Record of Dinner Conversation between Gorbachev Bush Gonzalez and King Juan Carlos of Spain October 29 1991 Gorbachev Tomorrow we are opening a conference that has become possible as a result of the end of the “Cold War ” The road to success will be difficult Terrorist acts1 are an effort to disrupt the conference But we must do everything to keep the participants in place Today I spoke with Yitzhak Shamir After we raised the question of the necessity of holding bilateral negotiations here in Madrid he agreed that we could start them here Bush I did not know about that This is a step Gonzalez We are saying that the conference in the end should “give birth to a baby ” But of course at least a “conception” should happen here Overall we must note that all sides have now come to the conclusion that they cannot that it is not in their interest to leave the conference Bush Shamir is a very difficult partner We took very serious measures with respect to credit assurances we were not afraid of the Jewish lobby on which he counts we were 1 Separate deadly incidents occurred in the West Bank Lebanon and Turkey on the eve of the conference Editors 1 not afraid of all his sharp expressions Now he is at the conference But it will not be easy with him Gorbachev When Shamir started telling me that we should hold bilateral negotiations in the capitals of the countries of the region so that he would be close and could participate personally give instructions and so on I said--why should we Mr Prime Minister create a situation like this If we conduct negotiations in the region there will be more emotions more pressure from the press from public opinion You will often have to play on the “other’s field ” Wouldn’t it be better to play on a neutral field In general we are trying to “work” with him Bush This is good We will strive to have the participants of the negotiations themselves carry as much as possible of the burden of responsibility Gorbachev As we stated at the press conference we brought the parties to the negotiating table and we have no intention of disappearing now But the main responsibility is on them now Bush Tomorrow I will make a mainly boring general speech Hope you don’t fall asleep I will call for a constructive approach Gorbachev I said to Shamir you are the first to speak and we are counting on you to introduce a constructive tone I am not going into details tomorrow Notwithstanding all our 2 internal difficulties we are full of determination to play a constructive role in the world And when we create the Union of Sovereign States it will become a powerful positive factor in the international arena But we are facing a serious struggle The coup-plotters have seriously undermined the future of the Union They said they were going to save the country And some people in the press are throwing out the question where are the real patriots now walking free or in jail Juan Carlos Does this really have resonance Gorbachev Yes it finds a certain resonance There are still many people who believe that democracy and the Constitution are good but the main thing is that there should be order Gonzalez For decades people were injected with a negative attitude toward “formal democracy ” The actions of the coupplotters are an example of how this kind of people are destroying something they allegedly wanted to save Nobody encouraged the centripetal tendencies in the USSR as much as they did Meanwhile Europe and the world need the Union Two main circles are being created in Europe--one is in the West leaning toward the EU The other should be in the East It is the current Soviet Union the Union of Sovereign States for which you stand If there is no second circle then there will 3 be no important pillar of stability in Europe and in the world This would be a dangerous vacuum Gorbachev I am constantly saying we need the Union we must not tear the threads that were created over the centuries But our partners in the international arena also need the Union Because chaos and constant instability in our country will create a threat for everybody And I will do everything to preserve the Union of course a renewed one with extensive rights for sovereign republics but at the same time with the kind of center they need that would serve a single economic space ensure defense with unified armed forces ensure a coordinated foreign policy and everything that one should not disrupt--a single power grid transportation and communications ecology etc In our country now many people think that we can separate and then come together again that it would be sufficient just to have free association or a commonwealth But I will insist on a full-blooded Union I will not abandon it Bush We are all concerned about this issue What are the chances in your view that you will succeed in realizing your vision How do you see the actions of the Ukraine And how should one understand Yeltsin’s latest speech By the way Marlin Fitzwater informed me that the first reactions of the mass media in the United States to our joint press conference 4 came under titles like this “Bush supports Gorbachev and turns his back on Yeltsin ” I don’t know maybe he dramatizes the situation but it would be bad if they succeeded in creating such a perception You know that nothing like that happened And at the press conference I tried to emphasize the need of cooperation between the center and the republics even though there were questions posed in a different spirit Gorbachev Yes I appreciate it George I am convinced that we should not allow a situation where Gorbachev and Yeltsin are pitted against each other Bush You promised today that you would tell us all about this in detail in the evening Gorbachev Yes it is not easy to figure it all out In my analysis I separate Yeltsin’s speech into two parts The first one--this is the part that deals with the economy Here even though there are some moments that could cause objections--there are things that are voluntaristic without mechanisms for realization but that is just objective reality and we are working on those now --still here we should emphasize the positive In fact this is within the framework of what I was talking about at the Supreme Soviet it develops and adds concrete details to certain stipulations He talks about the need for financial stabilization and price liberalization These are painful measures and he has finally decided to pursue them 5 And I will support him Because he--let’s give him credit--takes responsibility for the radical painful steps And we really cannot do without them The other part of the speech is political He called me yesterday and we discussed some of it He asked what to say about Ukraine I suggested that he should say that we keep hoping that Ukraine will be with us in the Union and that’s what he said In the speech there is confirmation of the need for the Union it says that Russia will not destroy the Union but there are also things that lead away from the agreements that were affirmed in the draft of the Union Treaty which he and I sent to the republics And the majority of the republics supported that concept and sent us their considerations Yeltsin has also sent his Juan Carlos I understand the situation is complex But here everybody noted the political aspect and first of all the call for cutting the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs by 90 percent One has to think about how such things are perceived abroad Gonzalez This is so to speak a metaphor But a unified state cannot exist with such a “metaphor ” Gorbachev I fully agree with this And that is why I am saying that we are facing a serious struggle because I am calling not for an amorphous union not for an amoeba but for a union state And in the draft of the Union Treaty which Yeltsin 6 and I sent out it says so union state There are some things in the speech that lead away from that Bush And he called me he said that he wants to tell me about the substance of the speech assured that it would be devoted to the economy said all the good things But he said nothing about the other part of the speech How can that happen I don’t understand it Juan Carlos Mr President maybe it sounds harsh but our relationship allows me to ask you this question--isn’t he clipping your wings Gorbachev I would say that is not the right question The problem is somewhat different I think that in his soul he is sincerely in favor of the Union he understands that not a single republic not even Russia can live without it And this realization finds its expression in the fact that he works in contact with me lately we have been working very closely together working very intensely on the Union Treaty However he--even though he creates the impression of a strong and confident person--in reality he falls under influences very easily in particular under the influence of certain forces of people who are saying that Russia should throw off this burden the republics are only a hindrance the union with them is unprofitable and that we need to go forward independently Hence the idea that Russia should take upon itself the status of 7 legal heir of the Soviet Union And this idea even though in a veiled state in a form of denial showed up in the speech And one of the people who accompanies me here Yegor Yakovlev said upon reading this speech one can say that Yeltsin is going to try to destroy the Union but in such a way that he could shift the blame to the other republics But this way is dangerous deadly And that would be trouble for Russia Gonzalez I think he would want to shift the blame to the other republics and to the center Bush But who are those forces you were speaking about Who are these people Gorbachev Gennady Burbulis for example He is a person with great influence on Yeltsin And when a leader falls under influences so easily it is hard to do business with him Here Mr President you were vice president for eight years and now you are in your fourth year as president We have known each other for a long time Tell me has there been at least one time when I gave you my word and did not keep it Bush No it has not happened once Gorbachev A politician could not always give his word but having given it he has to keep it Yeltsin--such is the reality we have to live with--is a person who is not always reliable Gonzalez Exactly I remember talking to him during my visit to the Soviet Union He started by saying that the center 8 is a nuisance to us that they did not need the center and so on I tried to persuade him that Russia needs the Union and the Union cannot be without the center and in the end he agreed with me After that conversation I went to the Kremlin for negotiations with President Gorbachev When I arrived I learned that in the meantime Yeltsin had been talking to the press and said just the opposite perverted everything Gorbachev Yes this is the kind of person we are working with Such is the reality Honestly speaking you cannot let him go for one day You work with him come to an agreement and then it turns out that you have to start everything all over again But I do not want us to be completely disappointed in him I will work with him All in all if you consider his speech yesterday as a whole the positive elements outweigh the negative ones There is first of all the readiness to undertake decisive steps on the economy affirmation of a single monetary system and so on This is important this is the first time he is talking about what needs to be done Today it would be a big mistake to go for a fight for a confrontation with Yeltsin And I will be working with him and with other leaders of the republics By the way they all want to work directly with you to establish contacts to emphasize their relations with you And this gives us an opportunity to let them know of a 9 certain position I can see that you are not indifferent to how things will turn out in our country Bush Yes I received Kravchuk and Kyrgyz President Askar Akayev We do have contacts with the republics and we are trying not to undermine your positions And I always say that we are interested in having the republics find agreement with the center we want to help you and for this it is necessary that you come to an agreement And of course there are the military issues disarmament and nuclear weapons I always emphasize President Gorbachev’s role And when Ukraine started to make statements on these issues this caused great worry Gorbachev Yes these are serious issues But we have to have in mind that politics gets in the way here electoral calculations On December 1 Ukraine will hold presidential elections After that a lot will change I think They already realized what impression they had created with their “outbursts” regarding nuclear weapons and the Ukrainian army Bush Yes senators are asking what kind of a new army of 450 000 men they are talking about when we need to ratify the CFE Treaty Gorbachev However you have to keep in mind that whatever Kravchuk is saying and he is saying different things--one thing in the Crimea and another in Kiev and whatever the Ukrainian Supreme Soviet is adopting this is not the same as the people’s 10 opinion I am convinced that the people of such a multinational republic as Ukraine will ultimately make a decision in favor of the Union because we cannot simply separate from one another in a country where 75 million people live outside of their ethnic units There are 15 million Russians in the Ukraine according to the most conservative estimates Only 40 percent of Kazakhstan is Kazakh Juan Carlos Only Gonzalez Kazakhstan as such is just nonsense Gorbachev Apart from the Union yes And that is why Nazarbayev is firmly pro-Union We never had any internal borders How is it possible to divide oneself how do you cut up everything Ukraine in its present form emerged only because the Bolsheviks did not have a majority in the Rada and they added Kharkov and Donbass to the Ukraine And Khrushchev passed the Crimea from Russia to the Ukraine as a fraternal gesture And when talk started about the secession of Ukraine then a powerful movement against that began in the Donbass in the south and in the Crimea The Crimea finally made the decision that either Ukraine will be in the Union or we are returning to Russia Kravchuk went to the Crimea tried to calm them down The situation is made even more difficult by the careless statements of Yeltsin and his circle about borders and territorial claims This is an explosive topic 11 Gonzalez All this proves that in the modern states the notion of self-determination cannot be taken to the absurd Secession is absurd To what degree can one divide up Up to self-determination of a town That would be the logical result if one starts splitting up Bush You are saying that Kravchuk is maneuvering before the elections But will he be able to win Many people in my country think he would not Gorbachev I think he will win the elections He tells me wait until December 1 after the elections I will be able to speak definitively Bush And you think that after the elections he would definitively speak in favor of the Union Gorbachev I am not sure of that But I am firmly convinced of one thing--it is not possible to tear Ukraine and Russia apart--they will be together Gonzalez Of course it is impossible to tear Russia from Russia it began in Kiev Gorbachev Many things today stem from the immaturity of our politicians who emerged on the wave of perestroika These are very different people I look at them here is a person who yesterday put all his energy into the service of the old regime was its passionate proponent and now he is an ultra-radical a passionate demolisher of the center And that is not before 12 August but now when all the totalitarian structures have been swept away There is no longer a center that would personify those structures And they continue fighting against it Gonzalez This is a typical example of a “pseudodiscussion ” an argument without a subject How can they now fight against the center as if nothing has changed This reminds me of a joke about the president of Colombia who upon coming to power in 1980 announced that he was breaking relations with Spain He was asked why He said because Spain stole our gold Yes they say but that happened 500 years ago That is right he says but I just found out about it today Gorbachev Or the joke about the man who was still blowing up trains in Belorussia twenty-five years after the war He was caught and said I am a partisan But twenty-five years have gone by you are blowing up the wrong things Gonzalez The problem is that the republics see themselves as possessing substantial legitimacy because they recently held democratic elections Of course your main problem is time the objective zeitnot But you were also being undermined by the sequence of events If the same kind of elections were held simultaneously or earlier at the all-Union level then maybe the situation would be different now Gorbachev This is only partially true The first free elections were held in our country in 1989 when people’s 13 deputies of the USSR were elected And the majority of individuals who now are playing the leading roles in the republics in the districts emerged then And that sequence was justified by the fact that our changes started from the top Bush I agree with that Gorbachev But this is not the main thing Our society will not be able to bear such a split such destruction I am sure of that and I will be doing everything for the Union And not for any Union but for a full-fledged one Once I said exactly this to the presidents of the republics if I see that we are moving not to a unitary union state with a popularly elected president with a single economic space unified armed forces and so on then I will not enter the race as a candidate for the presidency I will have to separate myself from it I think that there is a chance to create a full-blooded new union where the republics would enjoy genuine sovereignty but where Russia will play a special role It has objectively the leading forward role But now the republics do not accept any direct leadership The only opportunity for Russia to fulfill this role of hers is through the new center where all the republics would be represented and where Russia due to its weight potential and capabilities would be able to realize itself to lead the others In this one could say lies its historic mission But as I have already said we will have to fight for this 14 Juan Carlos And you believe that you will be able to win in this fight We are with you with all our hearts Gorbachev I think that there is a chance and I am confident that we should achieve it And I speak about it openly When Shushkevich announced his candidacy for the position of chairman of the Supreme Soviet of Belarus he consulted with me and I told him “You are not some kind of politician who has nothing else to do and who does not know any other trade You are a physicist a professor you can come back and lead an institute What do you have to lose Therefore I suggest that you state your position clearly what you stand for ” And he stated clearly for the Union And he got almost 70 percent of the vote And his rival a strong person by the way only got 25 percent And I declare clearly and definitively I am for the union state There will be struggles it will be hard but I will work with everybody individually and all together And if I see that the other concept is winning then I will speak about it and I will not be president But I repeat-we have a chance to create a union state a new state with strong republics but above all a democratic state Gonzalez Democratic but necessarily with a strong executive Strong executive power of course is not a sufficient condition for the existence of a democratic state but it is a necessary condition 15 Gorbachev I absolutely agree with that For us today it is a serious and very difficult problem and I have been speaking about the need to strengthen executive power at all levels for a long time Gonzalez If one talks about the United States there the foundation of strong federal power is in the fact that 60 percent of government spending is done at the federal level And the decisive instrument of executive power is the presidential veto power It is of course a marvelous instrument And more you can win elections by a margin of one vote issue the veto with a margin of one vote--and nonetheless this decision would be respected complied with by everyone without a sound Juan Carlos It is not like that yet in our country They say that only a sizable majority is persuasive Gonzalez You see Mr President Bush how we are jealous of your system However the King is probably not listening I have to admit that the monarchy has served the interests of contemporary Spain quite well I as a person without any “monarchic inclinations ” can say it openly Juan Carlos I heard what the chairman of the government just said We are talking about a monarchy of a modern type But the press needs topics and so they try to “pour acid” into our relationship with the head of the government all the time to depict us as rivals 16 Gorbachev Many people in my country are trying to do just the same--to put a wedge between me and Yeltsin There are people there are forces who are interested in it and are working on it all the time Bush And I have to face the coming year--an election year I will tell you honestly--I think about it with horror We have a striking ability to distort all the issues to waste time on the issues that are not really important during electoral campaigns You never know what will fall down on top of you Of course I do not want Mikhail to compare these concerns with the gigantic task you are trying to solve today It is a stunning breathtaking drama We are holding our breath as we watch it unfold and we wish you luck Gorbachev I see in your words Mr President an understanding of the fact that the preservation and renewal of our Union the solution to our problems--and they can only be solved within the Union--is necessary not just for ourselves although for ourselves first of all It is important and beneficial also for you for our Western partners for the entire world That is why I was telling you today in our conversation that now during the particularly difficult decisive period of transition from a totalitarian political and economic system to a democracy and markets we especially need the support of our partners It is getting late already so I 17 will speak very briefly about one more issue I am meeting with President Mitterrand tomorrow Bush Give my special regards to Francois Gorbachev I will pass them on by all means It is likely that I will have to respond to his proposal regarding a meeting of four nuclear powers What do you think about that Bush He did not talk about this with me personally as strange as that is We know about this idea we might have some questions but he did not address me Gorbachev We have some questions too For example why is China not mentioned what should we do about it We need to think how to react to this idea of Mitterrand There are things there to weigh and maybe to discuss Bush It is really a question--regarding China Gonzalez There is one important thing behind this idea of Mitterrand--he is feverishly seeking a way to finally leave behind De Gaulle’s idea of “strike forces ” Some movement in that direction was noticeable some time ago But you know how to do it beautifully You know when one person lies on a bed and he suddenly changes his pose everybody notices that But when there are four or five people lying on that bed one can make all kinds of body movements unnoticeably Gorbachev That is a good way to put it By the way Mr President your allies--the British and the French--got alarmed 18 when I agreed to discuss limited ABM systems with you They started feeling uncomfortable afraid that creation of such a system would devalue their own nuclear forces And they are concerned that the Soviet Union would abandon its position on the ABM Treaty We of course support this treaty we think that it has contributed greatly to stability Bush I know that they had certain questions We consulted with them I still think that we will not have a big problem with them we will be able to explain everything to them and remove their potential concerns I reconsidered the concept of SDI and now we are talking about a genuinely limited ABM system Gorbachev Well it is really late and tomorrow we will have a big day I think it is time to thank his Royal Highness for the wonderful evening and the magnificent dinner Juan Carlos I was very glad to be the host for such company Thank you for the very interesting conversation We all gained a lot from it Mr Gonzalez and I of course would like to join President Bush in wishing you Mr President success in the great cause of transforming your country Gorbachev Thank you for these words of support Source The Gorbachev Foundation Archive Fond 1 Opis 1 Translated by Svetlana Savranskaya 19