'l t u ontrlJ AIO''b uq MEMORANDUM By 0 HAR4 Da THE WHITE H O u · · - - - · WASHINGTON · _ ·- £ SECRETMii E fi · C R-·· ·r'· r '-· f · • • • • ttp MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION PARTICIPANTS _ _ J -·' Sir John Hunt Secretary to the Cabinet - Sir Peter Ramsbotham British Ambassador to the United States Richard Sykes Minister Embassy of Great Britain Charles Powell First Secretary Embassy of Great Britain Dr Henry A Kissinger Secretary of State and Assistant to the President for National Security Affai Major General Brent Scowcroft USAF Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affaii Helmut Sonnenfeldt Counselor Departinent of State Peter W Rodman NSC Staff v -R TIME AND DATE Friday April 26 1974 1 25 - 2 45 p m luncheon PLACE Eighth Floor Dining Room - - ' ·- -r- 'tT 'D l • s L• - _ • • _ w s · J • •ilR • J rtment A of State F · _·i C 1'5n13ffcft's 1 DiCLASSIFiiQdtteiili- Release Agreement Labour Government's 1 l QRD' 'R 1 ense Review UK Polaris Program Diego l '' 'OMATICALLY DOWNGRADE AT · -· ' ' rcia US-Soviet Threshold Test Ban French YJEA i_ I 'JTERVJ LS AND D CLASSIFIEib c@lidential Elections Middle East Washington DEC ER 31 ------------ --Energy Conference SCtl'EDUL17' 0 • r · • ·v •n' 1 'IV• t •• i u 1 a Secretary Kissinger I talked to a group of Jewish leaders yesterday knowing they would go Tight to the Israeli Embassy In case there are difficulties with Israel I told them what I think is necessary So there is no doubt in Jerusalem that I have locked myself into a position semipublicly • I Ambassador Ramsbotham That resolution in the UN yesterday I was astonished at the Israeli National Day yesterday when their Ambassador congratulated me on supporting their amendment He made no further ·comment SECRET ' I Ui SECRET r ·-r· SEGRE · nis t 'J'Jiorit'f u L ' 4 D £ ' Secretary Kissinger They save their wrath for me --- -• _ ••-•-- • •-n _2 _ laughter Ambassador Ramsbotham We both put out a statement the same as yours Sir John off • Hunt It is extremely good of you to see me when you have to go Secretary Kissinger This will be the last quiet talk I will have for the next two weeks laughter Sir John Hunt Really there are four things I want to cover 1 the conditions on the nuclear release agreeme t 2 to tell you of our defense review 3 Polaris and 4 Diego Garcia Secretary Kissinger Fine THE NUCLEAR RELEASE AGREEMENT Sir John Hunt The first can be done quickly On the nuclear release agreements the Embassy has now got instructions from the Prime Minister to confirm what we have with you Secretary Kissinger Have we received it Sir John Hunt No not ye Secretary Kissinger As soon as we receive it we will confirm it quickly and unchanged Ambassador Ramsbotham We are repeating a little of the language otherwise it repeats it by reference Secr tary Kissinger Does it refer to Bermuda Sir John Hunt That is what I wanted to say The Prime Minister tells me he wants to reconfirm that one too It is not a new decision it flows naturally from the other Secretary Kissinger No problem The only reason we did not raise it was that traditionally you took the initiative Sir J ohn Hunt Yes SECRET NODIS r S CRET NODIS - 3 - Minister Sykes Should we take it up with Hal or Brent Secretary Kissinger Brent The best way is to use as close to the old texts as possible Is there any reason to change the text at all Sir John Hunt N'o Ambassador Ramsbotham We will get on with that then THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT'S DEFENSE REVIEW Sir John Hunt Good I would really lik_e rather privately to tell you how we are handling the defense review There will be lots of press stories we have an active group of defense correspondents We want you to know the truth The present government are committed to this review of defense expenditures We are looking at all the priorities and commitments I am chairing this review Secretary Kissinger Isn't that unusual Not the Defense Minister Sir John Hunt Sir Burke always played a big role in it The time scale we envisage is That we will report to Ministers about mid-July Then Ministers will have to consider all this and expect to take their decision in the autumn Secretary Kissinger Will the budget be in October Sir John Hunt Normally it will be in April The Prime Minister wanted me specifically to tell you that no decision will be taken on the defense review without consultation with you and our · other main allies We have not been given any specific target for expenditure Secretary Kissinger When you say consultation with whom Department The Defense SECRET NODIS r ' SECRET NODIS - 4 - Sir John Hunt There may be some contacts on a technical level but with more important things at the Ministerial level Secretary Kissinger On nuclear matters we can probably steer you in directions where you will not go wrong Defense people have their own idea s Check with us first Ambassador Ramsbotham That will h lp me too Sir John Hunt There is no target presented for savings Secretary Kissinger But there has to be s_avings Mr Sonnenfeldt No percentage of GNP Ambassador Ramsbotham That report was totally untrue this I told Schlesinger Sir John HI int But we are very deliberately looking at everything and putting together the building blocks if I may use that expression Instead of going for a percentage cut and how to achieve that we are looking ·at the whole range of things And unfortunately there will be a horde of rumors coming out of London Because we have th_is corps of defense correspondents Secretary Kissinger We will take our decision on the basis of what you and Peter tell us Sir John Hunt There was a story that we were leaving Malta and Cyprus That is not true Mro Sonnenfeldt But it produced a plea by Mintoff that you stay laughter Sir John Hunt Our ministers will not look at anything until mid-July and there will be no decisions until autumno Secretary Kissinger We will do nothing on the basis of reports Brent can you tell Defense what our understanding with the British is and tell them to lay off General Scowcroft Yes SECRET NODIS r • i' •' ' SECRET NOD IS '1 •• '· - 5 - Sir John Hunt We sirnply do not know at the moment and there is the risk of scaring people or of making the wrong reassuring noises l - · There is a possibility that a Minister may go out to the Far East to talk·to the governments there It will be to listen Secretary Kissinger The Defense Secretary Sir John Hunt Possibly or another Minister Secretary Kissinger You will have no problems with us Sir John Hunt We are very grateful Secretary Kissinger You may have problems when you present us your options but not in the process of review Ambassador Rarnsbotham Roy Mason the Secretary of State for Defense is coming out the 29th or 30th of next month at Schlesinger's request So they can get to know each other before the DPC meeting · Sir J ohn Hunt I am quite sure he will be giving no indications of what will be coming out of the defense review Secretary Kissinger If you want me to see him I will be glad to Ambassador Ramsbotham Thank you U K POLARIS PROGRAM Sir· Joh q Hunt Leading on from that the Ministers have been looking at Polaris -- the Prime Minister Chancellor Defense Minister and Foreign Minister They were grateful for the support the President gave to Prime Minister Heath They have now got to the state where they were in no desire to reverse the decision Secretary Kissinger Good Poseidon decision Of course we think you should have made the Sir John Hunt There will be no formal decision for a while but I think they will agree They have already given the authority £or spending for the next six months They would not have done so if they were not so inclined I am here to ask if you can ask Lockheed to go ahead full blast SECRET NODIS ' f SECRET NODIS - 6- Secretary Kissinger Absolutely No problem It would really be a tragedy if Britain got out of the nuclear business In spite of my hegemonic aspirations over Europe laughter I really think it will be better for Europe to have an independent nuclear deterrent Sir· John Hunt We will say nothing If there are leaks or gossip that Ministers have to answer we will say something banal about taking all steps necessary to maintain the credibility of our deterrent Secretary Kissinger To the extent that we can control it we will be helpful Sir John Hunt There will be a problem with the firm Mr Sonnenfeldt There are thousands of people involved once the decision is made to start up Secretary Kissinger We can talk to the companies but it is not in their nature We can guarantee what our formal response will be Brent in my absence can you coordinate in the Government General Scowcroft Yes Secretary Kissinger to Ambassador Ramsbotham You work with Brent Peter When will Lockheed learn that you have asked them Ambassador Ramsbotham Your Navy asks them ·secretary Kissinger First we will work out some fo m of words with Peter Before we tell the Defense Department anything Then we will call Defense as soon as possible On Monday Ambassador Ramsbotham The sooner the better Secretary Kis inger Tomorrow Ambassador Ramsbotham Monday is fine We have this fellow Chapman Pincher who is the best -- or worst -- at finding out things SE RET NODIS SECRET NODIS - 7 - Sir John Hunt But I think we all have to live with our defense correspondents -- I am sure you have them Ambassador R amsbotham I was impressed with the quality of the questions from-them on your plane They were well-informed questions Secretary Kissinger They were the diplomatic correspondents Sir John Hunt There is one particular problem on n announcement That is on May 22 there is a test in Nevad·a involving our thing What we were hoping is no announcement at all or if it is necessary to say anything that there be no mention of a British test ecretary Kis s nger What is the regular procedure Minister Sykes Defense prefers if _it is a big test and especially if there is a possibility of venting to announce it in advance Secretary Kissinger What size will it be Minister Sykes Thirty-five kilotons Secretary Kissinger That is no problem Sir John Hunt We hope there is no announcement Secretary Kissinger · We should stick as close as possible to the normal procedure bec·ause otherwise it attracts attention Do we announce whose it is Mr Sonnenfeldt Usually we do I think Ambassador Ramsbotham That is the problem Secretary Kissinger We will talk to Duey Lee Ray announce it Why do we have to Mr Sonnenfeldt It has to do_ with the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy Ambassador Ramsbotham You can hold it up for a few months Sir John Hunt Until 1975 or at least until late autumn Secretary Kissinger Check it Brent • SECRET NODIS ' SECRET NODIS - 8 - • Minister Sykes The people in the area will observe the arrival of the British scientists But you can say there is a close continuing relationshir with Britain nd this is part of the normal liaison • Secretary Kissinger Yes · Is this the first Super Antelope test _Sir John Hunt Yes Secretary Kissinger But no one could possibly know that DIEGO GAR CIA Sir John Hunt That covers the nuclear field The other thing is Diego Garcia The new government have not yet discussed this among themselves Before I left I told the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary that you would probably ask about that so I asked what coul d I say This is a difficult one l think the Prime Minister wants to be helpful and reconfirm it But there will be a fuss over it Already a number of Indian Ocean states are complaining Secretary Kissinger I know only one Bir John Hunt We have had more than one Secretary Kissinger Really· Sir John Hunt· It is minority government and there will be an election soon We would like to know could it_be delayed What is the urgency from your point of view Secretary-Kissinger It is silly to put a $35 million item into the suP plemental aid bill But I must tell you the Navy and Defense Department are so eager for this that something that looks like footdragging will ·cause ill will The first problem is to get the money That is our domestic problem Mr Sonnenfeldt To get the money will be a problem if your decision isn't made The opponents will use that argument Secretary Kissinger Is it knocked out of the supplemental General Scowcroft No SECRET NODIS f N IFI Pf71iIW ' SECRET NODIS - 9 - Secretary Kissinger If the budget category exists it will eliminate some of the urgency in Defense Sir John Hunt I cannot tell you that the ultimate decision will be positive because Ministers genuinely' have not looked at it I know the Prime Minister wants to be helpful It would be better if the decision came in a few months Secretary Kissinger In all honesty if it were a negative decision you would pay a price out of all proportion Defense is really concerned General Sco' vcroft Yes Sir- John Hunt You ·saw the row we had over Chile whether we should break the·contracts over warships They the government have stuck firm But they are worried about another row while they are a minority government Secretary Kissinger We will protect you If there are two conditions 1 That there are not too many statements that it is in doubt Sir John Hunt Ambassador Ramsbotham Yes we will do that Secretary Kissinger And second if you can tell me the key Ministers will work for a positive decision Schlesinger can talk to your man •••• Sir John Hunt It would be a great pity if the idea got out that there is disagreement over this Secretary Kissinger I agree but I do not think we can prevent Schlesinger ·from talking to your Defense Secretary -- or our Chief of Naval Operations will kill im laughter Sir John Hunt He should give the arguments why it i s important there should not be the appearance of confrontation But Secretary Kissinger Yes Sir John Hunt If it matters to you take the oppo rtunity to make it clear to Roy Mason and anyone else But if you can give us a few months to play this along •••• Secretary Kissinger We will do our damnedest The only problem would be if Congressional action was stimulated by doubts about your decision SECRET NODIS ' SECRET NOD IS - 10 - Sir John Hunt That is the chicken-and-egg problem Ambassador Ramsbotham We have to play this one very close together Minister-Sykes · We were worried about this a few-weeks ago -- that that argument would be made in the Congress There were hints of it but it was less than was expected Ambassador Ramsbotham What about Senator Kennedy's proposal that first there should be an overture to the Russians A self-denying agreement Secretary Kissinger The Russians were mumbling something Ambassador Ramsbotham Party Because that would have an appeal in the Labour Mr Sonnenfeldt Is there supposed to be another round of talks on this Ambassador Rarnsbotham John Thompson and Sy Weiss re going to get together on another issue Sir John Hunt There is one question that I would like to ask about Diego The Foreign Secretary wondered if it was a good idea to try to engineer some sort of Indian Ocean Conference to convince Mrs Bandaranaike and others that it is a good idea Secretary Kis inger That is not a good idea Sir John Hunt It wouldn't work Secretary Kissinger My experience is the Indians will calm down very quickly that i ve are paying no lasting price with them and the time will come when they will be grateful General Scowcroft But they can't say something publicly Ambassador Ramsbotham The Australians too Mr Sonnenfeldt On those talks with Thompson and Weiss we will see to it that our people don't badger yours on Diego Minister Sykes I think Diego is a separate issue from what they're discussing Mr Sonnenfeldt Then we don't have to say anything to them SECRET NODIS t 'J'JiOri'r'jll AID -' O 'lZ 22 - i By WOP NAR4 Da_ s feo l SECRET NODIS - 11 - US-SOVIET THRESHOLD TEST BAN Secretary Kissinger One more point on the nuclear business We are talking with the Russians about a threshold test ban The threshold would be five on the Richter Scale or 150 kilotons in Nevada which protects your program which is the only reason you would obj·ect · Sir John Hunt That would the form of such an agreement be Secretary Kissinger We are still talking about whether it should be bilateral or in the CCD If we put it in Geneva it really creates pressure on others Ambassador Ramsbotham China Secretary Kissinger And France condominium It would give the impression of Ambassador Ramsbotham Not to do it would put Geneva in an even further condition of desuetude Secretary Kissinger Which wouldn't be a great tragedy Ambassador Ramsbotham But some in the Labour Government are concerned about this Secretary Kissinger This test ban wouldn't go into effect until 1976 ·would agree on·ly that this would be negotiated A lot of issues like peaceful nuclear explosions would have to be worked out We Ambassador Ramsbotham Does the IS0•kiloton limit bite on anything significant Secretary Kissinger On large warheads Minister Sykes Like Amchitka Secretary Kissinger Oh yes One of the problems we have is that it would affect the design for larger Minuteman warheads Ambassador Ramsbotham Is it with a quota SECRET NOD IS ' ' SECRET NODIS Tli'i iliiiaiti - 12 - Secretary Kissinger No Ambassador Ramsbotham When we were talking about this before a quota wai involved Secretary Kissinger But if you do a number of tests together it is· practically unverifiable Ambassador Ramsbotham The Russians will accept thisl Secretary Kissinger Yes Last time we told them 4 7 now it is five tell them we made a new discovery laughter We'll THE FRENCH PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION Sir John Hunt Who do you think will get the Presidency Ambassador Ramsbotham Chaban seems to be slipping fast Mr Sonnenfeldt Jobert came out for Chaban out for Giscard Juillet and Balladur came Secretary Kissinger Fascinating Why would Juillet do that There was one period when Juillet wanted to establish contact 'With me He came over here -- I told you about it or your predecessors - - and I could never under stand what he wanted Mr Sonnenfeldt You even threw me out so you could see if he really had a secr·et to tell you laughter J Secretary Kissinger I think Mitterand could really win Ambassador Ramsbotham Our people Tompkins sen t in a good assessment a week ago Secretary Kissinger What is our Embassy reporting on the FRELOC Agreement laughter Ambassador Ramsbotham DeGaulle always relied on IFO polls Secretary Kissincrer My encounters with DeGaulle were always unfortunate When we first went there DeGaulle gave his usual speech on his vision of -Europe -- that Europe didn't exist that it was a collection of states Then SECRET NOD IS - ·-·• SECRET NODIS - 13 - they were ha ving drinks and the President asked me over and said Tell President DeGaulle what you think about his presentation I said It was an interesting presentation Mr President but how do you prevent the-Germans from dominating the Europe you have described 11 He said Par la guerre laughter Then later he said Why don't you get out of Vietnam I said uBecause it would create a credibility problem He• said Like where I said In the Middle East He said In the Middle East I thought your enemies had the credibility pr blem laughter My encounters were not a great success I don't think I overwhelmed him THE MIDDLE EAST Ambassador Ramsbotham Tell Sir John the story about the picture in Riyadh Secretary Kissinger When I first met Faisal he gave me his story on Zionism and Communism His idea is that the Jews dominate Russia He told me that Jews were getting into high places everywhere At that point I thought I had better change the subject laughter So we were in a big banquet room On the far wall I could dimly make out a picture of · some outdoor scene So I said Is that the Arabian desert He said It is the holy oasis 11 and fell into a morose silence laughter The last time I was there Saqqaf -- do you know him -- told me afterwards it was a good meeting one of the best he'd seen I said How do you know 11 He said Usually the King just stares at his lap this time he was looking straight ahead laughter He said Usually the King sits there picking lint off his robe this time he didn't laughter Then Saqqaf told me it was clear the embargo would be lifted I said How Because the King said it wouldn't Saqqa£ said The King was afraid you would leak it so he told you the opposite laughter Ambassa·dor Ramsbotham A clear signal Damascus Will you have a problem in Secretary Kissinger The problem will first be in Israel They have never given an indication they would give more than the October 6 line Ambassador Ramsbotham I thought you said they would Secretary Kissinger I wrote them a letter telling them what was needed I can't believe they would be so reckless as to let me come without getting it SECRET NODIS I ···--- ··· t ' SECRET NODIS - 14 - The second problem is that there has to be some entry for Syrian tanks to go They will probably want it all to go the UN At some point 1 will just tell them I am leaving the area I will probably go to Kuwait Then maybe to see the Shah At one point I gave them two hours to make a decision I just said I was leaving the area At that point there were 950 Egyptian guns across the canal and they were haggling over whether 36 or 72 could remain Actually they wanted there to be no tanks • Ambassador Ramsbotham The agreement is being carried out well helped to set it up We Secretary Kissinger Perfectly There was one technical problem about the number of guns in a battery That was cleared up And you know they are also thinning out on the West Bank too Ambassador Ramsbotham To supervise it this way is unprecedented Secretary Kissinger We give both sides the same pictures Ambassador Ramsbotham On Syria where will you supervise from Cyprus Minister Sykes It is nearer Secretary Kissinger There is a difference in the atmosphere Sadat wanted it to work Asad wants it to work but has to keep the appearance of straining against it Ambassador Ramsbotham The Russians are making a fuss about the use of Cyprus Secretary Kissinger It is amazing how the Syrians are keeping them at arm's length Dobrynin made an approach to me about a meeting in Damascus the Syrians are against it Ambassador Ramsbotham I wonder why this strong hostility toward the Russians In Egypt I understand it They were offended by the behavior of their technicians SECRET NODIS 15 - Secretary Kissinger They were offended by behavior of personnel Vinogradov too they dislike Ambassador Ramsbotham I asked the Indian Ambassador about this Kaul He knows them from his own point of view He said the Russians have ·a chip on their shoulder about being part of the West and in the less developed countries they make this apparent ina patronizing way Mr Sonnenfeldt That is true Secretary Kissinger When I first went to _Syria I thought they were penetrated and so I said nice things about the Soviets in case it got back to them The Syrians contradicted me Ambassador Ramsbotham When you see the Shah do tell him about this Because he is slightly claustrophobic about a pincer movement Secretary Kissinger makes note to himself In New York I sat next to an Iraqi who told me they have a pragmatic policy and aren't tied to the Russians Ambassador R amsbotham Very interesting Secretary Kissinger We will wait We will let them feel surrounded first After we get a Syrian disengagement the Syrians will come half as far as the Egyptians did towards us Then we will work on Iraq Ambassador Ramsbotharn I am worried about Iraq the Kurdish thing Secretary Kissinger Maybe we will stoke it a little less actively WASHINGTON ENERGY CONFERENCE Sir John HW1t On the Washington Energy Conference are you thinking of reconvening it in the present form Secretary Kissinger We would be willing to reconvene it if other governments support us I don't have the impression the producers want a consumerproducer meeting Ambassador Ramsbotham This was Ennals' view SECRET NODIS