I MEMORANDUM THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON DECLASSIFIED NODIS XGDS E O 12958 SEC 3 5 05D U lo a lo'T ' D1- 13 S OA l 0 µJ 3fllo'I MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION IJY DATI· lflkl 0 i PARTICIPANTS Dr Henry A Kissinger Secretary of State and Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Dr James R Schlesinger Secretary of Defense Major General Brent Scowcroft Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs DATE AND TIME Tuesday January 8 1974 8 00 a m - Breakfast meeting PLACE The Pentagon Schlesinger I may skip the dinner for the Aussie Defense Minister Kissinger Why is Gayler going there through But Rush and Ingersoll are going Schlesinger Maybe I am too tough Kissinger We can allow ourselves to be knocked around Schlesinger The European press has been favorable to you recently Adelbert Weinstein said it Kissinger He is a leading military commentator We are sending a Presidential letter tonight on oil consultation - to the consuming countries And one to the producers on Thursday For the energy conference Schlesinger You know about our deal with Saudi Arabia for the 6th and 7th Fleet 200 000 barrels per day That is more than enough I am getting sick of the Arabs lording it over their former bosses NODIS XGDS PHOTO COPY FROM GERALD R FORD LIBRARY s--f C R g f- - XGDS 3 CLASSIF lED BY HENRY A KISSINGER 2 SB€R T NODIS XGDS Kissinger They are behaving badly Your people told Dinitz that all supplies are a political position We have got to give Israel some security for a withdrawal We can easier give them things now rather than if there's a deadlock Schlesinger We must get some things from production a $200 million package moving But we are getting Kissinger That is not their impression Schlesinger We will move I agree with you Kissinger Dayan has now given us a plan for a disengagement He describes the proposal It has soft spots 1 They'll allow only two battalions on the East Bank 2 The restrictions west of the Canal 3 The Israeli line west of the passes We have problems introducing the proposal into Geneva and the Russians getting in My fear is if the Soviet Union wants to play rough they can demand 20 more kilometers etc The Israelis are giving up almost everything without reciprocity No one knows of the plan - - except Israeli leaking I may go out this week and try to settle it I think we are within reach of success We have managed it fairly well Schlesinger We will get the equipment moving Kissinger Give them the sense of movement we can always slow up on delivery Schlesinger But they ask for things like 2 000 Condors etc giving them 1500 tanks etc We are Dayan is not very smart Kissinger Rabin is their smart general Schlesinger Diego Garcia We have mentioned to Great Britain access to Diego and enriched uranium but we will sit until we get access Kissinger We now have a formal request for Super Antelope continuing record of stupidity They have a NODIS XGDS PHOTO COPY FROM GERALD R FORD UBRARV 3 SBCR NODIS XGDS Schlesinger It1 s a dumb decision It is only a hardened warhead and we can control their testing for the next six years They will need Polaris too Kissinger Talk them out of Poseidon Schlesinger I suggested they test in Australia and they were very upset The Aussies won't let them Kissinger Heath is basically anti-American and doesn't like the President It is a tragedy what is happening in Europe Look at what they have done since before World War I Two wars for crappy pieces of territory The Japanese I understand -- they know they have no alternative to us They told me the Europeans send them a note every two weeks warning them away from the U S But having said all this I would like to start up with Galley He is one we can work with and then at some time all of them can say you bastards you talk about unity and then you go this bilateral route with us Schlesinger The French are the worst bastards Kissinger Rose writes the same kind of reports as Kosciusco-Morizet does from here - - you know they have to write all the same way to keep their jobs The French are unadulterated bastards They haven't had a sensible Foreign Policy since Talleyrand France I s advantage was they were the only great unified country vis-a-vis Germany and Italy Napoleon ill sent troops to Italy to unite it and then he backed Prussia against Austria They pissed away 300 years of French diplomacy for nothing Schlesinger Germany is like in the 30 years war Kissinger Jobert is trapped between Pompidou ith no sense for foreign policy and his foreign office Let us send Foster to talk to Galley about doing something moderate Schlesinger I want to lean on Belgium and the Dutch not to buy the French plane for replacement for F-104 How about Ethiopian bases NODIS XGDS PHOTO COPY FROM GERALD R FORD LIBRARY 4 R U NODIS XGDS Kissinger I told them to move out I agree on the Dutch and Belgians The Europeans are tawdry DeGaulle had to give up the French Empire but he decided he would overcome the frustrations by focusing on Europe Schlesinger Kissinger Schlesinger Cromer is coming to say goodbye today I would lay it in to him and hard So he can take it back home NSDM 169 Kissinger It is with the President On acquisition we must formally keep control although we won't press you on it Schlesinger We put a number of strategic items in the budget but the targeting is the intellectual problem Kissinger This sets our strategic policy for years read it thoroughly Schlesinger I will take the flak Kissinger The President must On operational launch You may make Defense something more than a logistics boor SALT The JCS thank we gave something away in SALT I We gave up nothing That is nuts Schlesinger There's no problem defending SALT I Kissinger There is an obsession with equal aggregates Schlesinger Congress I attitude on the Defense budget is changing Kissinger The Chiefs oppose a MIRV ban Schlesinger We don't want a partial agreement which militates against long-run essential equivalence Gimmicks are okay Kissinger What I think is attainable -- I don't understand the obsession with reduction of launchers That compounds vulnerability NODIS PHOTO COPY FROM GERALD R FORD LIBRARY 5 s-ECRE'f NODIS XGDS Schlesinger I agree Kissinger They say get rid of MLBM1 s without giving up something Schlesinger I agree but we can't do it You must convince them that they can't be better than we are Kissinger What I think attainable is an equal MIRV throw weight agreement and an interim agreement for five more years That would finesse FBS and total numbers I do not believe the SS-16 idea is feasible Schlesinger That is going in position Kissinger I know something about the Soviet Union It is conceivable they would forego MIRV on the SS-18 and equal MIRV throwweight I do not think they would give up the 17 18 and 19 Schlesinger We must confine their missiles to specific fields wise we can't monitor as well Other- Kissinger That I haven't thought of That is a verification variable What makes me sick is the way people gab about what we would like They want the Soviet Union to give up 30% of their force while we stick to our program Schlesinger build up Kissinger Schlesinger peace You tell the Soviets that unless they come along we will You get a sensible buildup program and you can do that The Soviet press is taking off on me as a disturber of the Kissinger Good You should go to Moscow Be tough to Dobrynin Why not go between March and the summit or after the summit On Dobrynin wait until the Defense budget is out Schlesinger I would tell him that if they won't come down in SALT we will go up and risk a growth of anti-Soviet sentiment NODIS XGDS PHOTO COPY FROM GERALD R FORD L181 11 y 6 Let me complain about your press conferences on 11nuclear plenty11 and nuclear holocaust 11 Where you talk you must talk in terms of specific targets I can't sell Trident with your talking like that Kissinger Trident is a monster Schlesinger I have a program The Norwall boat plus Trident with a hard-target kill or Norwall with a normal capability Trident Kissinger What worries me about our procurement policies is our services are procurement agencies not strategic planners There is a tendency toward giganticism The B-1 is lousy Schlesinger Brown is good The Air Force needs him Kissinger The Air Force needs cleaning up The army is a disaster It's too bad Haig left Can you get him back at some point There was discussion about moving into the Middle East Bahrein Dahran Kissinger I will be careful about my quotations on nuclear matters NODIS XGDS PWHO COPY FROM l'ifP U'l R FORD LIBRARY