MAKING IT A PRIORITY FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION MARCH 4 2020 Serial No 116–95 Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Reform Available on http www govinfo gov oversight house gov or docs house gov U S GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 40–427 PDF WASHINGTON 2020 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM CAROLYN B MALONEY New York Chairwoman JIM JORDAN Ohio Ranking Minority Member PAUL A GOSAR Arizona VIRGINIA FOXX North Carolina THOMAS MASSIE Kentucky MARK MEADOWS North Carolina JODY B HICE Georgia GLENN GROTHMAN Wisconsin JAMES COMER Kentucky MICHAEL CLOUD Texas BOB GIBBS Ohio CLAY HIGGINS Louisiana RALPH NORMAN South Carolina CHIP ROY Texas CAROL D MILLER West Virginia MARK E GREEN Tennessee KELLY ARMSTRONG North Dakota W GREGORY STEUBE Florida FRED KELLER Pennsylvania ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON District of Columbia WM LACY CLAY Missouri STEPHEN F LYNCH Massachusetts JIM COOPER Tennessee GERALD E CONNOLLY Virginia RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI Illinois JAMIE RASKIN Maryland HARLEY ROUDA California RO KHANNA California DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ Florida JOHN P SARBANES Maryland PETER WELCH Vermont JACKIE SPEIER California ROBIN L KELLY Illinois MARK DESAULNIER California BRENDA L LAWRENCE Michigan STACEY E PLASKETT Virgin Islands JIMMY GOMEZ California ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ New York AYANNA PRESSLEY Massachusetts RASHIDA TLAIB Michigan KATIE PORTER California DEB HAALAND New Mexico DAVID RAPALLO Staff Director WENDY GINSBERG Subcommittee Staff Director BRANDON JACOBS Clerk CONTACT NUMBER 202-225-5051 CHRISTOPHER HIXON Minority Staff Director SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS GERALD E CONNOLLY Virginia Chairman MARK MEADOWS North Carolina Ranking ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON District of Columbia Minority Member JOHN P SARBANES Maryland THOMAS MASSIE Kentucky JACKIE SPEIER California JODY B HICE Georgia BRENDA L LAWRENCE Michigan GLENN GROTHMAN Wisconsin STACEY E PLASKETT Virgin Islands JAMES COMER Kentucky RO KHANNA California RALPH NORMAN South Carolina STEPHEN F LYNCH Massachsetts W GREGORY STEUBE Florida JAMIE RASKIN Maryland II C O N T E N T S Page Hearing held on March 4 2020 1 WITNESSES Carol C Harris Director Information Technology and Cybersecurity Government Accountability Office Oral Statement Anil Cheriyan Director Technology Transformation Services General Services Administration Oral Statement Bill Zielinski Assistant Commissioner Office of Information Oral Statement Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are available on the U S House of Representatives Document Repository at docs house gov INDEX OF DOCUMENTS Documents entered into the record during this hearing and Questions for the Record QFR’s are available at docs house gov Rep Meadows’ written statement Questions for the Record to GAO Carol Harris submitted by Subcommittee Chairman Connolly Questions for the Record to GAO Carol Harris submitted by Rep Meadows III 5 6 7 MAKING IT A PRIORITY FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT Wednesday March 4 2020 U S HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM Washington D C The subcommittee met pursuant to notice at 2 02 p m in room 2154 Rayburn Office Building Hon Gerry Connolly presiding Present Representatives Connolly Norton Speier Plaskett Khanna Meadows Hice Comer and Steube Mr CONNOLLY Subcommittee will come to order Without objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time I now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening Statement and then I will call on the distinguished Ranking Member Two years ago I attended a White House roundtable on modernizing government technology where I met with White House officials including Matt Lira and Jared Kushner who at the time headed the Office of American Innovation They discussed the administration’s plans to modernize the Federal Government’s legacy information technology systems and to leverage emerging technology I found myself agreeing with many of the IT goals set forward by this administration Moving to the cloud using technology to improve customer experience finding ways to incorporate machine learning and improve agency processes and prioritizing cybersecurity to make our Nation more secure However agreement with the administration’s technology modernization goals does not mean giving any administration carte blanche to pursue those goals The Federal Government spends nearly $90 billion per year on information technology And as we’ve learned through the biannual FITARA scorecard many IT efforts go sideways because they lack proper leadership and oversight Taxpayers deserve a government that leverages technology to serve it and also one that invests dollars wisely and transparently That has not always happened In 2016 this subcommittee along with the then Subcommittee on Information Technology held oversight hearings to examine whether 18F and the U S Digital Services were fulfilling their missions 18F was launched in 2014 to help agencies improve digital services What began as a 15-person startup soon morphed into an office of 185 people that were spending a million dollars more per month than it was recouping in revenue This subcommittee is con 1 2 ducting oversight to ensure that other IT modernization efforts don’t have the same problems or develop the same bad habits Across several administrations the General Services Administration has been tasked with operating programs designed to facilitate the modernization of existing technology The Obama Administration launched the Presidential Innovation Fellows and 18F to help agencies ostensibly tackle technology challenges More recently the Trump Administration launched the Centers of Excellence Initiative to help Federal agencies move to the cloud adopt artificial intelligence and better use data analytics among other efforts What are the results of those efforts Are they achieving the Stated purpose Are they providing services that can better be delivered by the private sector These are the questions we hope to address this afternoon and they are not unique to this administration Hearsay is also responsible for ensuring agencies have access to the telecommunications and IT solutions that are needed to meet mission requirements through the new Enterprise Infrastructure Solutions or EIS contract vehicle EIS is critical to the Federal Government’s IT modernization efforts and will help facilitate major improvement efficiencies and cost savings However to take advantage of the lower prices in modern technology offered under EIS agencies must move off of Networx that’s W-O-R-X the current and outdated telecommunications contract This transition is easier said than done GAO reported that the previous transition to Networx was plagued with delays and ended up taking 33 months longer than anticipated These delays eventually led to an increase of of course $66 4 million in cost to GSA and an estimated $329 million in lost savings because agencies continued to order services from a predecessor contract even after improved services were available through Networx at generally lower prices I’m concerned and I know the ranking member is seriously concerned that agencies are now repeating the same mistakes in the transition to EIS which will result in a greater cost to taxpayers GSA is also working to simplify certain government purchases by establishing a program for all agencies to procure commercial products through an online marketplace or ecommerce portal a requirement in the Fiscal Year 2018 National Defense Authorization Act The online marketplace could allow those with agency purchase cards to use an online portal more efficiently to buy office supplies and some information technology goods that are under the micro purchase threshold of $10 000 While making these types of transactions simpler is a shared goal GSA must work with agencies and stakeholders to ensure that we are not introducing unneeded risk across the government Would an online marketplace make it easier for agencies to purchase counterfeit goods foreign manufacturer telecommunications equipment that has been deemed a threat to national security such as 5G by railway or other IT goods with inadequate cybersecurity protections This subcommittee needs assurance that GSA is appropriately considering the consequences of letting agencies purchase cheap potentially counterfeit goods or products with supply chain risks We must ensure that GSA has a plan to mitigate those 3 risks in the development of a desirable plan the online marketplace GSA plays a key role in helping Federal agencies modernize their IT systems and leverage to deliver better services to our taxpayers I’m hopeful that the programs we are examining today can achieve their promised savings and deliver a better government to Americans And with that I call upon the Ranking Member Mr Meadows for his opening Statement Mr MEADOWS Thank you Mr Chairman Thank each of you for being here Mr Chairman this is an important hearing This has been a priority for you and because of that it has been a priority for me And we have been able to work together in a real way to hopefully address the $92-plus billion that we spend annually on IT and make it more effective in attrition Certainly GSA’s willingness to help us with the technology assistance and procurement process is vital in that effort For example the Enterprise Infrastructure Solutions or EIS contract represents a $50 billion contract to modernize the agency networking communication system And the EIS contract needs to be successful for agencies to continue transitioning from the old and often unsecured Legacy IT systems to a more modern secure and cost-effective cloud solution If this is your first time hearing it I can’t imagine that you’ve been around IT long because it is something that the chairman and I fully agree What I’m I guess to go off script very quickly what I’m frustrated with is we continue to spend billions and billions and billions and make just very small incremental changes in terms of what we’re doing I have found that I spent less money than most departments let alone agencies and I had a much more robust IT system in the private sector just because I was able to be a lot more efficient with it You are talking to someone in the chairman’s seat who is a real expert in this area Whether it is dealing with cybersecurity everybody puts aside their security box there and they say OK we are dealing with cybersecurity until they have a moment where they are not dealing with cybersecurity And so for me I think it is important that we actually do actionable steps and so for each one of you I want us to say how can we take our—this is the way things have always been done hat off and really look at this differently And if it requires legislation and I have said this before Ms Harris knows this if it requires legislation and a fix we are willing to fix it I mean there is only so long that you can spend $100 billion a year and not have the most remarkable IT system in the world I mean it would be one thing if it was truly groundbreaking But I even find even on the congressional side and this has very little to do with it I have a hard time sharing my calendar with my wife in a secure environment We can’t even find—I mean something so simple that we should be able to do that and yet we have all these obstacles that are not there So I am anxious to hear that from all of you I will give you my entire written Statement for the record Mr Chairman Mr CONNOLLY Without objection 4 Mr MEADOWS Thank you I would ask—I want to introduce the gentleman from Georgia He is about to become the ranking member on the Government Op—Operations Subcommittee The gentleman from Georgia Mr Hice So welcome Congratulations It is a promotion just because you get to work with the fine gentleman from Virginia Mr HICE Well I recognize that part of the promotion and otherwise I do look forward to working with the chairman and I appreciate the tremendous leadership of the ranking member and a good friend And I appreciate the opportunity to serve Mr MEADOWS And I will close with saying this You have been a dear friend You have been someone who I have been willing to not only listen to and take advice from but I have been—when we disagree we are able to do that in a manner that is not disagreeable And it has been an honor to be your ranking member It was more of an honor to be your chairman but it is certainly an honor as we transition in some of these roles And with that I yield back Mr CONNOLLY I thank the distinguished ranking member And I—let me first of all welcome Mr Hice in his new role and I look forward to that collaboration But let me also reciprocate I—you and I have been friends and colleagues and we will continue to be at least through the end of this Congress and I think we have gotten a lot done We have looked for opportunities for common ground Not everybody does that And we are I suppose if you— people knew each other’s political background we would be certainly an odd pairing Mr MEADOWS Yes Mr CONNOLLY And yet we have by listening to each other by respecting each other we have found common ground And certainly on this subject we have I think moved the ball way down the playing field because of that And I really thank you and I hope we will approach the remainder of this year in that same spirit with the new ranking member But thank you Mark Thank you for your leadership With that I want to introduce our panel We have three distinguished individuals who are going to testify before us today Carol Harris who is the Director of Information Technology and Cybersecurity at the Government Accountability Office with—welcome back Ms Harris Anil Cheriyan Cheriyan You get to be called properly your name Mr MEADOWS And then I’ll butcher it but go ahead It’ll be right and at least—— Mr CONNOLLY So Anil how should I pronounce it Mr CHERIYAN Cheriyan is great Mr CONNOLLY Cheriyan OK Director of Technology Transformation Services at GSA And Bill Zielinski Assistant Commissioner Office of Information Technology Category also at GSA Welcome all three If you would rise and raise your right hands We swear in our witnesses customarily here at the Oversight and Reform Committee Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God 5 Witnesses sworn Mr CONNOLLY Thank you You may be seated Let the record show that all three of our witnesses answered in the affirmative The microphones are sensitive so I would ask you to pull it close and speak directly into it And without objection of course your full written statements will be entered into the record We would ask now that you summarize those statements and take five minutes or less in which to do so Ms Harris you go first STATEMENT OF CAROL HARRIS DIRECTOR OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND CYBERSECURITY GAO Ms HARRIS Chairman Connolly Ranking Member Meadows and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting us to testify today on GSA’s Enterprise Infrastructure Solutions Program As requested I’ll briefly summarize the findings from our draft report completed at your request on this important IT acquisition GSA is responsible for contracts that provide telecommunication services for Federal agencies but GSA’s main telecom contract set to expire soon EIS is intended to be GSA’s successor program Transitions involving previous contract experienced significant delays and the delays during the transition to the current contracts known as Networx resulted in an increase of $66 4 million in cost to GSA and an estimated $329 million in lost savings at agencies Unfortunately it appears GSA and its customer agencies will be headed for another transition delay with EIS unless corrective actions are taken quickly This afternoon I’d like to highlight two key points from our report First the current rate of transition to EIS by agencies is too slow The 19 customer agencies in our review all reported plans to fully transition to EIS before May 2023 when GSA expects extensions to its current contracts to expire However 11 did not intend to do so by GSA’s suggested September 2022 milestone The majority of the 19 agencies also did not meet GSA’s milestones for completing critical contracting actions in 2019 By waiting until close to the end of the current contracts to finish the transition these agencies are at risk of experiencing service disruptions if any issues arise that result in transition delays such as inadequate staff resources or the need to transition previously unidentified services Moreover given agencies’ poor performance during the last two transitions and their lack of meeting GSA’s critical EIS milestones thus far agencies are again at high risk of experiencing delays during this transition Further they will miss out on potential cost savings by delaying their transitions to the new contracts which generally have lower rates for service Now to my second point Agencies have not yet fully implemented the established planning practices that can help them successfully transition to EIS We have previously identified five planning practices that can help agencies reduce the risk of experiencing adverse effects of moving from one broad telecom contract to another Based on commonly accepted principals of project management these practices encompass a rigorous management approach appropriate to a complex contract transition 6 Among other things these practices include developing an accurate inventory of services conducting a strategic analysis of telecom requirements and identifying resources needed for the transition Of five agencies we analyzed in depth all had taken steps to address these practices but none had fully implemented them all For example all five had developed telecom asset and service inventories but none were complete Some agencies also planned to implement certain practices after they issued their EIS task orders The timing of the current telecom transition has been known since the contracts were first approved a decade ago and limited time remains to complete the transition before the current contracts expire Further inadequate project planning was a key factor that contributed to the delays during the prior transition to networks Agencies that do not fully adopt the comprehensive approach captured in these five practices will not make the most of the opportunity for change and the potential to save costs that such a major telecom transition provides In light of these issues we are making a total of 25 recommendations to those five agencies to fully implement these planning practices And that concludes my statement and I look forward to addressing your questions Mr CONNOLLY And thank you very much Mr Cheriyan STATEMENT OF ANIL CHERIYAN DIRECTOR OF TECHNOLOGY TRANSFORMATION SERVICES GSA Mr CHERIYAN Chairman Connolly Ranking Member Meadows and distinguished members of the subcommittee good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to testify here I welcome the subcommittee’s interest in two important programs in my purview Centers of Excellence and 18F I am Anil Cheriyan Deputy Commissioner of the Federal Acquisition Services and Director of the Technology Transformation Services within GSA So today I’d like to share with you insights into the program’s missions approaches and impact While the CoE approach is typically a top-down agency-wide transformation 18F takes more of a project-specific approach centered on one key initiative So starting with the Centers of Excellence The CoE approach was established in October 2017 as a top-down agency-wide transformation that leverages a mix of government and industry talent while centralizing best practices into reusable centers Since inception TTS has formed six centers In our view these six capability areas are the focus areas needed by an enterprise when driving IT modernization To date the CoEs have engaged six agencies I’m happy to report that we recently as of yesterday announced GAO as our seventh agency and we’re currently in discussions with several other agencies on leveraging the CoEs While having been in existence for a little over two years the CoE program has already begun to show significant benefits to agencies and the public For example USDA has avoided significant costs by consolidating from 39 to 6 data centers Migrating 35 Contact Centers to 1 USDA and improving the transparency into the loan application process for farmers 7 Typically the CoE engages early with industry and transitions work back to the agency or its industry partner during the later stages of implementation From a financial standpoint the CoEs are fully cost recoverable and while more than doubling the size of the team increasing the agency partners and also adding a new AI Focus Center So moving onto 18F 18F was formed in March 2014 with a mission to make government’s digital services easier to use for the American people Since inception 18F has worked on more than 372 projects with 109 governmental entities However in the early years 18F suffered from growing pains typical of a startup which resulted in process control deficiencies I’m pleased to report that corrective action steps have been taken to rectify those control deficiencies For example the 18F work force has been right-sized to meet program demand At its peak the staff levels were in excess of 225 We’re currently just under 100 staff All of this was done while continuing to drive impact for agencies and the American public A recent example is the findtreatment SAMHSA gov site where a new website was developed to make it easier for people in crisis to find substance abuse centers Similar to the CoE the goal of the transition—of the 18F is—is to transition responsibilities to agencies and industry partners versus having a long-term role for 18F From a financial standpoint 18F’s gross margin has improved by well over 3 5 million in the last year We were nearly cost recoverable in Fiscal Year 1919 and have plans for full cost recovery in Fiscal Year 1920 So in conclusion the CoE program has begun to build momentum and sustainability 18F has made strides in improving performance while delivering improved citizen experience Again thank you and I look forward to the opportunity to answer any questions Mr CONNOLLY Thank you Mr Zielinski STATEMENT OF BILL ZIELINSKI ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OFFICE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY CATEGORY GSA Mr ZIELINSKI Chairman Connolly Ranking Member Meadows and distinguished members of the subcommittee my name is Bill Zielinski and I’m the Assistant Commissioner of the Office of Information Technology Category in GSA’s Federal Acquisition Service I also serve as the Office of Management and Budget’s designated government-wide IT Category Manager I am pleased to be here today to discuss the important role that GSA plays in the government’s IT priorities My office helps agencies navigate the challenges and opportunities presented by IT modernization implementing new security controls for the government supply chain and making IT purchasing more efficient Our focus is on maximizing the government’s mission effectiveness in a number of ways to include providing agencies a suite of IT and telecommunication solutions supplying emerging technology and innovations government while fostering small business participation and reducing the number of duplicative contracts 8 In Fiscal Year 1919 my office facilitated $26 billion in government spend related to IT with $1 59 billion in cost savings for taxpayers While my team in the GSA IT Category brings significant capabilities it is through the partnerships across GSA with agencies government and with private industry that we are able to deliver solutions for agencies at every step of the IT lifecycle I work in close coordination with OMB to review Federal IT spend determine where opportunities exist to collaborate on the acquisition of IT products and services and implement IT Category strategies to improve outcomes and get more value from IT dollars Across GSA my colleagues in Policy GSA IT Assisted Acquisition and Technology Transformation together comprise a high-performing team of IT experts We are directing significant efforts to deliver on Cross Agency Priority Goal Number 1 in the President’s Management Agenda to modernize IT to increase productivity and security And on GSA’s Strategic Goal to improve the way agencies buy build and use technology Technology is critical to how every agency serves the public and accomplishes its mission It is at the core of running support operations safeguarding critical information and providing data to drive decision-maker The 2017 Report to the President lays out a plan to improve the security posture of Federal IT by naming key initiatives and goals related to IT modernization As part of the Report there are actions related to the work GSA does to assist agencies in their efforts to modernize and secure the government’s IT systems The Enterprise Infrastructure Solutions contract helps Federal agencies modernize through telecommunications infrastructure and IT services EIS is the backbone of the Federal Government’s IT modernization efforts and carries great promise to facilitate improvements efficiencies and savings It is critical that agencies maintain focus on both modernizing and transitioning their mission—their mission-critical services off of the Legacy Telecommunications contracts and onto EIS Agencies are releasing solicitations and issuing task orders against EIS and GSA is monitoring their progress providing extensive assistance in establishing deadlines and milestones in order to accelerate the transition Additionally Federal purchasing through online marketplaces is rapidly increasing GSA is working to establish a government-wide program that will let agencies buy products online through commercial ecommerce provides We’re launching a proof of concept in 2020 and partnering with e-marketplace platforms to deliver a solution We expect to complete these acquisition activities and launch this spring and will submit a report to Congress detailing our implementation guidance at the end of April GSA is also piloting emerging technology programs within GSA and partnering with agencies using artificial intelligence distributed ledger technology machine learning and robotic process automation to develop best practices and playbooks and we’re also educating agencies about the immense promise of the next generation wireless capabilities and will soon release a 5G strategy that outlines activities and goals for adoption across government 9 In conclusion the challenge of supporting managing and securing the Legacy System significantly affects the ability of agencies to meet current and evolving mission requirements I want to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today and to discuss GSA’s priorities in 2020 I look forward to answering any questions that you may have Mr CONNOLLY Thank you so much All three of you are pros You did it within five minutes Thank you The chair now calls on the distinguished gentlelady from the District of Columbia Ms Norton for five minutes Ms NORTON Thank you very much Mr Chairman and I certainly appreciate this hearing Very intrigued by what we are doing here today I have a question about what looks like a move to promote efficiency when government agencies deal in the marketplace for offthe-shelf items where the national—the—our own National Defense Authorization Act in 2018 said that essentially the purchase of goods at $10 000 or under could be done through this off—for offthe-shelf items through an online marketplace I suppose Mr Zielinski I should ask you this question One will this save taxpayers money and two as part of that question is there any evidence that lower prices would result by off-the-shelf items being purchased individually in this way Mr ZIELINSKI Thank you ma’am for the question Under Section 846 of Fiscal Year 1918’s National Defense Authorization Act GSA is tasked with standing up a commercial platform in order to allow agencies to utilize that marketplace in order to purchase these commercial off-the-shelf products As you—as you point out what we’re looking for within this platform is a number of different things One of them is to be able to consolidate that buying power of the Federal agencies We know today that agencies are already using commercial platforms but what we are not doing is we are not actually consolidating that buying power through—— Ms NORTON How are you consolidating it now if each agency can go on and order these goods Mr ZIELINSKI Correct—correct ma’am And that’s exactly what’s happening today It’s happening in a disaggregated fashion today Ms NORTON Yes Mr ZIELINSKI But under the Section 846 legislation we’re going to have a central marketplace—— Ms NORTON I see Mr ZIELINSKI continuing That would allow for us to consolidate that buying—that buying power across government Ms NORTON And therefore you think the taxpayers will earn the benefit of reduced prices Mr ZIELINSKI Through—through the consolidation of that buying power correct ma’am Ms NORTON Yes I have to ask you about a concern about counterfeit goods with the sellers like Amazon are not—who get the information from the agency is not supposed to use it But I know a quote from GSA that the government has limited ability to proactively monitor and identify this behavior and of course the behavior I am talking about is counterfeit goods and knock-offs What does that mean So that you have limited ability is there no 10 way to monitor this to tell whether or not there is conformity with the law Mr ZIELINSKI Thank you ma’am for the question In today’s environment as I mentioned the agencies are currently going to the commercially available platforms in order to purchase these items and we as a government have limited access to the information about what’s being bought and the sources of those Under the Section 846 program rather than those commercial platforms we are looking to a business-to-business solutions that will allow for us to place requirements into the program so that we would have that level of insight That we would have both the information—— Ms NORTON So the requirements will go—will be—will go to whom Who will be—who will these—who will have to abide by these requirements Mr ZIELINSKI So under the program we have released a solicitation to industries seeking qualified providers of these platform solutions And right now we’re assessing proposals that have been submitted So any offeror is subject to those—those requirements under the program to provide us the data and the information that we need in order to do that monitoring In addition to that we’re also seeking solutions from the platform providers that would allow for us to readily identify and remove any products that we believe that we don’t have the strength of knowledge or there’s not a provenance known And in that way reduce the risk posed in—in terms of counterfeit goods or items being sold Ms NORTON Now when will you have that ability Beginning when will you have that ability Mr ZIELINSKI For the—for the program we’re actually releasing the pilot the first implementation will be this spring and we will start small and we will build from there Ms NORTON Thank you very much And thank you Mr Chairman Mr CONNOLLY Thank you so much Chair now recognizes gentleman from Georgia Mr Hice Mr HICE Thank you very much Mr Chairman And thank each of you for being here today Ms Harris I was interested in your opening comment you made a couple of statements such as many of these agencies are not meeting milestones as we are approaching the May 2023 And because of that you suggested that their may be possible service disruptions amongst some of these agencies and that you were expecting there to be some extension requests with all of this So just to kind of get started here with my questions how likely is it that any of these agencies are going to make a timely transition Ms HARRIS That’s a great question Based on past history with the last two transitions the agencies did not do very well In fact many of them For part of the—the reason why the 33-monthschedule delay was you know was a result for Networx And so unfortunately based on the current trajectory that we’re seeing it looks like a high number of agencies will likely be in that same—— Mr HICE Will any agencies meet the May—— Ms HARRIS I think that some will meet them Mr HICE OK 11 Ms HARRIS But the vast majority are currently behind Mr HICE Mr Zielinski would you agree with that Mr ZIELINSKI Sir we are concerned that agencies’ need to take the steps necessary in order to transition by that date The May 2023 final date is when those—when those contracts expire Mr HICE Yes I get that We are all concerned about it My question is are any of them going to make it Mr ZIELINSKI Yes we actually have a number or agencies who have actually already moved to task order awards and are already well into transition and will be executing before that date We have a lot of confidence We actually provide an ongoing update of exactly where agencies stand and we’re tracking—— Mr HICE So what percentage are going to be on time Mr ZIELINSKI I—I would have to be to get back to you with a— with a specific number I don’t have that off the top of my head Mr HICE OK And again I understand that’s an estimate Everybody’s guessing at this point but I would like to have some general idea of what we’re looking at If we have agencies not meeting milestones in the process here and possible service disruptions on the way I mean we kind of need to be aware of that before we get to that point So it would be helpful to have some of that information Is there any degree of punishment of negative consequences for agencies who do not meet the deadline Mr ZIELINSKI Sir as a—as a result of the last transition and some of the recommendations that was made by GAO we’ve actually adopted a very aggressive approach to where beginning with March 31 of this year we are actually going to begin to descope the current sets of contracts What we—what I mean by that is that we begin to limit the use and availability of the current—the current contract so that agencies cannot obtain new and additional services from the old contracts And in order to meet those needs they will have to move to the new contract as—as one example So we’re working with—— Mr HICE Would you consider that punishment or negative consequence Mr ZIELINSKI It—it is in the—it is in the sense that it—it provides a disincentive to stay on the old contracts Mr HICE OK So what are—and I will come back Ms Harris to you What are some of the characteristics between the agencies that are going to make a timely transition and those that are not What is the bigger—— Ms HARRIS Those that are going to make the timely transition will have adopted either the majority or all of the—the best practices that we have identified for a rigorous structured management approach And that’s actually one thing that GSA—actually there are a couple things that GSA could do to facilitate the—or accelerate the—the agencies into meeting the—the 2023 deadline The first of which is encouraging agencies to fully implement those practices Right now GSA’s guidance and template includes some of the aspects of these five practices that—that we have endorsed developing inventories establishing transition plans but— but there are a whole host of other sub-items or sub-activities that agencies can pursue 12 The second of which is GSA works directly with these agency transition managers and they could reinforce the transition—— Mr HICE But can—I have got less than 30 seconds Let me ask you one other question And I want to—I want you to get that to me But I guess overarching to me what other national technologies or cybersecurity priorities or whatever are dependent upon this transition taking place Ms HARRIS Well I mean certainly cybersecurity is a—is a top priority and—and ensuring that agencies move toward the EIS contracts is a priority because they’re currently on these Legacy contracts and they need to move to more modernized secure systems and—and services And I’m sure Mr Zielinski can elaborate further on—on the details of the security issue but that is a major incentive and reason why we need to move off of the old networks contract Mr HICE Sounds like it Thank you Mr Zielinski did you want to in fact elaborate on that as invited by Ms Harris Mr ZIELINSKI Certainly Thank you sir I—I absolutely agree with Mrs Harris’ assessment that there is—that there are a number of—of—of technology sets that we are actually seeing agencies move toward So for example moving from old standard TDM over to Ethernet Moving from—from current old Legacy voice over into voice over IP Moving to these more modern telecommunications kind of pieces will allow for better—for better security as well Mr HICE Thank you Mr CONNOLLY Chair recognizes the gentlelady from California Ms Speier for five minutes Ms SPEIER Thank you Mr Chairman Thank you all for being here Ms Harris your report really is fairly critical of what is going on That so much of everything is delayed Are there any agencies that we can look to as being superstars in kind of complying with the milestones Ms HARRIS Well unfortunately not right now I mean there are certain small agencies like SPA for example who you know they—they were expecting to issue one EIS task order and—and they have completed that But as far as the other more mediumsized and larger agencies they are behind at this point And is important to note that of the 19 that we reviewed there are 11 that do not plan to meet—or—or plan to transition to EIS by September 2022 which is GSA’s suggested milestone for completion And so if—if these 11 agencies are waiting essentially till the last minute to—to move onto EIS that—that’s going to be a problem because again if there are service disruptions or things that they aren’t anticipating it will most likely push out that May 2023 date to the right Ms SPEIER So you referenced then in 2007 the transfer to Networx caused something like $329 million in lost savings and increased of 66 million So it sounds like we didn’t learn any lessons is that—— Ms HARRIS No we learned a tremendous amount of lessons And in fact I credit GSA for incorporating those lessons learned from the Networx transition into their guidance in disseminating 13 those—those lessons to the agencies And now the onus is on the agencies to—to get their house in order and to move quickly to ensure that they are moving onto EIS as quickly as possible Ms SPEIER But based on what you have just told us that is unlikely to happen Ms HARRIS It—it is unlikely to happen based on the—— Ms SPEIER So what lessons are we learning this time then That there are not enough sticks out there to have these agencies comply with the milestones or is it that we are picking bad contractors Ms HARRIS I—I don’t believe it’s picking bad contractors I think it’s ensuring that GSA is putting in place the proper incentives and penalties to—to get the agencies to move quickly Ms SPEIER So if you were running GSA what kind of incentives and penalties would you put in place Ms HARRIS Well encouraging agencies to fully adopt GAO’s Five Practices for a Rigorous and Comprehensive Management Approach is I think is very important because we have found based on our work over the past two transitions that when agencies adopt these practices that they will transition successfully and on time Ms SPEIER OK Ms HARRIS That’s something that I—I believe GSA should be really reinforcing with the agencies Ms SPEIER And when those agencies don’t comply with those best practices what do you think should happen Ms HARRIS That’s a good question I mean I—I don’t think that there’s a—a one right silver bullet per se but—but perhaps there are some penalties that agencies should be having to—to experience in order to address these lessons Ms SPEIER I think what it underscores for me is that we have no level of accountability No one’s head rolls if they don’t meet these deadlines and so the fact that they don’t meet it for whatever reasons is acceptable and then the costs are borne by the taxpayers So I think we need to look at holding these agencies accountable in ways that gets their attention and it doesn’t sound like we have done that yet Ms HARRIS Well I—I—I think you’re—you’re right about that I also think holding hearings like this with the customer agencies could also be very effective in holding these—these agencies accountable and ensuring that they are—they are pursuing a timely transition Ms SPEIER Well do we have the time to do this with every agency Probably not All right One last—well I am running out of time but the issue of this marketplace is very appealing on the one hand because I think we pay a premium when it says U S Government on it whether we are buying paperclips or other kinds of equipments I am still not convinced that we have got the issue of fraud and misuse and counterfeits dealt with And maybe you can answer that for the record because my time is now up Mr CONNOLLY Ms Harris you can answer that if you would like and if there is additional material for the record we will welcome that as well 14 Ms HARRIS Sure So in terms of the counterfeiting compromised offerings that would be on this marketplace that that’s going toward supply chain risk management And GSA will need to take a long hard look at how they insure that they’re doing everything they can to properly vet the offerings that are on the platform And at the same time also clearly communicating to the agencies that these agencies have a responsibility to ensure that what they are purchasing is also not subject to counterfeit or—or compromise because they have a legal obligation to—to do their own vetting as well Mr CONNOLLY Can I just sneak in a piggyback question to that Ms Speier If the ranking member—you answered Ms Speier by saying well if USA had in fact taken into account a number of recommendations Now it is up to the individual agencies to get their acts together and implement But what’s the role of 18F There are 185 people who presumably are there to help facilitate this kind of thing Are they not available to these agencies to help Ms HARRIS I think that’s a question for Mr Cheriyan Mr CONNOLLY All right I will hold off on that But I mean I was really struck by your point about they’re on their own I am thinking well but we have consulting services within GSA presumably to help with this kind of implementation I will hold off until my questioning Mr Cheriyan but think about the answer Chair now—thank you for your indulgence Chair recognizes the distinguished ranking member for his questioning Mr MEADOWS Thank you Mr Chairman Ms Harris I am going to come back to where my colleague just left off because you know I am hearing words like progress and we are making attempts and we have a few areas Obviously then we haven’t them see the light The agencies have not seen the light Would you agree with that Ms HARRIS I would agree with that Mr MEADOWS So if they haven’t seen the light what she is talking about is it is time they feel the heat I mean I am with her I think at this point I am just frustrated We continue to have these hearings and either they are implementing your you know you say you have a five-step criteria for them to implement So how many of the agencies have implemented all five steps Ms HARRIS At this point for this particular transition none have fully implemented Mr MEADOWS None None Is that correct Ms HARRIS That is correct Mr MEADOWS All right So at what point do we put the fivealarm bell At what point do we come off you know and start pulling the bell and saying we have got a problem I mean so if—other than SBA is there any agency that we can bring in here and say this agency has done a good job and this one has done a terrible job Ms HARRIS Well I’ll—I’d have to get back to you on that sir Mr MEADOWS You would have to get back to me because nothing comes to your mind that there is no one that has done a good job and you are going to have to do some creative writing Ms HARRIS Well the vast majority of agencies are behind They’ve missed the—the critical suggested milestones that—that 15 excuse me that GSA has—has put out for 2019 and there are 11 agencies that do not expect to fully transition before 2022 So that’s a major—— Mr MEADOWS And what are the consequences to them not fully—I mean are there any consequences other than embarrassment Ms HARRIS The consequences are missed savings Mr MEADOWS Well no I understand that That is a consequence to the American taxpayer I doubt there is any person at an agency is taking money out of their wallet other than their normal taxes and paying for any lost savings isn’t that correct Ms HARRIS That is correct Mr MEADOWS Is money disappearing from their personnel fund or any other—I mean do they have any appropriations consequences for their inaction Ms HARRIS Not that I’m aware of and part of the reason why this is also happening is because agencies lack a—a formal governance structure for this transition process They’ve not defined key roles and responsibilities for the people that are responsible for the transition And so accountability at that point is then defused and it’s hard to pinpoint a single person who when the transition slides to the right is—— Mr MEADOWS Well here is—and I would offer for my colleagues this is one of those things where we really have to put the pressure and meet with the Appropriations Committee because I am tired of talking about it And here is what I want from each one of you Is I want you to give me the three worst offenders from missing the milestones and who is responsible what is the agency And I don’t care what it is I want to know that And then maybe three that are making an attempt That is sad to say that they are just making an attempt but the three that are making an attempt So which agencies have actually entered into contracts to get this done And so we are in the process but we have entered into a contract Mr Zielinski Mr ZIELINSKI So—so I can point to the Small Business Administration the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation the Social Security Administration the EEOC the National Relation—National Labor Relations Board have all entered into contracts And there are others who are in the technical review—— Mr MEADOWS All right So you have hit one of those And it is not to minimize all the others but Social Security is actually a decent-sized agency So what you are saying is they have entered into a contract they are taking it seriously and yet they are going to miss the milestone but they are at least taking it seriously is that correct Mr ZIELINSKI Sir there’s a series of milestones and the—the milestone that I believe Ms Harris is referring is toward the end of the contract life we had set a September 2022 date by which the agency should have transitioned off of their old services to provide adequate runway before the May 2023—— Mr MEADOWS Adequate runway I have been here for eight years They have had eight years of runway and they haven’t transitioned off of it so I am tired of the adequate runway And so here is what I need from you Mr Zielinski You know and I 16 find it just incomprehensible that my good friend from Georgia asked you about progress and who did not Is that the list that you just gave me Because when he asked a question you said well you are going to have to get back with us in terms of who is in compliance and who is not Mr ZIELINSKI No sir Mr MEADOWS Did I misunderstand you Mr ZIELINSKI That was a—I believe that was a different question that—— Mr MEADOWS So what was the question that you didn’t have the answer to there Mr ZIELINSKI I—I’d have to—— Mr MEADOWS If it is different I want you to answer his question Mr ZIELINSKI Yes I—I—I would have to—I’m sorry I’m missing—I’m not—— Mr MEADOWS So it may have been the same question Mr ZIELINSKI I don’t believe it was It was—— Mr MEADOWS OK She wrote it down The lady with the green pendant there Yes Yes She wrote it down Mr ZIELINSKI It was the percentage of agencies—— Mr MEADOWS And you don’t know what percentage of agencies Mr ZIELINSKI I—I would—I would have to go back and look at the exact number because there are hundreds of agencies The—the study that was conducted by GAO—— Mr MEADOWS But if you are keeping the score and you don’t know I mean why should we hold them accountable Guys let me just say and some of you this is not your first—but the last thing I hate are for people to come here and be unprepared and not have it especially when we’re talking about this kind of stuff Ms Harris knows this I am not asking you to have the answers but what I am asking you is to have the facts And that should be a fact so you can get that back to us within the next 48 hours Mr ZIELINSKI Certainly We update that constantly We can do so Mr MEADOWS So you update—can you have one of your staff members go out and call and before this hearing is over we maybe get that Would they be willing to do that She is nodding her head You can turn around She is nodding her head yes OK Yes I just—I am just at the point we just got to get serious about this And what I want you to do is help the Chairman and I get serious about this And we are going to at least make them feel the heat OK I yield back I thank you for your generous—— Mr CONNOLLY Not at all I thank you and I would underline— I mean this is the Committee of Oversight and Reform We wrote a Reform Bill FITARA We have been promoting in this subcommittee and its predecessor with the Information Technology Subcommittee you know good government measures to try to retire Legacy systems consolidate debtor centers protect the site— the enterprise with cybersecurity measures and the like And it is frustrating to us beyond words that we are at the pace we’re at and exposing ourselves sometimes at least to financial risks if not 17 technology risks So I certainly underline what both Mr Hice and Mr Meadows have said Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California Mr Khanna for five minutes Mr KHANNA Thank you Mr Chairman Thank you for holding this hearing on the Centers of Excellence I appreciate your doing that and I want to thank Ranking Member Meadows for co-leading the Center for Excellence Bill HR–5901 The Centers for Excellence is a program that has accomplished quite a lot to date and I would love to hear Mr Cheriyan what you would think it has accomplished and what you would like to see it accomplish moving forward Mr CHERIYAN Great And I thank you for that question As I had said in my opening statement the Centers of Excellence started back in 2017 We have now got seven agencies actively using the Centers The Centers are—there are six of them I can go into each one of them We have now driven a significant amount of change in one of the large agencies USDA where we’re much further along Where we’ve done a significant amount of work in terms of Cloud migration data center reductions consolidation of call contact centers improvement of the loan processing and so on The next major agency that we’re further along with is HUD At HUD we’re in active discussions on the implementation phases where we’re looking at Cloud solutions for—there about 1 000 forms that HUD uses We’re looking at streamlining that whole process automating that whole process with them and building several more customer-specific tools for HUD to use So there’s a significant amount of work in HUD and so on So I can—I can go down each of the agencies Mr KHANNA Can you give an example of money that has been saved to the American taxpayers because of this program Mr CHERIYAN There are—there are a significant amount of cost avoidance You know each of the agencies has gone through what their estimates are I can get back to you on the specifics of it There are—— Mr KHANNA That would be great I mean when you have a few concrete examples I think that would be helpful The—can you also explain the difference between 18F and Centers of Excellence and their role to support the technology modernization in government Mr CHERIYAN Sure 18F is primarily what I call a user-center design-focused organization looking at the—the user processes and streamlining the user processes So it’s very much of a taking a customer-centric view and streamlining those processes So they’re very—18F programs are very specific They’re initiative driven Building of a new website and streamlining those processes using you know for example the Idea Act to improve the whole citizen experience The Centers of Excellence approach is much more of a top down transformation approach leveraging the six competency areas that we’ve built AI data and analytics Cloud migration contact centers and so on So we’re leveraging skills and capabilities that are typically needed to drive a transformation So it’s much larger in— 18 in scope and there could be multiple initiatives within a CoE program whereas 18F is program specific Mr KHANNA And what can Congress do to be most helpful in seeing the success for the Centers for Excellence Mr CHERIYAN Well I really appreciate having the opportunity to talk to you here about this and you know this shines the light on the good work that’s being done frankly by a lot of people both in industry as well as our teams I know you’re in the process of creating a bill and we’re happy to provide you technical assistance there Mr KHANNA What are the things in a bill that you think would be most helpful to make sure this succeeds Mr CHERIYAN We—we can certainly work with you on that and—and work with your staff on—on what we believe are—are the key components Mr KHANNA Thank you Thank you Mr Chairman Mr CONNOLLY Thank you Mr Khanna The chair recognizes the gentleman from Kentucky Mr Comer for five minutes Mr COMER Thank you Mr Chairman and appreciate the hearing on making IT a priority for the Federal Government Mr Zielinski Administrator Murphy recently wrote an article in Fortune Magazine where she said and I quote ‘‘E-commerce has revolutionized how people and organizations buy and sell things It’s rewired the American economy and shifted the purchasing process However the Federal Government has not kept pace with these trends The last major round of acquisition reform was a generation ago ’’ My question to you is explain how introducing e-commerce into the purchasing process through this pilot program benefit the Federal Government and ultimately the taxpayers Mr ZIELINSKI Thank you sir for the question Under Section 846 of the National Defense Authorization Act we are required to explore the utilization of various e-commerce platforms and incorporation of Federal Government In the pilot that we’re moving forward with one of the clear benefits right from the beginning is we’re actually targeting a portion of the—the market that is not currently providing services to the Federal Government So for one it’s opening up a marketplace that has not previously been there Number 2 again as I mentioned earlier we know that agencies are currently using various e-commerce platforms in order to conduct business and to buy common goods and products By moving it to a business-to-business platform it allows for us to have a lot more insight into exactly what is being purchased from whom that information—from whom those goods and products are being purchased as well as to provide us with an opportunity to add additional controls in and around what is being purchased and how it’s being purchased Mr COMER OK In that same article Administrator Murphy noted that having a whole-of-government approach to procurement will provide agencies with critical insight into their spending leverage the government’s buying power take advantage of constantly evolving pricing to include sales and bulk discounts and ensure 19 small business participation Now can you quickly explain those benefits to the taxpayers Mr ZIELINSKI Absolutely The—the—again back to the buying power today as agencies are making these purchases they’re making them in a disaggregated way by working with a—a kind of a centralized approach and strategy toward e-commerce platforms and working with those providers those portal providers themselves we’re able to aggregate or to bring together the buying power and consolidate that in order to improve competition and get better prices on behalf of the American taxpayer Mr COMER And I agree with everything you are saying It sounds great But do you have confidence the Federal Government will be able to pull that off Mr ZIELINSKI I—I do sir I—I you know I believe that—that the approach that we’re taking as driven by the legislation that provides for Number 1 a lengthened period of market research at the beginning and a very considered approach will allow for us to have a great chance of success with this Mr COMER Have many agencies expressed an interest in participating in this program Mr ZIELINSKI They have We actually have met with quite a number of agencies that numbers well—well above a dozen and we actually have received commitment from agencies to work with us to both drive those requirements and to participate in the program Mr COMER OK Well thank you very much Mr MEADOWS Was the gentleman yield—— Mr COMER Could I yield the balance of my time to the gentleman from North Carolina Mr MEADOWS Yes So are you going to have the two awardees by the end of this month Mr ZIELINSKI I—we are—we’re currently working through those proposals and our plan is to be able to make that award here hopefully by the end of this month but—but certainly here in this—in this spring window of time Mr MEADOWS So is the deadline legislatively the end of this month So you are going to miss the milestone Mr ZIELINSKI Well currently we do—we do have several protests that we are working through that—that impact or effect when we will be able to issue that award Mr MEADOWS And why are they protesting Mr ZIELINSKI We received a number of protests in this particular case The three protests that—that remain are—are asking us to reassess their proposals that were submitted I—I can’t—I’m sorry I can’t—— Mr MEADOWS No I’m not asking you but so I guess so what is your internal timeframe for addressing that Mr ZIELINSKI So the—the protest periods the standard protest periods are—are what are driving those and—and they will allow for us to award by the end of the month Mr MEADOWS Oh so you do think you will be able to award by the end of the month Mr ZIELINSKI We are hopeful that we will be able to do so 20 Mr MEADOWS OK So worst-case scenario is by—probably not Is that what she just said Mr ZIELINSKI Yes Mr MEADOWS I can read lips from way over here So probably the end of April I mean you can turn around and ask her I mean what are we thinking in terms of timeframe Mr ZIELINSKI Sir it’s difficult to—to say exactly the window of time that it will take to work through the protests but we do believe that it’s in a—in a short window of time If not by the end of the month shortly thereafter Mr MEADOWS All right So if you are running into a problem that is going to last over 30 days will you get back with the chairman and let him know the progress Mr ZIELINSKI We will do so sir Mr MEADOWS All right I yield back Thank you I thank the gentleman from Kentucky Mr CONNOLLY Thank the gentleman Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from the U S Virgin Islands Ms Plaskett for five minutes Ms PLASKETT Thank you Mr Chair Thank you all for being here AbilityOne is a procurement program aimed at increasing employment opportunities for individuals who are blind or have severe disabilities Under current law Federal Government purchase card holders are required to buy AbilityOne products such as pens three-hole punches binders such like that Government officials are prohibited from using their purchase card to buy items that are essentially the same as AbilityOne products at a local business You are all—you are aware of that There are more than 1 000 items produced by people who are blind or have significant disabilities and if compliance with the AbilityOne program is neglected thousands of hardworking Americans will risk losing those jobs Mr Zielinski I see you nodding at this program You are aware of it Will the agency purchase card holder still be required to comply with AbilityOne restrictions when making a purchase card through the online marketplace Mr ZIELINSKI So for the online marketplace it does not change or relieve agencies from their obligations under the AbilityOne program And as part of the requirements for the—for the portal providers is to ensure that we have insight into what is being purchased and that they are still able—that they are specifically able to identify where and when a purchase card holder is looking at items that are—that fall under the AbilityOne program and ensure that they are made aware that those—that those are items that are available through AbilityOne So within the program itself we have requirements to ensure that—that agencies are able to continue to apply—to comply with the requirements of the program Ms PLASKETT So they still will be unable to use the purchase cards through that Mr ZIELINSKI So we are looking to have AbilityOne providers to participate through the portal itself and be a part of the e-commerce platform Ms PLASKETT And how do you intend to make that available to them 21 Mr ZIELINSKI The first part is—is in the requirements for the portal providers We actually provided those requirements so they are required to as part of the proposals tell us how they would do so There is a second part is that we will need to work very closely with AbilityOne to ensure that their providers are aware of the program that they are fully participating as well Ms PLASKETT And—OK Great What other procurement laws and regulations are purchase card holders expected to heed when making a purchase through online marketplace and how will GSA enforce compliance with that Mr ZIELINSKI The—again I—I will say that the online marketplace does not relieve or change the obligations of—of agencies from complying with all current applicable laws So those requirements are actually being built into the program itself Ms PLASKETT OK Thank you Can I ask something else about the commercial platform pilot program that GSA currently has out for bid How will its implementation provide government contracting officers the ability to focus on more critical mission focus activities Mr ZIELINSKI If—if I understand your question correctly ma’am what we’re looking for is to help reduce the burden for contracting officers and allow for the purchase of more commonly purchased commercial goods and items and—and by allowing the commercial platform to do those it relieves contracting officers who would otherwise be encumbered by these tasks and activities to work on other activities Ms PLASKETT And those being those other critical mission-based focus activities Mr ZIELINSKI Correct Ms PLASKETT And how will this program differ from GSA Advantage Mr ZIELINSKI So—so there’s a number of different ways in which this differs from GSA Advantage And in this particular place in this particular case for the commercial platform we’re looking at items that are under that micro-purchase threshold Again these are items that are not currently generally purchased in the marketplace So it’s bringing in a different set of providers Ms PLASKETT OK Thank you And last question So the White House signed an Executive Order aimed at preventing counterfeit products from abroad from being sold to Americans who shop online right The e-commerce platform that GSA establishes do not have to comply with specific laws like trade agreements How are you going to ensure that the online marketplace complies with this White House Executive Order Mr ZIELINSKI Thank you That’s a very good question There’s— there’s a couple of ways that I will—I will mention First and foremost it goes back to the information and the data that we will be able to collect through the commercial platform that is currently not available So as agencies are making these purchases online today they don’t currently—we don’t currently have access to information that allows for us to test and to check The second thing is is that we are actually looking to utilize the commercial best practices work with the Department of Homeland Security and the recommendations that they have made for e-com- 22 merce platforms and actually incorporating automation to where when there has been identified providers of these—of these products that are counterfeit or barred or removed that the platform will be able to utilize that information to prevent them from being available to customers Ms PLASKETT Mr Chair just a followup question So how will that interface between you and Homeland Security work and has that been integrated now or is that something for the future Mr ZIELINSKI So there’s—there are actually mechanisms that are controlled by GSA now when one of those companies has been—has been—a product or a company has been barred that that is recorded within a GSA system So there are mechanisms for us to be able to—to do today that—which with we would interface Ms PLASKETT Thank you for the indulgence I don’t know Mr Chair you might want to ask Ms Harris if she believes that that will comply with that but thank you Mr CONNOLLY The gentlelady could go ahead and ask that Ms PLASKETT Thank you Ms Harris do you believe that there will be—the way in which this is being rolled out now do you believe that that interface will take place to ensure that the online shopping will not be done with counterfeit since there’s no specific requirement to comply although I understand that they are trying to work together How is the integration between the two agencies working so that that would happen Ms HARRIS That’s a great question We haven’t done any work to examine it but perhaps that’s something that we should moving forward But based on my understanding of this approach from Mr Zielinski I mean going small and growing in complexity is the way to go Going with the pilot approach and then—and then deploying I mean that is certainly consistent with best practice Mr CONNOLLY Thank you so much Ms Plaskett Mr Cheriyan have you had time to think about the answer to the question I put to you about—one way of looking at 18F you described it one way but I guess my private sector background would say it is a group of consultants who provide technical services to client agencies And given what Ms Harris said about well at this point they are kind of—it is up to them now individually agency-by-agency to come to compliance why wouldn’t you make 18F available to those agencies both to facilitate and expedite implementation Mr CHERIYAN No I mean that’s a—I have had time to think about it There—there is a—it’s clearly an opportunity that we can look at and figure out how to do it We currently are as I mentioned before 18F is primarily a group of experts who deal with user center design digital services and that type of work Our CoE work is all about digital transformation AI Cloud et cetera We don’t have right now in either one of those groups’ telecommunications or EIS expertise I would like to build that expertise or have that expertise or create that capability in order to really provide this kind of assistance to agencies It’s clearly an opportunity Mr CONNOLLY So—— 23 Mr CHERIYAN But we don’t currently—it’s not in our—not in our wheelhouse at this point Mr CONNOLLY Not in your wheelhouse How many people work at CoE Mr CHERIYAN I can get you that number It’s less than 40-ish or so Mr CONNOLLY Forty-ish Mr CHERIYAN Yes Mr CONNOLLY And is the number 185 still accurate for 18F Mr CHERIYAN 18F is slightly less than 100 Mr CONNOLLY Slightly less than 100 now OK The GAO reported on cost recovery for 18F and I thought I heard two different things here The GAO reported previously that 18F was required to have a plan for cost recovery And yet has yet to recover costs or project when it would fully recover costs and meeting the deadline I thought in your testimony you indicated pretty much they are doing that now Is that correct Mr CHERIYAN Yes as of Fiscal Year 1919 we were close to cost recovery We missed recovery by about a small amount of money and that’s fundamentally due to the lapse in appropriations in early Fiscal Year 1919 where we had to wait for some of our contracts to be signed We—— Mr CONNOLLY Because of the shutdown Mr CHERIYAN Yes at that time Mr CONNOLLY Oh Mr CHERIYAN And then as of—for Fiscal Year 1920 we have full plans to be cost recoverable Mr CONNOLLY OK And you concur with that assessment Ms Harris Ms HARRIS We do concur Yes we do We are currently waiting for some outstanding documentation that we have requested Mr CONNOLLY OK Well—— Ms HARRIS However we do—we have looked at the—the plans that they have in place and—and we feel very confident that we’ll be closing that recommendation very soon Mr CONNOLLY Good Strike a blow for liberty That is one The GSA Inspector General—your Inspector General reported that 18F disregarded fundamental GSA IT security requirements and circumvented the CIO when acquiring IT products Now FITARA actually requires by law that the CIO have visibility in all IT acquisitions So we’ve got a situation where according to the in 2017 the IG said well they actually violated our own protocols and procedures within GSA but of course they are also in violation of the spirit if not the letter of the law in FITARA Could you comment Mr CHERIYAN Most certainly As I joined in January 2019 and one of my early readings were the IG reports and the GAO reports and I certainly took them very seriously Prior to joining here I was the CIO of a bank and I understand fully the rationale behind driving that kind of compliance So as of Fiscal Year ’19 and Fiscal Year ’20 all purchases of software have been approved by GSA IT And all of the prior purchases we’ve been working through through a risk-based approach to ensure that GSA IT has got full approval on all of that 24 Mr CONNOLLY I would assume Mr Cheriyan that coming from the private sector you can appreciate the logic behind the bill which was written by a number of us who came from the private sector That we want to empower the CIO to be able to make decisions for hopefully all the good reasons and that circumventing that thwarts our intent and we think jeopardizes the enterprise Mr CHERIYAN I fully understand the intent of the law and it makes a lot of sense Mr CONNOLLY OK In addition to 18F the Technology Transformation Service TTS runs the Presidential Innovation Fellows Program and the Centers of Excellence What is the difference among all of these programs How do we kind of get a cheat sheet to understand the differentiation and the rationale for having them as separate programs Mr CHERIYAN Yes let—let me try and give you a high-level view I’m happy to give you more detail later The CoE program is fundamentally driving transformation leveraging centers of competency Centers of Excellence and we have six of those right now The 18F program is really a user-center design approach focused on—very much on the user-center design approaches or improving the—the citizen experience The Presidential Innovation Fellows think of them as being mid-career technologists who have come here to work in government for two to four years and they are really sent into an agency to deal with—typically working with the CTO of the agency dealing with business or technology architectural issues So there are some agencies where we have Presidential Innovation Fellows providing guidance to a CTO we have 18F doing a particular project on user-centered design and we might have the CoE team driving a program across all of those Mr CONNOLLY So when I went to the White House to talk about the innovation agenda with Chris Little and Mr Kushner there were some Fellows people seconded from the private sector for a period of time to help design the architecture of the initiative Would those have been Presidential Innovation Fellows or might they have been Mr CHERIYAN They might have been I—I wasn’t there but I’m assuming that that was the case I have—I can get back to you on specifically who they were but—— Mr CONNOLLY Right The Fellows aren’t limited to GSA Mr CHERIYAN There are different Fellows The Presidential Innovation Fellows sit within my organization Now there are other Fellows who I’m not—I’m not particularly aware of that meeting Happy to get back to you on that Mr CONNOLLY Ms Harris you talked about the online marketplace and some of the problems with implementation and some of the risks Presumably I guess some tripwire is not in place so we are not going to catch always I don’t know fraudulent products that may be purchased or cyber risk technologies that we might otherwise purchase because we are just not aware of it Could you elaborate a little bit on that and how well are we doing to take protective measures to avoid those risks you outlined in your report Ms HARRIS Yes Well at GSA they are in the very early stages of establishing a risk management program for their information 25 and communications supply chain Right now we have ongoing work for this subcommittee and the full committee associated with the—the 23 civilian agencies and where they are relative to supply chain risk management processes GSA of seven major missed practices has not implemented any at this time There is some draft guidance that they have in place but there’s nothing that has been institutionalized at the organization right now And so that is in combination with this deployment of an online marketplace And again these—these management or risk management practices are internal to GSA So these are what GSA should be following as they procure their own goods and services to ensure that they aren’t counterfeit or compromised in any way But in order to vet offerings on this marketplace they should have a robust process And so if the internal process is still in its—in its infancy then there is you know then—then we have to be very cautious as we move forward with GSA deploying one—an online marketplace for the Federal Government Mr CONNOLLY So I speaking for myself Mr Cheriyan I think the online marketplace potentially is an exciting concept and has a lot of potential making us more efficient streamlining the process save some money for taxpayers But in the public sector it is different than the private sector The private sector something goes wrong with it the CEO can say let’s clean that up We will move you over there and her over here and we will start anew Repackage it give it a new name and let’s do it again and avoid the pitfalls of the past Not in the public sector In the public sector if we don’t get it right going into it you will be hauled before a committee like this to account for messing up And there will be a story in the press and so forth And so it just seems to me that it is worthy of heeding the advice of and the analysis of GAO here to try to get this right at the ground level so that we can realize the potential I think it has And certainly with your private sector background you can see the potential But we can also see the pitfalls if we don’t get it right So I—we are going to be very interested in that We want to be supportive of that but we also want to make sure it has more than a fighting chance once it takes off to be successful With that I have completed my questions for now but I know that you have some additional questions Mr Meadows Mr MEADOWS Just one little followup Mr Zielinski I want to say thank you to you and your staff for being responsive to the request And so I want to make sure that I for the record said thank you The fact that you went out and made a phone call whether I got the answers or not at least it made me feel better And so I want to just say thank you So we will be looking for those answers if you don’t have them already The one cleanup area that I would like is you know you talked about this portal and the fact that you think it is going to save the taxpayers money And you were very optimistic in questioning from the gentleman from Kentucky I am concerned just because I have seen so many great plans that we were going to save money and not just on IT but across the agency The minute the Federal Government gets involved we find that we have real problems 26 So with this portal the fact that you have protests is it a protest without speaking to the specifics of the protest of access to the portal Because here is—the only way we get efficiencies is to allow the free flow of people to come in and actually compete If not then it just becomes another bureaucratic portal that says well if you have figured out our maze and you are able to figure your way in you actually get in and what happens is prices don’t go up they actually—I mean go down they actually go up So you have a high degree of confidence that we’re actually going to create a portal that allows us to actually not only say that we are buying online but that we’re actually saving money Mr ZIELINSKI Thank you sir for the question We actually as part of the legislation are required to provide regular reports on the status of the portal Mr MEADOWS But on the plan as I understand it Mr ZIELINSKI Absolutely sir Mr MEADOWS But not on the results And Winston Churchill used to say ‘‘No matter how beautiful the strategy we must occasionally look at the results ’’ Mr ZIELINSKI So—so sir The—the next report that’s being submitted Report Number 3 actually will provide an outline of the measures of success and how we plan to measure that success and—and kind of the metrics that are in and around that So we actually do have it as part of that plan the development of the success metrics and those are—are to be submitted with the next report Mr MEADOWS So with the number 10 being the most confident that the American taxpayer are going to see real value and actually reduce costs how confident are you that if I go on and I am purchasing through this portal versus going through and purchasing online through another portal that does not require government approval that I will be able to purchase the same thing cheaper on the government portal than I can if I go to some other online portal Mr ZIELINSKI Sir as we—we talk about you use the term cheaper I—I would say that the metrics that we have—— Mr MEADOWS Well let’s put it for a $500 hammer We always hear about these 500 DoD hammers I can go to ACE Hardware and buy it a whole lot cheaper So I guess in reality that is what I am looking at Cheaper means in my mind cheaper Mr ZIELINSKI Yes so—so certainly one of the metrics is price and cost But as we also discussed here today as we are looking at supply chain risks and our ability to be able to recognize and understand what’s being bought and from which sources there’s also metrics in and around those sorts of qualities as well sir Mr MEADOWS So how do you put a value on that Mr ZIELINSKI So it—— Mr MEADOWS For the fact that I am comfortable with the fact that I bought something and it complied How do you put a numeric value on that Mr ZIELINSKI So—so as part of setting out that metric plan we will establish specific measures for—— Mr MEADOWS So you are going to put a dollar amount on that 27 Mr ZIELINSKI For—for those things that are related to price as opposed to those things—— Mr MEADOWS No but you are hitting exactly my you know it is the whole quality versus quantity issue And what happens is is if I am paying $500 for a hammer but you say by gosh it is a good hammer from a good place and we don’t have to worry about Chinese counterfeits I mean there—we have got to get to the point where you let common sense flow into this And I need a dollar amount on that because I can buy all the $500 hammers in the world and feel really good that I’m making a good purchase when a $50 hammer might work just fine And I guess what I am saying is how are we going to measure where I am not coming back and you have ended up—we are ending up spending way too much of the American taxpayer dollars but you say but we got really good quality Mr ZIELINSKI And—and sir as part of our approach and starting small as Ms Harris mentioned utilizing those best practices to start small and be iterative and make those measurements and make adjustments those are exactly the—the questions that we’re going to be answering as—as part of our process to ensure—— Mr MEADOWS So you give a letter grade on the things that the gentlewoman from the Virgin Islands was talking about and we get a dollar amount on the rest of it Mr ZIELINSKI At—at this time sir I’m unable to tell you exactly Mr MEADOWS But you will have that by the end of March Mr ZIELINSKI But for our report—our Report Number 3 will contain—— Mr MEADOWS And when is that due Mr ZIELINSKI Is it April—I believe it’s right at the beginning of April at the very end of March Mr MEADOWS I thank the gentleman I yield back Mr CONNOLLY I am reminded of the fact that this question of quality quantity and price—one of the brand names of men’s clothing today that is considered a brand of excellence got its start selling shoddy uniforms to the Union Army in the Civil War that were notoriously shoddy fell apart and didn’t keep the men warm or protected Today it is a quality brand So there is hope Mr MEADOWS There is always hope Mr CONNOLLY There is always hope I want to thank our witnesses for coming today Without objection all members will have 5 legislative days within which to submit any additional written questions for the witnesses Send it through the chair And we will—and they will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response I would ask our witnesses to try to respond as promptly as possible should there be additional questions for the record Hearing no other concerns this hearing is adjourned Whereupon at 3 30 p m the subcommittee was adjourned Æ