - ooo o ' o - o t - - -- - --- - -29- - - I think t Oeneral Gruonthcr said would be b lt 'ul ill o that comiect1on Oil the 1tecia ve ot ' extent the tad states _J'eq dred I t 't o o o ' o o studied io to vhat tOl Ullll ogreement per- ' o td tting the' use ot m lear veap011S o PressiJla su ih tormal - ' ment1S we' d ocloiou 9ly iC1 air cl lie u plans t l i aed ' atrite1r1 scr ie of th'li tl iini s you so id bear that o - on ' mm EUEHl B SB 11eu I aey a1 i t-m viev ie _ ' o - ' -atrang that it'a sot to so along a bit 10 l'et bl n - o _ _' rather o o l o o o o oo t i o o - I visu uize moet ot tbe people vho have been dco li ns ' Vith ' ' o o o oJ oo oo o oo o ' 0 o 1 ' o o ' 'olo_o o 0 o o o l o o 0 o o o o the aubJect here a difference o t feel o I feel there ia opinion on t1l ling that is rather different aignitioa at ' o divisians bet -een vb et I t lt and the l lanners vbo have o' - - o - been working on it here o -- ' _ 0 o o o o oo ' -- o ' o o o o o - - ' o ' I cl c lso wi nt to br illz out tho po Joe s o o o o o o - trocii t1 e contr9i The o o o o o oo o o -1 o oo I' JIO'W One 1 those J i i in ba'- b i Jt o ' o tbe -o We are operating baaeo or tvo c_ountriee right other tbo u I The 'i'l lnni 'thing ois tbat you involve e risk iii t risk if this thing takes placo o o o an_c e ce ses I thin - ve 're soina to get tbe appro-ral wry quickly t o lauiicb or iy ottockzl that come trom their _real estate How you solve it on over-tligb te and whether or not you plunge_ into 6J otomic war you ll sht follO I tbe advice of th is _ o go ahead IUld drop thca c nd expJ a 1ll later or maybe it r f -- o o o J o oo - --- I o o - oo t - f ' - - -- - - - - - - ' - - - o -- -- - _-_-- -_-- - __ - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - o L - r 30- - batter to discU3a it but that 1e the advice of the Strangely en0 l8h there ws not a great deal after he ce mi t'orth Vi th that on that - ot difficulty uniqll s est1on VICE AIM DAVISs Everybody agrees we OUght to do it f t b on the other hand wa don't w - 1 - - o oo _ o I o o o-- _ oo ' ooI - o o o o - c e l 'o o - o o o o o ' ' ' _j o o - - o o oo - ' ' ' 'o I ' 'o' o o o _ - there udgb t be some ape-oi rio 001 1t1ent - - ' develop - o 4 a litt 1 e bit mbre the phil 'tf i -th6 iilt ti - - _ - - - - _ - - o1- o - - _ ' l i - aiR LOPER t hou1d-11ke to o e - ttems I thhi k th1 e - di cU ision hns pro i a Uy l m d -1 ci1o but o o - yonde r 1t e ey o c-1 i10 c ts o - o oo o o o o o o any or the poittts J n o t o ris k o e mio o' o ' c - - o I - I o o o o o en 1n the 1 TO io -- - e sed _i n tba o o o o pape- o Just to_ wat oo oo i o o ls _ - o o o o o ' o - ello- r o o this tegrat 1on contet Plated n o ssari-'beok here to 1 nsui-e at least o ooo o o Md o'bat ure1J ar - ooo 'I - _ oo _ - - 't a legal o uthority t' 'bzit e gr t1 1 - V1UE ADM DAVISf What does integration mean o o first of all r I o LOPJ i t Yes o l g MAJ - ' o ' I o - t o o ' COLLDlS - Al 9 you want to talk about that GBI or want 1m to'l - 4 -- ' l ' gEU - Gm1EN'mER J ' o o oo o o o o o' - - Were you asking him a quest1cm o - o - o ' ' o --- - Ir - -31- VICE ArM DAV1S J I think be wante to lmw t'irat of all vhat does this word integration mean GEN GRUENT BEth Before r d 'E At thio -- I am willing to take a shot at are you tal fng about legal utbority f' Iooo 1 o 0 Doc MJ J OEN LOPER o It first hsa to do Y1 th be exchange of_information Whether the areas of exchange or - in format 's et ' f'orl - h e by i 'l'O are goi ng t be -- -C te for integre tion as me by- this paper t 1 m r 't q st1on o ' - I st a rted this so aion end you see lthether you agree or - ' d is e-'bece u e we th1 terut integration and the - use 0 e c e e the 1'U st time it is used in - the document says T ' be able t carr out ' certairi ta a _it is necei sary to do ce 1n and one or these t 1 1t b d for ea in being in Europe whi - - _ voili - e ca bie ri oti ly contributing to - That - of success in the initial _phase o _ is 'the pbase dur1 Jl8 w'hich there'd beoa rapid exchfmge ' o # o at6mic e p by - e tvo sides -- ''end _ prev ting the rapid overrmmillg of - _Europe -do th 1 s these forces must be b1_gbly - -32 trained mobile have an inteiP'_a t d atomic ca pa - ' In bility and be properly pooiti ed 1n depth ' this respect the importance o'f obtaining a German o contribution to these forces cannot be too strongly etnph as bed 11 In a footn te we oaid the o bilit to integrato -- by int ted atOlllic capabllitt' we meant the ability to integrate the delivery of ntom1c weElpons vith the delivery of present-type apon s This involvee an ilrtegrated int lligence i ystem ' communications e nd tactical doc ine There vas a good deal of discuasion whether va bad aey 1dea o o o o o # o o I o o o' o of turning j eepen s over to the French British Ital Greeks for deliveey That was not our i ea A no ima bas e nyane of' the non -U s people that wrked on the develop mmt o of this paper a iggcist d e ey silch thhlg o o - _ oo - Qenera1 o o o - o o o o o o # 0 oo o o o tm1 guns o o o I ot in the British a roe in 'Wh1Ch three or more bsttalions 280 oo aruenther has just recently bad a' -maneuver 11o w - pa -t1c1pe ted and they played _tbroueh inamible These Yeapons oand oomperable veapona in Our' judgment _ that _ o o ' I o o is the J O the StandiDg Gr n - will ve to be ple ead under the control of non-U perscxnnel they vould be assigned o crbat i the support perhaps of 1 he 1st Arrrry is the British Arta or they them 'lldght be wich I SOl Ue of - - - -33- assigned to support the French 1 o to the south but they ArrtI J would be in the personnel completely bands -of United Sto tes - - - Hovever tbe t visualize it is that General orueirl he t S U at to h upport 0GBP the st Arrirs o o o - l o - o so vec pons for certain eral purposes Nov - a iybody bas e ny idea that Gene al oruenthar or any other 0 perscm 'in hia poa li 1 -o9U d gi immediat - BPPl'OVs l p nd _ - -- o pc cifio ppr - o ' o - oo o - ' I o o shell I - ' or fire t o o o J t1me ou vanted to s hoot an atpudo - o o o ''- - o o o ar deltwr 'an atomo pan - by fighter bomberli -ha' s just cnldng the 1mpoas1bie _-It o o o o o o o o o ' o o o o - _ can't be done not in opinion t I o o That's vbat ve me i - _ _ _ - eJ ea--a c- apa1 ili - - s things ca i_ crv the o I - -guid _d missile ff _ _ _ _ - ' o ' best -t cti ncnr o o o oo o o _ w a re talJdng about It oo o o GBPl toa r e t o - I everybody-'imderstand o how o - o to use them the selection of targets 'ffhe t is a good ta get _ - JPY o vhat is not a good target the timing logistical bus iness oo o- o ' o and ' ' a u tbat o o o i oo o o o ts thorougbly understood that' a o - o we all by an intesrated atoinic ca bility 11 We d1dn 't want t o -write that all down so did it 1n three 11nes The t i s the t in 1 r et state o e cou i d do o I _ VICE ADM DAVlB page one I think ths t 'o a good on 7o Whmi you asked the question OEN GBUEBHUillo was the lesal aspect adequate I presume you vere ret inl o o' o _ J o a o o o - o l o o J o o - oo 1 - -' ' - oo 1 -1 - - -34- o to the agreement Which ia going to be submitted to this -Congressi 'committee an 3 January - stion Is tbe t vhat i s ct i-tc t 'l - as wFEEti I MAJ GEN 'would think illdi a ted in - o theoe l apers it intended this vould cover e ll HA TO o o I - - nations GEN cmt 1Eifm ERi You are referring to whatt oo MAJ o o f o o ' 1 _ - o of information to the exchange o - That a ppliee to -a11 KATO _ ' - - _ - nations In addition c rta1n bilateral agreementa might o I ' GEN o Agreemc mt With the c tt 1e I ' be required for those nations with greater teohn cal 1mov o o_ o o ' 1 ho r oncl graaier capability in t bat connection I It grat -- - ' ' -oo oo o o o O O - oo t ' ' oo - - - o i J - o o o - O O 4 o 0 o oo ' r oo o o' l would t it would be along o I ' ' - - GEN I - ' o _ - o 1 o but it m$ sht -be in fOJ'ID8 tj o n which we would -lilra io g 1 ve to - _ hem If ' ' J- - - - w 1 n l -- 1ie t the d 11 - ' - - f t rr - e nation o er - ' o _ o o tt in o d sires 'to ce rey tM b0111b it we gi _-tliat 1nforme tton ' - tbat is im'ormat1on not necessary- to 't he rest of the na t1oris tbo t line that the development vQU d cQmG o- _ - _ - _ Mr rnst 1a in Paris' stiii and ho is working with - o o Ol U s-t af f on some BiJggestiana far iuq roving this I at least o our views on li yau might 'ClOre nearly meet so -require meats that ve bave 1 o oo o o _ o o o o o oo I - o ' o I ' ' oo' o o i w - q'24 t1 wethe not - - I _ ' ' o r o oo - o o th Brit1 li get specif'io intormtion it is my idea it vould be a bio lateral one - I don't kn wh lt they ' re doinG ab fixing n011 those bomb b s _MAJ o LOJIERi 'J 1heY''re not supposed to be_ atting information enough to do it o I don't knew how they'd do it QEN GRtJENTmms - They'r - pend ins enough dcrugh ADM o J AVISi VICE - _ - thing - I o t o o o ape aa 'a tr s n sent ti - ihe ' 'Join-EUR'chiets ot Statt o - a i epreeentative oi' t U o o o o o J o o o o o I have no e uthor ty to spealc tor t o them d oJ in no s e as o t wsl in general agree t wi h rai I - d o o ans e an this o Stand tns QroUP o - QPlN o COLLIE s ' rbere 'o one other o able oi take o They're certainly a sl mpse ot our bomber over _thereo Gruenther I ws - o ' o o o o ' ' I am not sure Admiral Radford or the Chi _ f's would the viev a ener -G her t I o' i o i _ o o o ' o - tould not say thei don't aupp rt - - - tt I don't - kncnr o I am o n ot the tellow to determine that The point of view about fully agr - th i I o epe ot doinQ this sort ' of t o o -and necessity of getting ahead -- that - - rhe Chiefs 414 agree however with 'this - ' __ _ -- m od1fioat1an ot t s paragraph and _ J iminati fioai -- _ _ ' this parasraph of the speoitic reference to Artiole V - _that ext mt _ - s - ment t --t 1 - t ti e s o -o o o - o o - I ' - have given f le truotions and ha v the - o o o o _ 'oot o - o ' ' o - t ro o o o o o ' _ - o - ' o - o J _8Pg Ii1 1 o - 1 - l TOP SEGHEI -36not iU ogress too rapidJ 1 I wanted to make clear I how-evor I am not competent_to speak tor th Joint Chiefs 1n this matter - - o r ' ' the story Do you 9' - icuJ tf - b tuture - ' o the tact that we will have_a a1tUBt1on th the NATO neighbors vtll be 'Wh lly_ -depende - ato ea - will b t - o o -' - 1n sole c rol c t -those - rea 'l - rfllll_- ' o o GEN OR0EtfrBERf I aee cODSiderabl trouble c o o oo o ' ' 1 - o o o 4 o 'What 1s -- uP if' you move ahead eare -- I don't know thems 1ves o o o o o to atomic we aP D S in the fairly ear Mure o ' o o __ o _ o 'GEN - o o o #' o o ' - I o ' C o o I oo o oo o ' Is that not also the a_oncept the Fr oh are beg1m 1 ns to get o o ' ' AMS 'AIJ RICR - ' iawmi Eitmf tb1nk SOJ I think viihout Oh 1 - o ' o C - 'Ir - _ _ - t o-- - - ' - - - - - ' ' -37earlier b ause a - en ch ha an atomic 1nstallaticn il leir cnm 'now o ' - o 'o _ ' I - o - '- i o o oo o - l o o - -- _ or _ t o I - o t - - ' _- o - _ '' - io ' o -- - o - ' o o - - ' - _ - o - - J o 1- o - - - o ' - '- - - ' ' ' 7 oI o - - - I - o _ ' o r o - I o o _ o - - o o - i - o i o o - - ' - - _ - -- - ' t ' t oo 'I o 'o - - - - - - ' -o _ oo l o o o J --' - - ' o o o _ - - - - - _ t ' - - ' _ - _ ' - o - ' __ _ - - - - ---- - -- --- -- _ - - F 'f - - - - AMS ALmUOH _They had t t in mind in tb e London c0l lferet2Ce and trying to get out tr n under _t he limi tation that vu discussed under sure t 1 414 - - - o r - o ' now the oon t that Jul -bave d mloped by that time oom- ' ' ' d o vb at ve are 41aauaaillg o # o o o he vill be th uis o o o o ' 1ns _ b ova and - that ve were ' - - from Of e- urgii th tT 1t tAn years C ' 2 M'l' ' R Brussels Pact I am IGBPP lJlGEB - -- MOitGBP91 I vonder 1t o - - _ 0 r - - - o nw get - - ' - _ - - ' o o Way' o ' trail these t o ve couian't i tems eoii tionai i unco - - ventional _ I never have quite i'ollowd the logic back of J _ GEW QlulEJrrmms I think t- o a sood point triea - ob Nobcdi 7et an -ob has been able to come up _ with _a brief aet o vords dono t you see tl iat can convey the idea _ to what Mr l3ov1e said the apec ie - point t t yati raised was raiaed bf the hen ch at one _ o t the_ Going back standing Grou_p meetings and it was raised by Oen Stehlin v o msde l Oi that since i wa appe rentl1 inevitab - ' that then vould be a close integration oi' atanic t11e ao-ca11ea co nventtbnal weapons V8apons and anc1 e1nce th'e United States had a monopal an the weapons that aa things atomic ' - - - I oo ' o o o ' -o o - - o o oo o _ - -I -- I - - - o o - - - 1 L -' i oo 39 upon an integrated s ratem that 1n tact the d$tense or Europe would be dependent upon the United_Stateso decision whether to uae tlieae veapons or not to uee them d that there o o I I - o o tore this a till vaa a question in the minds ot the rrench o about lb ther the ahould have som ' sey in th ta o - ul I I j t o c n' t - ' - -- -- it o'- ' w ' I ' oo - 11 I ' kind ot 4 aeenia to me that the thing tbat 11 concerning you is whether o o - r _-_ - o 1 _ - o o o t o o at the last minute the United States should ae y 'We are not _ t - _ - _ o - ' going to use these weapons ' X -add I 1uat can't fm81ne - w would be a pending the mone1 on tbeae things that to Europe ' - o ' are doiDg and camitting our tore ea ' it we c11anot tend to usa these wee pons and tbat endel tho - o that cliacuea 1 on ' I o o 1 o o I - o VICE AIM - VIS I o o o o oo ' What they wan tbough 1 __is _not only a voto on our use but authority to order us -1 -- o o o o o o o them oo COLLIWS_ one too o o oo o o ot o - o ' o f o Perhap1 but I dOn't take that last oortousl y o I - I o - - o o o ' _ - - ' ' o o - -o o 'II t o I - o - - -- - -_ __ - --- o 5 gz j o o o ' --- o ' ' - o Something alcmg that line 1s GO GliUEJtl BBlu c01Zling an4 take a countr like Turkey n you see they -- - _ t -b it 1-o- o -- - o - cane aromi4 and aak -evar y now and then I vonder 1 t we z t c - 1 They' to Jaiov exactq wat 1s bittbg them 79t b ba ven't J gun o o o t t o o4 hoy c n see thoee terms ot amnion bec use o t _ a cric c 0 1 ' end t ic r - rill think of - - 9 c oo Progreaai 1o behls GEJt' o CO c tlM3 Guided missile ' mde-e p1n to reinforce what Gen Gruent Jer said earl ier-41 aouaa o that t 1n -the with Norvagians ld alao i ' her ha4 - erscmaUJr th - the Danes this queation bas ariaen about_their relative _daf'enseleeanese and the tact that nab is going to defan4 Wo ezoept Norwegians ar to detend o f O o o 0 'I f o 0 I 0 Denmark and I bATe rmde 1 he point -- o o ' o ' o o o o o o ' ' o t o o I sai O I 0 are 0h ycu o 0 ' abo -that '-because unquest1cmabl7 _ __ 1 said I o o oo _1 o o ' oo can't say 4efin1tely but uriqueat10D blf the United States o o oo o o o o o o o oo o o o o # o ' atrategio Air Peirce v ill t ke aotion whicih v11l oter ' _ t - _ - _ a4d to the- dat particular ot Jioi q o ' ' o Wov they used to that ' _tbe t so oi thing get - long wqs -irl U I thi go a o o ot this o o o I tow rd gradual aa ptance w o 1a ea pe ri1cu1 ar1 y tt o o t _ o o o o' ha lmUle rs in - ' t the1e a_pona _ are used t o vbich ' ' oo on u tn'JBER i w t - o ask t would -thbig ' like to get olarit1ed 1n 'tlfl min here X b ve adopted tn 'lll1' -- -o a poliq vbioh-- o t talk oil thia aubJeot js a o o o o o o o o o o o o o ' o ' - ' -r o - o o - o o o I o -- o o - f l - o o - oo o -o _ ' ' '_- - t o f -- ' o i t I o -- - - - oo - o o Ill ' o - o ' - o -o 'o ' o o-r - ' -- ------ - - - - ' -- r - 'I o _Jo r -- -- -- -_ ' ' - t ' I - t - - _ _ _ _ 0 vrH i ' ' 4 o o ' Nov there can be a difference at Opinion lb ther good id9a - - idea or not I mn persO lAl l3' convi1lced that 1a a good that ' but I ' vaa told ot the it is a good 1dee J that at a aeting SOcurity Coum U here a couple of ontba as tha t tb9re ' ' - o _ _ a contrary viev expressed and certainly 1t that is so I am out or etep Are rou avare that tbere 1s a contrary o viev ASST 81 CY HENSEL I am avare ot t Se t r CoUllCU m ttng tbat you spoke or 1sn1 t qu1to ns cleo r c s We understand that it bad he 1t end I am tr -ill8 to V' l run that down ' I see aim tmUElhiiER I don't wnt to -- o o o JPY di _ot ' 'Wallt to the ettect that vs I maan t a o f oo o ooo -- o _ s MR - t t attect o oom o to a ra r '- _ ' ' o- o t ba h _to - - o ' _ 0 '1'h N have been several etatementa _to o o o -we sh uldn't be 1n o mm -x th_inlt_ - ' o_ -- tnm but in the meantime -- o to be atomic rn tling t - pro ably cted 41 tterent ' ' o a comment o MR OOWIE I von4er vhetber that waan ot o - o the' position o i' appoar - _ cons to tbreaten e rybody vith the atan But' t hat ta o l ' a different problem - ' i _ I think - - GEN OI OS N'l'Hltlh Yes I just wanted to be o X_- ' - o - o o' - - - - _ o- vasn't wt r t' atep -ruo - - ' - - - - - - ' - o ' I i - l - oo I - o o t -l - l l L o o 42 GEN COLLINS The amazing thing to me __ - thcugn Al 1a that none these a tatements or yours have hit the press _ You have ot -said tbnt _ - -- t ' it ws ott tl a rocor vhari you - _t4l k d to them did rouf tro Giffl Gll l'dm R GEN COLLIRS Yet it hasn't come into the press yet heaW r sqing 'Gen Wo 'haven't o - n o G usnth - S id t - yestel 'dq tmt- the vUl be used immedia - atoldo - weapons _ - ' r - o o -o whether the s tans use them or not Bew 1s it that hasn't ha nsdf You sa7 that oft the record here in Waab 1 ngton em I a you that 1t will be 1n the hoa4J 1nes the n ctq QBOfsiriRt 1U JIOV'lmtr I -haven't been - oo record on it at all GEN COLLIN'S 7011 vere a ng this being the case _Al aa ame to nor mind You say that o ' ot o said We M' er understood his before - o o o this thou sht o people _b ave Now 1GBP 1t is o o o J o ' 4 o _ j l o o o _ _ o _ o o o o 1 o o o ' wuld be better -- I em not sure - t hat 1t baa ved yet - - 1'hat a e _ the t wu i _come 1fben p rhapa small good on a ' thins t is tbe amazill8 # - - o - wliich ve do publioq a_q bat oo think vould ' o - - o r _ e- - - tar- brce d er o -- 1-f' c o Ca3 1 o o C OM 1s a matter that I do o o o o - oo o o- o r o or vorj careful co 14eratton _bu -J r r o o t o o o I o o - ' ' o ' I _ o4 o I ee y that it hun't gotten into the preaa got in tbs press o - 1n DG' talk in LoJJdon on June 8th I did say this I - _ -d1dn't all ov up a n4 we v1li use it vb ether the Soviets e it or ' not I clic n't 8153 it that but t ea14 In it GEN GRtlElffl EB In U lt I o the event active 86SNH1on ve at our Bee dquarten - liGve thit tomio wn vill have to be uae4 W are not the who malm policy o o - o o ' our po1107_-- ro - y -1 - -ovvrule us on tbat but I voul 4 like to _have you knov mat o I - f o o we th1llk about 1i o o o o o o - oo o o o o o o - o o I I I o o o 0 I I got 3l letters on -that 9 'venty-eeven _ o o o i ot tbam o o were a X'able tour of t b1m were ldavorabie two' ot them - - 3 ' o - v-1 0110 end o 1gne4 by X-or t or oOIDl9th1ns - o - oo- _ o t o o o o i - - - o- One c 4 - tbsni 1o still c after Dll I o o o J o o o o o- like -t hat Littlehearte ia o o oo -o attei me LitUehea rte tbinlal that I o o 0 -- o tbe it 1o Vl'OlJSo ' - -- - - _- --- _ o _ isi tnUmt -SIJCt o IJRfflff It 1e a good l eeult at ' _ ' - _ _ oo o -o r oo o oo _o ' - a dem1c cliaeuaston a t tbe bombtcg ot open cities ve had b tore World War II wan't it right o _ oo o o o pretty well I VD' ADM Dlv td i x vonder I o o - __ o - - 111 _ o o o 1t we r _ oo a meettns ot tbs m1ll4 e hero o J o o oo - o -Y q general egreeme4t to - o o o o 1 I o I t o o j I h venot bad It o o -- o aeems to to ' mi i so abed an the - euov _ paper e n4 So ahead a a ut as i oo atble on the cliaclosuro ' ' - ot d' t1 t ed 4 on't 40 to te ce o - 't here_ u - _ _ _ IA'l f' ri - or -u w poe1t ve clt Oteton o o o I o I o o o o - ' o - - w- - o 1 - o ' - u sg 011 thin1t the ti ' l3 is r e In ti1 J la 1 - 3 tr r to create the proper climat Isn't th t just about the $U - mation o o l 1 this Gemral concurrence W3 indicated State' e View exc9 t w have not discm sed th' s in any detail vith the Secretary Nov I am not ouro vhetber you VICE ADM M VIS You know wry -well Adm Radtord's J Bd9 aey comr ent or not viewo as to our boasting on this instead of hitting vi th a hatm l8r I think thia has got to be m Alt ADM Am E RSOrT refarred to the Chiefs ASST SSCY 1Jl i little nods back he re and Chief's to maka surt l they W'9 eat H's ha re a3 r9- exehs uged vUl gst out e memo to the it S lbject to tbe t it B-90lll 'l to me VICE ADM n VIS we have pretty i-tall cleaned t _p the problem 4 43 o o o The i oet adjol il i 1e l at p o 1 o o o o -- o _ __ o ' o - o o -- - J I -4 J - o ' _ -- Joo ' -o - o o __ _ - N I o o This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu