JFK Tape 104 A401 August 15 1963 11 00 a m – Oval Office President Kennedy and Henry Cabot Lodge Jr 00 04 144 2 Lodge …they’re all going to be assassinated her daughter Madame Nhu son-in-law— Nhu and the president—Diem And she said “ unclear they’re all going to be assassinated I don’t think there’s any question about it ” The only hope they have is to get out And she said “I hope you ” Lodge “will advise them to get out ” Kennedy She doesn’t think it can be saved—is that it Lodge No It cannot be saved And she said “if you’ve advised them to go out and they refuse to take your advice let me know and I will come out and try to talk with my daughter Now this daughter Madame Nhu has always been violent and impossible and—not cra—not stupid but— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —but crazy Kennedy Unclear 1 FRUS 1961-1963 Volume III Vietnam January-August 1963 describes the meeting as follows “Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge met with President Kennedy on August 15 1963 from 11 to 11 35 a m at the White House Kennedy Library President’s Log Book No record of their discussion has been found Lodge subsequently recalled that when he met with President Kennedy on this occasion he found the President ‘very much concerned by what was going on in Vietnam He referred particularly to the famous Associated Press picture of the Buddhist monk Quang Duc burning himself alive I suppose that no news picture in recent history had generated as much emotion around the world as that one had President Kennedy referred to that picture to the overall importance of Vietnam and to what was going on in Saigon—to the fact that apparently the Diem government was entering a terminal phase He also mentioned the extremely bad relations that the Embassy had with the press He said “I suppose that these are the worst press relations to be found in the world today and I wish you personally would take charge of press relations ”’ See https history state gov historicaldocuments frus1961-63v03 d254 The FRUS volume in question was published in 1991 Public knowledge of the Kennedy taping system existed since at least 1982 when Kennedy’s personal secretary Evelyn Lincoln disclosed existence of the system in a Newsweek interview The recordings were deeded to the Kennedy Library in 1976 The recording of this meeting was released to the public in 2009 2 The following transcript was prepared by Luke A Nichter According to emails and conversations between the author and archivists at the Kennedy Library during December 2016 the conversation has never been published or transcribed The recording begins while the conversation is in progress An unknown portion was not recorded Lodge begins with a summary of his conversation with Than Thi Nam Tran – wife of the Vietnamese Ambassador to the U S and mother of Madame Nhu Lodge had dinner with South Vietnam’s Ambassador to the United States Tran Van Chuong and his wife at 8 00 p m on August 14 1963 at the Vietnamese Embassy Lodge knew Madame Tran Van Chuong from her time as South Vietnam’s observer at the United Nations which coincided with Lodge’s role as U S Permanent Representative to the UN during the Eisenhower administration 1 Lodge Right And violent and willful— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —and angry When she was here in Washington a couple of years ago she took an overdose of sleeping pills and they had to pump out her stomach She’s just been a terrible trial to both of them always She says that she talks like this and a lot of them talk like this—because Diem and Nhu this is what they really think and they like to hear her talking like this— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —which is quite revealing Kennedy Is she a Buddhist—this woman Than Thi Nam Tran Lodge Oh yes She’s a Buddhist and she’s a very devout one And Madame Nhu was born a Buddhist and then— Kennedy Became Catholic Lodge —a convert I don’t know how good of a Catholic she is anyway Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge For the record Kennedy She’s political She’d put a lot of the church unclear laughs Lodge laughs That’s right That’s right And this is highest upper level so I thought you’d want to know that Kennedy Yeah Lodge As a matter of fact that happened to me last night Now I’ve got to do a press conference when I arrive in Saigon and I want to just submit to you some of the answers—you see she’s already taken a crack at me—Madame Nhu Kennedy I heard that Yeah Lodge And I thought if I was asked about that I’d just say no comment Kennedy Yeah 2 Lodge My view is she is a private citizen She holds no political—no office If I meet her well she’s just a private citizen that I meet And then if I get a question on U S —what is the U S policy—has there been a change in the policy I thought I would say the policy of the United States is to help the Republic of Vietnam to win and maintain their independence from the—from communist territories Kennedy Yeah Lodge Whatever helps that we are for whatever is against that we are against Kennedy Yeah Good Lodge Put it that way— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —and not leave the impression that there has been a change Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge And another question I think they’ll give me is do you think we can win with Diem which will be about the roughest question I can get Kennedy Yeah Lodge You always try to think of the rough ones— Kennedy Yeah Lodge I know you have experience with that My position will be we will win with the Republic of Vietnam— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —along with everybody in it That’s about— Kennedy Right Lodge —what I wanted to submit to you And then when I see him Diem I want to face with him—when I have a chance to talk with him—this may be over several meetings I can’t do it all at once—would be “I want you to be successful We want you to win—help you every way that I can We understand that you don’t want to be a puppet of the United States ” Dean Rusk would like to hear me say that we don’t want to be a puppet of Vietnam— Kennedy Yeah Yeah 3 Lodge —which we don’t want to be a tail of Mrs Nhu’s kite Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge Because many Americans think that she is the head of Vietnam Kennedy Right Lodge I had a fellow stop me in Beverly the other day and—right on the street—and he said “who is this Madame Nhu the head of Vietnam ” He’d seen her picture on the cover of Time you know and—and then I thought I would try to get the point across to him that he thinks he has us hooked but nobody can hook the United States of America Because nobody can hook U S public opinion and nobody can hook the U S Congress Kennedy Yeah Lodge And while the president’s will is good the president’s power is not unlimited Kennedy That’s right Lodge And I’m not sure if he realizes that So those are things I wanted to get across Kennedy Because he thinks that the press out there is really—you read Roger Hilsman’s memorandum Lodge Oh yes Oh yes Kennedy Well you know how they can get in those places They are—they feel they’re doing the job because they’re trying to get rid of—they’re carrying out a political action to get rid of Diem because they would argue it is the only way they can win I will say that two years ago they said they were going to collapse in six months so their record of prophecy is not that good And in addition you know they’re a lot of fellows who haven’t had that much experience A lot of them have been out there a year or so—have been you know they’re not the first line unclear About one day after I got that word about their being roughed up out there we have the story about the American press being roughed up by the police in Rome Well that wasn’t anything I was there and they weren’t roughed up So I mean you know how the reporters are— Lodge I know I was one of them Kennedy —you know and—they don’t—so that we do have a problem with them I mean that fellow—New York Times fellow David Halberstam I guess he’s a bright fellow just wrote a story about we’re losing the war and having unclear days 4 There’s a real clique—you’re going to have a difficult time maintaining a satisfactory relationship with them because they are this— Lodge Mr President I plan— Kennedy —a lot of them unclear Lodge —there are three key ones AP UPI and New York Times They’re the only three there every day— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —from the United States And they’re frightened They’ve been frightened by the Vietnamese police Kennedy Yeah Lodge They’re really afraid physically They’re mostly sick—got dysentery—they think they’ve been lied to and they have been condescended to socially by some our embassy people—I’m not really sure The very first day I’m going to invite one of them to lunch along with my wife and me and I’m going to ask him to be quiet Next day I’m going to ask the second one The third day I’m going to ask the third one We’ll get it right like that at a time that I’m too fresh for them to expect to get anything out of me— Kennedy Yeah Yeah Yeah Lodge —and try to at least get them into a human frame of mind Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge Of course they must know that I am not going to be a terribly good news source but at least I’m not going to lie to them And anything—they can always come in and see me And anything that they’re entitled to get I’ll move heaven and earth to be sure that they get it Kennedy The time may come though we’ve gotta just have to try to do something about Diem and I think that’s going to be an awfully critical period Lodge Oh yes Kennedy I don’t know how well prepared you are for that out there or who we would sort of support or who we would—and—I think that’s going to be the key—your key problem this year This woman’s right You don’t see other situations that go on without disintegrating unclear information It may be that they ought to go but 5 it’s just a question of how quickly that’s done and if you get the right fellow who— Lodge She said that she is the first—to me last night—that the type of unclear we had in Iraq in 1958 Kennedy Yeah Lodge Remember when we killed Nuri al-Said and all that Well I’ve got to—and by the way I want to thank you for the wonderful help and support I’ve had here in the government—this office… 38 seconds classified Kennedy …because we don’t want to make with them—it’s a great temptation to leave the press to do what we did with Chiang You know by the—Chiang Kaishek was so pasted by American reporters and American public opinion was formed that it was hopeless—well maybe it was hopeless But looking back on it I think probably we would think that we probably could have as bad as it was it would have been much better off if we had done something about it I assume the situation would be hopeless but I—and I am also conscious of the fact that the American press and our government wherever they are on this including here and I just want to be sure that there is somebody who would be better than this fellow Diem After all he has sustained himself against the French and essentially against us but that’s not so much but against the French and then against the Vietcong and did it for ten years That’s a pretty good record So I don’t like to see us just to decide that unclear would be better just because we’re getting heat from the press I don’t know enough about it but I do remember that all our people always seem to get pasted— Lodge That’s right Kennedy —Thailand Chiang got it in South Korea—everybody we’re for always is a son of a bitch Lodge That’s right Kennedy So I think that you have to make an independent judgment of it Lodge You’ve got the good about Diem He’s very courageous Kennedy Yeah Lodge Physically courageous He’s got a lot of stamina And he has never said “you do this for me or I’ll go over to the communists ” 6 Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge He’s never ever done that Now there aren’t too many men like that in the Far East—maybe there are some others And if so then it’s my job to try to find them There aren’t too many men that are like that And that’s what Harriman thinks Rusk has got to the point where he says anybody other than Diem Kennedy Yeah Lodge Well I think the vice president is worse than Diem from what I understand Kennedy Yeah Lodge Tho—He’s worse There are some men—there’s a labor leader that George Cabot Lodge knows—my son George knows— unclear who’s the head of the rice growers union who is—everybody says is a top fellow superior—that kind of a fellow But you can be a top fellow and still not be— Kennedy Unclear to do— Lodge —but politically—what it takes you know Kennedy He has I say going to that I just you know everybody always—everybody gets attacked—you remember all that stuff about Greece at the end of the war You know when the communists really almost took over Greece you know Lodge Yeah Kennedy And all that was written in the American press was the fascist nature of the Greek government So I don’t think there’s any doubt that the press are instinctively—a lot of them are liberal and some very—and they harry against any authoritarian regime they unclear Then there’s the—so I don’t know—I’ve never—I assume that probably this fellow’s Diem’s in an impossible situation to save but I just want to be sure we’re not getting our policy made for us by a couple of smart young reporters Lodge Of course their viewpoint at the time—they’re looking at a story—they’re looking at something sensational And they’re not—they don’t realize that an authoritarian government is what the people have always had in most parts of the world Kennedy That they have to have it’s just that there really isn’t anybody else to run it—just this bitch Madame Nhu of course She’s made it—she’s made it—well as I say I think we have to leave it almost completely in your hands and your judgment I don’t know whether we’d be better off—whether the alternative would be better 7 Maybe it will be If so then we have to move in that direction But I think I’d take a good look at it before I come to that conclusion Lodge Yeah Because if— Kennedy Nolting’s always felt that Diem was better than anybody— Lodge Yeah Kennedy —than we can get Now everybody says Diem was—says that Nolting was soft and Diem was unclear That maybe however been the right policy— Lodge It very well may have Kennedy —two years ago everybody was saying we’re all through out there in six months And you know then we’re— unclear coming out that we’d have to put American troops in there but Nolting said no he thought it would be alright So I just figure that we don’t want to get carried away until you’ve had a good chance to look at it Lodge Well— Kennedy OK Lodge —that’s very helpful That’s very helpful I’ll certainly give it my very best I— Kennedy How does your wife like going out there It’s genuinely the most interesting assignment that there is Lodge Oh it’s the most interesting assignment in the government I think Kennedy Yeah Lodge Well she’s all for it When you— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —very kindly offered it to me I went and asked her and she said yes we’ve got to do it Kennedy Yeah Lodge She’s coming out with me on Saturday Kennedy Yeah 8 Lodge And she’s looking forward to it very much And I think there’s a lot she can do Kennedy Yeah Lodge We have a big American community there And some of them I think are a little bit scared— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —afraid of diseases and being shot at So I think there’s a lot she can do to pull the American community together which I’m planning to do Kennedy When will you get there Lodge Well I’m taking about a week because I’m going to— Kennedy Go to Hawaii Lodge I’m going to Hawaii and get briefed by Admiral Felt And then they want me to— the foreign minister of Japan wanted me to call on Tokyo so I’m going to do that and then Dean Rusk wanted me to get the briefing by the consulate general in Hong Kong on the situation in communist China— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —so I won’t get there for a little over a week Kennedy Right Lodge And I’ve allowed to do that because there’s a sleep adjustment—it’s a twelvehour difference in time— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —and the day I arrive is the—the first day in a thing like this is a very big day— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —and all the people that are trying to embarrass you are out in full force I don’t want—I want to feel fairly good Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge You know the sleep business— Kennedy Yeah 9 Lodge —I want to feel fresh when I get there so that when they talk about me I can throw a few back laughs Kennedy No that sounds fine Lodge I’m—I’d like to see this PL 480 aid that’s distributed through voluntary charitable organizations distributed through Buddhists—some Buddhist organizations They run orphanages and refugee camps and all that sort of— Kennedy Do we give them any now Lodge No Kennedy Just American— Lodge American Catholics Mennonites and unclear And I think it would give me a— give us some leverage If we can do it it’ll make us popular with the Buddhists If the government objects that it’s an interference in internal affairs I can ask Diem to ask the Buddhists to name somebody and make him do something for us so that we won’t give it to him Kennedy Yeah Lodge But I’m going to get some leverage with this man Diem I think he thinks he’s got us on the hook too much So I wanted to tell you about that And then I’d like to see a map which I’ve never seen—has never been made—black and white map no colors—showing the area of the Vietcong domination two years ago and the areas today—a sort of map the kind I used to get made when I was at the UN It could be printed it in any ordinary newspaper and you can see the progress Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge I think that would be helpful here and helpful there too I think the public relations haven’t been as good as the results justify Kennedy I noticed the way that fellow Halberstam in the Times wrote it this morning about—he talked about the last year not the last two months but the war in the Delta has been going bad for the last year Did you read the story this morning Lodge Yes Kennedy I don’t—that was a more ominous report than the ones we’ve been getting from Harkins Harkins he’s done an outstanding job but this story seemed to paint a pretty black picture in the Delta 10 Lodge Well if—if this Buddhist thing keeps on it’s bound to get in the army eventually Kennedy Yeah Lodge And that’s too bad That’s too bad Oh Harkins is a very superior officer and I’m glad that they plan to keep him on after his term expires in January I think It would be—I would be very unhappy if he would leave then Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge He is very very good Well I think those are the—I’m planning more cultural contacts They have a great respect for the culture and learning in that country and I’m going to try to get some books to the university and get—try to develop that side of things a little bit But those are about the principle— Kennedy What about the food thing Is there any problem about arranging that Can we do that alright Lodge I’ve been in touch with AID and they’ve told me how to do it I’ve made the PL memorandum to Hilsman Harriman thought I didn’t even need to bother Rusk with it Kennedy Yeah Yeah Yeah Lodge And Hilsman seemed to think he could handle it alright Kennedy Right Right Lodge That gives us something to do Kennedy Yeah Yeah I was asking Forrestal—see I asked to get a report of the whole Buddhist thing how much of it is political and how much religious and how much is subversive How do you judge it Lodge I think it’s only partly religious Buddhism isn’t a religion that makes great demands It isn’t a religion that has a lot of discipline—a little bit like Episcopalians laughs Kennedy Yeah laughs Lodge You know people—they want to have a funeral and they want to have a wedding and the man will go sometimes with his wife to keep her happy and be respectful laughs Kennedy Yeah Yeah 11 Lodge Well then why do they feel they can go and try to chop their hands off in front of the altar I think they have a sense of injustice which is always possible with many of these people I think they have a feeling that they’re discriminated against I don’t think there’s been persecution I don’t think they’ve persecuted the Buddhists I think it’s just a natural thing to give the posts to the best educated people who were the people educated in France— Kennedy That’s right Lodge —who naturally happen to be Christians Kennedy That’s right I— Lodge I think it’s come along that way And then there was complete stupidity in Hue— on the 8th of May But that can happen anywhere Kennedy Yeah Lodge And then there was a comedy of errors because they flew the Vatican flag and then Diem said pull down the Vatican flag and put up the Vietnam flag And then they thought of it—a month later they put up the Buddhist flag and then police remembering that Diem had ordered the Vatican flag pulled down told them to pull down the Buddhist flag and then got stupid and shot into the crowd and as a matter of fact killed two Catholics in the crowd I think the religious angle is very slight Very slight Kennedy It’s unfortunate that it’s a Catholic-Buddhist fight— Lodge And so of course the press has mentioned that all the time Kennedy Yeah Lodge Because the fact that these people are Catholics is killing unclear Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge The heart of the matter is that they’ve established a police state and that they’re interfering with the liberties of people And that you have resentments born of that Kennedy Right Yeah right Lodge I think that’s what it is And that’s a damn unclear serious That is the bottom of the whole thing They’re completely—she says to me that—she’s a very impressive person They’re completely cut off from everything It’s very hard to get in to the palace The only people that get in are people that tell them what they 12 want to hear They don’t have the slightest idea what’s going on in the country And if that’s true it’s very serious And the— Ngo Dinh Can the brother who governs the central province nobody ever sees him He’s locked up in his place And the bishop is living in the 12th century and— Kennedy Is that a brother is he— Lodge He’s another brother Kennedy Yeah Lodge The bishop is a brother the governor of central province is a brother the principal advisor is a brother and the ambassador to London and Paris is a brother Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge But as you say they are strong anti-communists Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge And I’d hate to let go with my claws and let the whole unclear — Kennedy Yeah Yeah Yeah Lodge But if they all get assassinated then you’re going to have to— Kennedy Yeah Yeah Yeah Lodge And then you’d really have to be on top of it all Kennedy And what about Madame Nhu Is she a lesbian or what She seems awfully masculine Lodge Well I think she probably is Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge And I think she also was a very promiscuous unclear of information too Kennedy Yeah And she’s had this terrific moral reaction is that it Lodge Yes She’s closed up all the dance halls for the American soldiers Kennedy Yeah Lodge Besides it was—I think that was unclear I’m going to try to give the USO— 13 Kennedy Yeah Lodge —a little encouragement out there Kennedy Yeah Lodge Because if you can’t go to the nightclub in town— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —you’ve got to do something Yeah she did all that She has this act as a Puritan That’s what she’s— Kennedy Unclear laughs Lodge laughs Kennedy Unclear of him Lodge Unclear laughs Kennedy That’s a dangerous combination isn’t it laughs Lodge Unclear laughs Kennedy laughs Lodge That’s very well put Let’s see I told you about everything that happened in my night If I can ever get him—if they ever get back on a normal track I’d like him to turn into a real political leader and— Kennedy Yeah Lodge —give the country a sense of national purpose And when we reclaim this land from the communists make it possible for the farmer to have a good living Here is a country where 80 percent of the people are farmers and yet the policy is adapted to the city dweller And the farmer rarely gets the price that he ought to get for his rice and all those things And as the military makes its gains the farmer ought to be doing better because then he can talk to the military You give him intelligence and then he’ll be feeling good Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge They don’t do anything like that because Saigon is all cut off from the farmer and for generations the tradition is that the capital tells the village what to do but 14 never anything from the village to the capital I’d like to do what they did in the Philippines and have a suggestion system whereby anybody in any of these villages can send a message to Saigon and you have a competent man with a staff to process the messages and throw away all the nut ones and do something about the meritorious ones Kennedy Yeah Lodge In the Philippines with the Huk thing that had a great effect on making Ramon Magsaysay popular and then making the army popular And then have the army— Kennedy Anybody can send a message to him Lodge Yes Magsaysay arranged—anybody in the Philippines could send a message to him Of course he never saw them but he had a very competent man with a very competent staff who really followed through on the meritorious ones Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge And it had a—according to General Lansdale who you know— Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge —really he’s a valuable advisor—that created a great psychology Then they arranged to take care of the farmers that got wounded—take care of them in army hospitals And then farmers that had litigation about their land they take the judge advocates out of the army and they litigate them for them And it all makes the army popular Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge Those are all psychological things I’d like to give him a little lesson on how to be a politician Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge You could do better than I could laughs Kennedy laughs Lodge laughs But I could do better than they could but some of the people would— Kennedy Yes they can What about unclear He’s a pretty good press man they all tell me 15 Lodge They tell me— unclear is the press man and then the head of the U S I A is the former Time-Life man—John Mecklin Kennedy Yeah I hear— Lodge In fact I’m told the U S government has put its first team out there and that’s very attractive Kennedy Yeah Yeah Yeah Lodge The present head of the economic commission is apparently very good And—I think there are no eight balls at all They’re all very good Kennedy Yeah Yeah Lodge And of course if somebody is a blabber mouth—somebody is not satisfactory I have the authority to— Kennedy Yeah Send them back Lodge —send them back So that’s that I’d like to have your photograph Mr President Kennedy Yeah good Alright when are you going to leave Lodge I am leaving on Saturday I am leaving here right now to go to New York I have some appointments in New York as well as the head of the Associated Press 22 06 510 Photographs taken As conversation breaks up remainder of conversation turns to politics and prospective 1964 Republican candidates while their voices become more and more distant 16 NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu Read related article New Light in a Dark Corner Evidence on the Diem Coup in South Vietnam November 1963 2020-11-01