Meeting of the State Council of the USSR October 11 1991 Gorbachev Good afternoon There are many of us here We do not have Niyazov he ended up somewhere in the depths of the continent and Ter-Petrossian is not here—he wanted to come but they have an election campaign there No comrade Akayev they have elections tomorrow In general we can work so if you don’t object I declare the meeting open Now let’s move on to the agenda Please Kravchuk For today I propose only two issues the Treaty on the Economic community and on the draft Agreement of the Soviet republics on the food security program These are currently the most pressing the most important issues They must not only be discussed but be somehow resolved today Move everything else to another meeting Firstly we received some documents just as with the previous assignment only today They are right here on the table and we are not ready to discuss them Secondly there are more important things to do today These two I suggest Gorbachev How do the other comrades see it Karimov Right I am in support Gorbachev Comrade Kravchuk is introducing a proposal to limit the discussion to the first two issues Firstly on the Economic Community Treaty and on the draft Agreement of the sovereign republics states on food security Voices Right Gorbachev And I would also ask for your consent to discuss a third issue If you read how it is formulated then I think you will agree It says here On the procedure for further work on the draft Treaty on the Union of Sovereign States As you remember we agreed with you and on the basis of this agreement the work was carried out with your consent by me Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin and the experts And we sent this draft Therefore we now need to agree on how we will continue to work on this document The issue is not that we will today discuss this project in full but agree on the procedure for working on it Yeltsin A compromise Gorbachev Yes You probably noticed that it is clearly stated here about the procedure for further work That is we will still have to go along the path of joint work and go through some stages at which point we will discuss it as an independent issue in full And today we will come to an agreement because we need to move this issue forward By the way this is based on what was adopted at the extraordinary Congress of People's Deputies And it was said there in the form of a resolution yes by the way and in our joint statement To speed up work on the Treaty on the Union of Sovereign States So everything is logically connected Do you think so Yes Can we agree with this Voices We can Gorbachev And then what about the rest of the issues—remove them Okay Voice A draft appeal to the heads of state shall be attached Before that it would be nice to approve the information adopted on disarmament issues The position of the State Council how it will be Gorbachev Well here it is let's come to an agreement We thought that all the preliminary work that was carried out was clearly known understood But from the point of view of what is next and in connection with the fact that the delegation from the United States of America was here in order to be aware of the world’s reaction to this process we intended to provide this information I will not hold back we wanted to show what this was with charts And we had in mind that the fifth issue would be an exchange of views on proposals for reorganizing the state security agencies so that the approaches would be known to the comrades for the sake of further completion of the work Okay Voice We are ready for this too Gorbachev We just need to consult with the State Council Okay so the first and the second and the third—we have agreed I am putting forward a fourth issue for approval Information in connection with the President's Statement We thought that we would hear comrades Shaposhnikov and Pankin What do you think Or should we make a decision depending on how much time we have left Voices Yes yes Gorbachev In this way Good Fifthly on the reorganization of the state security agencies in the same way Nazarbayev Are we going to make a decision Gorbachev No an exchange of views It's just that you and I created a commission in connection with the fact that the Congress made a decision to reorganize the state security bodies Comrades would need to express their views here clarify your position and make final proposals on this score Karimov Mikhail Sergeevich what Leonid Makarovich Kravchuk said should be taken as a basis You persuaded us on the third issue I agree with this and on the rest of the issues I think if there is time to just exchange views and hear your information but not discuss it Gorbachev Beyond the agenda Karimov Yes Gorbachev So yes Karimov Yes yes and only this way Gorbachev Good Are we agreed on this Good Let’s reach an agreement We have an important meeting today and I want to say a few words before our further work before we move on to discussing the agenda Are we going to make a televised record of this meeting of the State Council or will we limit ourselves to the usual information in the usual order as we have until now Voice As always Gorbachev As always We will not broadcast it in full Voice No Gorbachev No So Okay Thank you comrades from the television services What I wanted to say briefly as an introduction I really comrades think that in general we have gathered for a very important meeting of the State Council I think we all understand this and I attach the utmost importance to it I am motivated to do this by the serious apprehension that exists in society about how the situation is developing in our country how the processes are going and how we are behaving in this real situation Society follows the activities of the State Council and the activities of the current union and the republican and other structures very closely When after the putsch we faced the threat of the collapse of the state the economy and the disintegration of society I must say that then both the leaders of the republics and the President understanding their responsibility and realizing their role managed to prevent the development of worst-case scenarios and came to the Congress with a joint statement I think that it was thanks to this fact that we were able to make fundamental decisions at the Fifth Congress of the People's Deputies of the USSR We did the right thing then although it was not easy and we all remember that heated discussion Society supported the results of this Congress and supported the position of the leaders of the republics and the President We decided then on the main issues on the need to accelerate preparations for the signing of the Treaty on the Union of Sovereign States and the Congress adopted this on the conclusion of an Economic Treaty and on the preservation and reform of the unified Armed Forces we reaffirmed our political external economic obligations and adopted a declaration of rights With these very documents the Statement and what the Congress adopted on the basis of it we have created a basic structure On that basic structure the Economic Treaty and the Food Agreement have now been prepared We are about to resume work on the Treaty on the Union of Sovereign States Through our joint efforts a boost was given to all these processes But I think speaking about this while stating that all this is positive—it is very important—we cannot ignore the fact that the situation is now such and this is how I assess it that we are losing time We are losing time And this causes great concern in society I would not want—and I express my point of view on this matter in no uncertain terms—for our work on the fundamental documents on the basis of which the country republics and society should develop to become hostage to some opportunistic processes and political passions And this is again the case In short we have a great responsibility people are worried whether the State Council will lead to the adoption of these fundamental documents or will our affairs again acquire the character of some form of running in place Anyway I must say that risks of disagreements and even of backsliding have appeared If that happened we must be frank it would I think cause serious criticism in the society directed at us in relation to the activities of the State Council where the Center and the republics are united and for which everyone has high hopes at this crucial stage Therefore today the issues that we will discuss allow us in general to move this process forward to respond to people and remove their anxiety and concern Frankly the time has come to take firm positions and express them People should know they have the right to know this and we should act in this way at this State Council Moreover it seems to me that someone is trying generally speaking to pit us against each other to spread suspicions This is also the case We must remove it comrades The State Council must fulfill the mission for which it was created I would very much like us to work productively at this State Council with an understanding of the enormous responsibility that the very development of our society dictates You know I am in such a mood I will say frankly that until we resolve these main issues here until we reach some common positions we should not leave We cannot keep society in such a state It cannot resolve any specific частные issues It all comes down to a lack of clarity to the failure to resolve these fundamental issues This is what I wanted to say and I invite you dear friends to work thoroughly on today's agenda Now I must give the floor to Comrade Grigory Alekseyevich Yavlinsky I would treat it as engaging in a final exchange of views on the Economic Community Treaty Nazarbayev Which version Gorbachev I think the version which you brought from Alma-Ata Nazarbayev The one that you sent on the 9th the last one Yes Gorbachev Yes yes yes yes Please Grigory Alekseyevich How long do you need Yavlinksy I think about thirty minutes Gorbachev Please If you need thirty take thirty … …Gorbachev Good Please any questions Or shall we not ask more questions now Karimov May I ask one question Gorbachev Please Karimov Grigory Alekseyevich in Alma-Ata we … Gorbachev Please stay seated… Karimov … spoke on this topic You do not deny that today the level of each region each republic is different And taking the example of Germany when they merged with the GDR it is clear that without some kind of stabilization fund without providing assistance to those regions republics where the standard of living is so low it would immediately As you said here—I agree that—free prices free economic ties that is the important direction But when we implement this system release prices freely operate freely—without borders without anything—would this not lead to a situation where those republics which today sharply lag behind others might be put in an absolutely unequal position And they will remain so with their low potential in terms of both technology and production and standard of living And they will stay that way The example of Germany I repeat when the GDR the most developed republic among the former socialist republics became part of Germany it found itself in such a position thousands of unemployed millions of unemployed How do you see this issue Yavlinsky I have several thoughts on the subject The first thought is that to preserve the republic as it is now well let's say this is it we do not sign any agreements and we start it all over in a different way To preserve the situation currently existing in the republic is a very terrible and disastrous thing to do This is my first thought It will not provide any solution It will not answer the question that you esteemed President put absolutely correctly The second thing In this Treaty as it is now in the form in which you signed it there is an answer to this question—that such-and-such an opportunity is open such-and-such an opportunity is not closed you just need to consider how to do it In principle when large capitalist countries provide assistance to less developed countries they provide it in order to expand their own opportunity expand their own market and provide themselves with sales opportunities in that region This is how economic policy always works And to create the conditions there so that the policy itself could work And so that products could be taken out of there at the most competitive price These are really serious economic issues but they are of a strategic nature I stand by the point of view that this issue may well be resolved because as far as I know Belarus has raised the issue of the Chernobyl accident point-blank because it is such a disaster that nobody knows when it will ever end or if it will not end Armenia is raising the issue of the earthquake So these are the issues that need to be addressed In this case we are talking about Uzbekistan If you look at a map of mineral resources it is easy to see that such a concentration of minerals and such a lineup of the entire periodic table as in Uzbekistan is hard to even imagine The issue is to get the right price fairly allow people to extract and export them normally The Treaty sets out mechanisms and how to implement them This is a matter of specific agreements I am convinced that these issues can be resolved by mutual agreement without adversely affecting the other republics Mutalibov Do you rule out the effectiveness of direct economic relations between the republics In your speech you mentioned that in 1991 the republics failed to work in harmony with each other My point of view is this the republics need to interact with each other directly And this is the main thing today Yavlinsky If republic “A” concludes an agreement with republic “B” on the supply of timber to republic “B ” and of bricks from republic “B” to republic “A” this means that both governments must establish a state-guaranteed order including the price upon which the governments have agreed But those who make the bricks if they want can sell them for whatever price they want and to whom they want This is the market And the state-guaranteed order is an abuse of the manufacturer Inter-republican agreements on general economic relations or the economic sphere are one issue and inter-republican interactions on natural supplies is another Over the past year as you know almost no inter-republican deliveries have been carried out Enterprises want state-guaranteed orders but under different terms Voice This includes the idea of the free movement of resources without tariffs In conditions of scarcity and monopoly we create excellent conditions for black marketeers and speculators Yavlinsky Neither tariffs nor customs will resolve this issue Especially since they are now one-sided Frankly they are usually established in relation to Russia And what if Russia takes such steps Imagine then your own market for say the production of technology Or if Russia is not satisfied with the re-export of its oil products The Economic Treaty stipulates that special agreements will be developed on the special list of goods and how to achieve the removal of these restrictions Voice On the evening of September 28 when our experts were working everything was agreed upon But after that changes were made Further the republics are starting to centralize their resources and limiting market relations But in these documents there is over-centralization in the allocation of resources in particular in the Food Agreement Yavlinsky The Treaty is presented as it was agreed upon and initialed in Alma-Ata We have a transcript Ukraine added special suggestions It is not yet integrated into that document Armenia had some suggestions Some of the suggestions are such that they would require an associated membership We studied the Ukrainian considerations We can find mutually acceptable solutions there Several Russian suggestions improved the Treaty considerably—they were adopted That is why this document is different from the one that was drafted with the experts If we cut more substance from this Treaty we should not sign it then It would discredit even the possibility itself of common economic reforms and the possibility of economic agreements Kravchuk Here on every page it says “volume of supplies” to whom and how much And not in rubles but in tons Is our economic agreement separate from the food agreement Yavlinsky First we conclude the Economic Treaty and then we draft the Food Agreement how else We will agree on it in principle I understand what my colleagues have in mind one wants to eat before the Treaty is signed And it is not all clear with the Treaty … Yeltsin Russia states that it will sign the Treaty The main suggestions were taken into account We would like to sign the Treaty sooner The lack of clarity affects the economic state of our enterprises We would like to have all the agreements envisioned by this Treaty before the ratification of the Treaty by the Supreme Soviet Gorbachev There are 15 or 18 of them Yeltsin Second It is high time to stop the financing of entities not covered by this Economic agreement and in general of all the bodies unless Russia delegates their functions to the Center Gorbachev In the economic sphere Yeltsin Yes in the economic sphere And the rest will be decided by the political and the general Treaty And the last thing The direct subordination of the republican banks to the central bank—this is not being well received We need a more flexible form of inter-relations And I would like to say one more time that we are ready to sign the Economic Treaty Gorbachev You have no doubts about October 15 Yeltsin No Gorbachev To the contrary do you confirm it Yeltsin Yes it is confirmed Gorbachev Leonid Makarovich Kravchuk Yes Mikhail Sergeyevich we support the idea—not the idea but the document itself the signing of it I share Boris Nikolayevich’s idea that we should have all the documents before ratification And stop the resuscitation of those bodies because the Cabinet of Ministers no longer exists but the ministries still exist and people receive paychecks And I absolutely agree about the Bank too Gorbachev I think that when you introduce the proposal about the Bank you have in mind that the Bank should be working within the system of a common market Coordination is a different issue Kravchuk There is the treaty of the commonwealth where all the republics are independent in the economic sphere There can be no one in this treaty who would have centralizing functions Nazarbayev I am glad to hear what Boris Nikolayevich has just said There was concern in the republics regarding some statements of different trends Kazakhstan adheres firmly to the positions of the Alma-Ata agreements We must not lose time Every day is valuable Grigory Alexeyevich how long will it take to prepare those 19 agreements Yavlinsky It depends on the expression of political will I think given such serious political support we could prepare the main agreements in a month-and-a-half Gorbachev We could put the question this way from those 17 we pick 5 without which we cannot go for ratification And the other ones could be done a bit later since they regulate specific spheres Grigory Alexeyevich you always ask for two-three months and we give you two-three weeks And it all works out well Just now you asked for a month-and-a-half How long would you need if you created a group We are talking to you … Yeltsin Following this principle—a week-and-a-half Yavlinsky Let’s do this one month and 10 agreements Gorbachev Well Okay We should study this question then The wishes of the comrades are clear a Treaty that is not supported by a system of these agreements cannot be presented for ratification Nazarbayev But why then … Eight republics said in Alma-Ata that they were ready to sign the Treaty by October 15 We three republics signed it in Baikonur in your addresses Yavlinsky presence I spoke about it with Boris Nikolayevich And now what We should wait every month for 10 agreements I counted—there are 18 of them in one case and 7 more in another case 25 altogether When is that gonna happen Are we going to sign the Economic Treaty or are we going to wait Gorbachev We should sign it and refer to Supreme Soviets for ratification Yavlinsky We will do everything possible to do it very quickly But after today’s conversation we should state very clearly and unequivocally that the Treaty will be signed … Gorbachev I think and let the comrades say it too that the Alma-Ata agreement remains in force No later than October 15 Nazarbayev Those who are ready must sign on the 15th—eight or five or four republics Because how long can we go on like this Just imagine that we all broke up into separate states Then in order to live we would have to join an economic agreement We will have to gather together and make decisions—because the pipelines and the railroads go through all the republics Nobody has an army In any case Leonid Makarovich we would have to sit down and draft bilateral agreements and search for a mechanism of interaction Because these treaties are not being implemented Mikhail Sergeyevich I strongly confirm my position and I am calling on everybody who is ready to state their firm position today It is already embarrassing to leave this building and to come home Those who need to think more let them think If that’s what it takes then the chairmen of Councils of Ministers should stay here today work out these agreements and start to live What are we doing Everything is in free fall everything is stopping … Yesterday I gathered 47 directors of enterprises and 58 businessmen of Kazakhstan We talked for four hours And now everything is coming to a halt And again there will be 1 5 to 3 months … We are not making any progress Gorbachev I make a clear distinction sign before the 15th and have the agreements before the ratification Source Mikhail Gorbachev Sobranie sochinenii v 29 Moscow Ves Mir 2021 Translated by Sarah Dunn and Svetlana Savranskaya for the National Security Archive