US Government Transcripts Meetings between US and Iranian Representatives in Frankfurt and Mainz West Germany TOP SECRET October 1986 _________________________________________________ Note The American participants below are NSC staffer Oliver L North retired General Richard V Secord retired CIA official George Cave and Secord’s business partner Albert Hakim who mainly is interpreting for the Iranians Cave also speaks Persian and sometimes interprets The Iranian names are redacted but the participants are known from other accounts to include Ali Bahramani mentioned above and Ali Samii a member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps although his name is likely a pseudonym The double parentheses and question marks indicate indistinct passages they have been inserted by the government transcriber The authors of this volume have provided additional text for context within brackets and in italics Frankfurt October 6–8 Tape begins with Hakim and Ali talking quietly together at times even whispering … Then U S parties enter the room and several conversations are taking place simultaneously Then talks resume SECORD … I’m going to address this list There are some terrific practical problems here There are a couple of real as opposed to philosophical problems with this list … SECORD The first problem is political based upon previous official requests of the Iranian government … and I would underline desperate requests from him for TOWs or HAWK parts and for high powered radars We have achieved presidential authority for immediate air delivery of those items Redacted can deny this or not deny this It is irrelevant We have documentary proof It is not even worth discussing And the president of the U S has approved a secret operation to deliver these items immediately and we would have already delivered them except that we were asked to hold up so that we could have these higher level discussions … NORTH Let me Okay Everything that the general Secord said is entirely accurate When we looked at this list we estimated that excluding these two items the HAWK and the TOWs missile systems we are looking at a minimum of four shiploads of equipment Thousands of people in the U S at a minimum would know about that If we are going to do something like this it has to be very clear that we are doing this because we are working for a military balance in the region and a political solution and honorable solution to the Iran–Iraq war … NORTH That Saturday when Ali Bahramani was in Washington on a visit arranged secretly by North that included a late night tour of the Oval Office and I flew up to Camp David to talk to the president and I showed him the list and he said “Why are you thinking so small ” He took the list that list right there and he went like this with it – I was sitting across the table – and he said “For someone who has seen so much war as you have North you should understand that I want to end that war on terms that are acceptable to Iran … I don’t want to simply help go out and kill more Iranian youngsters What about the 2 million people without homes What about the oil industry which is already in ruins What about the industrial base of Iran which is being destroyed Stop coming in and looking like a gun merchant ” And he banged on the table “I want to end the war ” And every time we get to the point where we can act in that regard we find this obstacle sitting in the middle of the road … HAKIM Interprets For “Samii ” whom the Americans nicknamed “The Engine” I think like you do in the evaluation of the subject and its solution And I also understand that the main problem is what you just discussed But how can I defeat the prestige and honor of my country while I am not convinced that I have something in hand I should be in a position when I go back and tell the leaders of Iran that I want you to put at stake your honor in trade for this which is the honor of the U S Add to this the problem that we have in Lebanon I want to tell you that if these hostages were in our possession like the matter of the American hostages in Iran in 1979 few words missed we would have resolved it He Samii wants you to know that if they actually had their hands on the hostages in Iran sic this should have been resolved the same day that the other hostages were released And I want you to know that even today as I’m sitting here we do not have a guarantee that the Lebanese would 100 percent listen to what we have to say We must put at stake the substance that would be equal with our existence And you know that even up to this date in connection with the Tehran hostages we are still few words missed in a mess Therefore please understand my problem I cannot go to Iran and say forget about the 500 million dollars in the Hague issue regarding the status of Iranian assets frozen by the U S after the Tehran embassy seizure in 1979 And I do not expect in this meeting to resolve that … NORTH Let me make just one last point and then it’s your turn … Ronald Reagan is going to be president of the U S for two more years and will never again serve as president … This president would like to have – I can tell you because I’ve listened to him – his vision is that when he leaves office in 1989 we will have full diplomatic relations between your country and ours He would like to be remembered as a man who helped to bring peace if you will to the question and Muslim and Jewish people in this world That’s why he chose the phrase he did from our Holy Book a reference to Galatians 3 8 which Reagan inscribed in a bible that North gave to Bahramani in Germany as a token It isn’t a word indistinct short-term thing just to get reelected or to solve the immediate problem and then forget about it He really has a long-term vision He knows that Saddam Hussein is a expletive HAKIM Do you want me to translate that NORTH Go ahead that’s his word not mine … Tape A3 Meeting at Mainz W Germany October 29–30 1986 … HAKIM Interprets in Persian He was explaining that if we are not successful not only will this group’s work come to an end and few words missed but groups in the future which want to make contact will use this as an example – that Iranians are not reliable This will be studied … HAKIM Interprets If you don’t have any more items on your side he likes to let me explain what’s happening on their side NORTH Well I do want to hear that Let me just make one point about that … He Hakim works for me – you Cave translate this – he works for me as a consultant I don’t know the Farsi word for consultant but as a part-time contract employee He has been this for four five years for me since I have been at the White House and in the president’s office He does translations The VOA broadcast in Farsi which you asked for and we gave he translated those from my English to Farsi SECORD And if we fail we are going to shoot him because somebody has to go Like in Iran somebody has to be shot … CAVE In Persian Mr North and I are lucky They won’t shoot us we’ll just go to jail NORTH Fired SECORD The president may shoot North HAKIM OK he wants to explain his case HAKIM Interprets I have addressed this issue earlier that he’s bringing up He wants to clarify his position that people back home believe that a lot of times he talks about things which he should not talk about Therefore it is very important that whatever he tells us should not get into the official channels and get back to them Because that would make life miserable for him and difficult for him He has no financial interest few words missed One objective is to make sure that this thing is going to few words missed He has full trust in this group especially in General Secord He has been very truthful with him very helpful and he wants to see that something good is going to come out of this Therefore please whatever he discusses should not leave this room so he will feel comfortable to be able to get back to us trails off I discussed that earlier this week few words missed The next passage relates to the Iranian political process He says you have to understand that Iran just finished few words missed and setting Imam Khomeini aside the country is managed by shareholding word missed And once you put Khomeini aside there are a number of people involved There are three basic groups of this shareholding company One is the radicals and they are word missed radical and word missed radical within the same… Then the third group is the right-wing and then there’s two few words missed who is headed by Hashemi Rafsanjani And not only do they follow their own line but they are also the connection in between the first and the third group … He wants you to understand that the principle … These three groups have the same objective and they all agree in the same way when it comes to actual execution they have different approaches And they are not purely political a few words missed religious a few words missed As you probably know Imam Khomeini has issued decrees few words missed In public opinion he Rafsanjani is considered the second man second in command basically because of these word missed When redacted raised the issue of establishing relations with the U S he was in favor of it but for his own politics he decided to get all the groups involved and give them a role to play NORTH Wait a minute who’s “he ” HAKIM Rafsanjani He wants you to know who redacted is Redacted works for several words redacted belongs to the radical group the radical group that they were the university students who took the hostages in Iran That’s the group When redacted contacted redacted in this approach to establish a relationship with the U S he redacted asked for representatives of the three groups to be present and participate in this action and two words missed support In other words this idea of having all groups participate in this is not new It dated back a long time ago and still he’s going to explain more and still sticking to it This issue as you can very well understand is very sensitive 3 lines redacted This approach of redacted was a doubleedged sword – and positive and negative points… The positive point being that if it would be a failure and all parties are involved so there would not be an internal war And the negative part is that because different views and opinions are under the same roof it’s very difficult to manage ——————————— Mainz October 29 NORTH The big problem I’ve got is the whole damn appearance of bartering over… bodies I mean if we’re really sincere about this whole friggin thing what we ought to be doing is they ought to be exercising every possible amount of leverage they’ve got to get these people out and we agree that as soon as they’re out we can do all kinds of good things because that’s where we are we’re heading We will have a friggin FMS Pentagon Foreign Military Sales contact team … What we are trying to do is to close the bridge on this secret shit and get on with the real reasons You know when we were in Tehran see Document 23 okay fouled up though it may have been if you look at the document that I wrote and former National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane was prepared to sign you will see that that’s what we were talking about way back then way back in May 1986 – is to get beyond the hostages and get on with a formal relationship Everything we have done since the very first contact whether it be step-bystep or whether it be all at once that’s where we’ve been trying to go You guys don’t trust us and we don’t trust you and so we end up doing it a little bit at a time and it takes forever … NORTH I’m telling you we are so close to having done the right thing – you and I and Ali and the men in this room and yet we are going to foul it up I can see it coming … NORTH When we were in Tehran all McFarlane said was “Look we don’t want you guys to lose the war we want an honorable settlement and all you have to do is use your influence to get those hostages out and we are going to do all kinds of things for you ” in fact he said don’t limit yourself to this there is much much more that could be done The hostages have to get beyond us we have to get beyond them time out for tea HAKIM They are convinced that we have good intentions He has said it before He said “After things broke up in Iran and you left and then yet you sent this stuff That indicated to the Iranians that the Americans have good few words missed He has brought this up but he says in other words he’s saying he knows that we have good intentions NORTH So how the hell do we get from where we are today to where we’ve got to go … HAKIM Interprets He says a country like the United States – a superpower – is it not in their power to send two or three technicians Tuesday I said “Yes it is We can send them on Monday we can send them on Sunday ” … Then I said “An imam like Khomeini – the first Shiah Imam for the first government of Shi’ahs in the world – he doesn’t have the power of going to Lebanon and telling those assholes to release the three hostages Such a great religious power NORTH And his answer was HAKIM “No He doesn’t know the details ” I said “Well our president doesn’t know the details ” I’m trying to make the point that it’s the wrong attitude to sit back there and say the United States is a superpower and we forget that Iran is a super religious country It’s very equal NORTH Well it is and the influence that the Imam has over those who hold the hostages is near total HAKIM Of course He can get those people back with one word One word I’m convinced It’s no bullshit I think… He can He can … Source S Rept No 100-216 100th Congress 1st Session Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair Appendix A Vol 1 Washington DC 1988 selections from pp 1571–1664