Department of State A GlsnPS SRP Cha J_9e t o - - - - - - '-1 Release Excise Deny Y J Declassify Exemptions b E O 13526 25x CQliJ H I i HT§l fl Declassify after ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE With concurrence of wAs H N GTON obtai ceraber 3 t ·82 IPS b L HfJ Date I 2 9 - MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION Participants Assistant Secretary of State Bureau of Human Rights and Hurnani tarian Affairs Elliott Abrams f3 t _Aic1 • • Date and Time December 3 1982 1 00 p m Place The Jockey Club Ritz-Carleton H0 Washington D C 1 ·-f ' - J -C -I J - J ol - fv 't f ¼ el M--r J - J 1 Lj J ----------------------------------------------------------------There were two main topics certification and the question of the disappeared As to certification the Ambassador asked where things stood He said he thought Argentina on the facts deserved ceitification Whe I mentioned setbacks such as the recent Calvi statement on · the mothers of terrorists or some closing of magazines e acknowledged them But the JIJT1bassador noted that there were always going to be some of the minor incidents while the army was in power The overall trend however was enormously positive He certainly hoped Argentina would not be denied certification simoly because of Chile Certification would help both° countries He pointed out in particular that while older Argentine military men have close ties to America and are willing to put he Falklands War behind them this was not true of the younger military They have fewer ties to the U S and reacted with uch· greater hostility to our support for the U K It is important to draw them into relations with the U S military he said I responded that in principle I agreed that today's facts would permit certification of Argentina We would of course prefer to certify Argentina and Chile together as this would not open us up to accusations of turning to one side or the other The Ambassador asked whether we would not at some point have to J make a final decision on Chile and proceed with Argentina how ·r W long could this drag on I told him I thought we would be t -- f1 - making these decisions at around the end of the year and that C f whatever the decision on Chile I did not see any obstacle right - -r d _r now to an eventual certifi cat ion of Argentina within the next · few months However this · cor clusion assumed that there was no change in today's facts For exampl e if the army opened -1 ·· - i fire on a demonstration or if there were a coup this would L t change the current situation If there are no changes in the situation if the hlli an rights situation continues to progress I did not see an insurmountable obstacle to certification - - ' - -X - -- - 'IID i - A 1 ' i -f J • H I asked the Ambassador how the question of the disaopeared would affect future political developments How ultimately would a compromise be reached between the military and the parties He replied that there was no clear answer However he was somewhat optimistic for in private discussions the -political leaders were much more sensible and realistic than they were in public speeches So perhaps a compromise could be reac hed which would satisfy everyone On this issue the military is bsolutely united and determined to avoid widespread and vengeful punishment for its acts One element of a compromise would be fo r the government to tell everything it could qbout the fate of individuals even if there were no investigation into ho they had reached that fate I raised with the Ambassador the question of children in this context such ai child en born to prisoners or children taken from their families during the dirty war While the disappeared were dead these children were alive and this was in a sense the gravest humanitarian problem The Ambassador agreed completely and had already made this point to his foreign minister and president They had not rejected his view but had pointed out the problem of for e xample taking children from adoptive parents I sugges ed that that problem might be handed over to the Church or to a commission which included the Church doctors etc Action with respect to these children would have enormous humanitarian and political content Again the Ambassador said he was in complete agreement and would rai se this point once more with his capital I asked the Ambassador what he forsaw f or Argentina after next fall's elections He said he had some optimism that democratic traditions could be established He did not share the new sentiment in Argentina that elections were a magical panacea to Argentina's problems However he felt the nation had learned much from the cycle of·terrorism military violence repression and so on Finally the terrible defeat in th war had brought the nation into a head-on crash with reality He hoped this would lead people to act with somewhat more responsibility in politics His greatest hope though this was not his firm prediction was that a civilian elected president could succeed another so that Argentina could begin to return to the peaceful and democratic traditions of the pre-1930s period I asked him about the Peronist movement and its future role He said his remarks applied to the Peronists as well Now the Big Boss was dead and the Hlady who shares his name was out of politics Accordingly there was no Peron who could choose party official s The only way fo r them to be chosen legitimately now was through internal party democracy and the - --- CUNPIDENIIAL -3- party has said that it would have internal elections to choose new leaders There was always some danger of a coup he said The victory of the Peronists or a Peronist government in power might lead to coup efforts by certain portions of the military in cooperation with certain economic interests The old economic oligarchy had the most to lose if labor unions came close to power It was not inconceivable that shortly before an election in which a Peronist victory seemed assured or a t some point during Peronist rule there might be coup attempts I told the Ambassador that what we needed for certification was a period of quiet and steady human rights progress He agreed and said that -he was sure the authorities would react with restraint when there are for example political marches and demonstrations There would no doubt be setbacks and unfortunate incidents but the trend toward more and more free expression and toward free elections wa s un stoppable and would continue EA ks x21780 @Btii ±DEN I AL