- lt ' ci ·-·-· _·_ ' t J ·t Kissiligei- I am delighted oh_ -e - Ambas dor 'b O is tough basic mission seems to be going well• Your Martin _The military campaigns ai·e going well · ·we have kept Hanoi sH ghtly e vous leaving therri uncertain as to what we will dq B·ut the GVN has been told that they have to fight in t he first line They have done s6 and they have built their confidence They have fought well T-h y ha e _not fought for some tactical enclosures near Cambod1a but they have held ·eyer here else They have disrupted the Nort_h Vietnamese infiltration c6rri4or h ito the Delt • Even the U S Army_ in its great days wo ld have been proud of the operation that the South Vietnamese ran into Svay Rierig The other side can mount an offensive It can have some successes c n take ·Tay Ninh o H ue but it cannot keep either Kissinger It How long could they hold Martin Maybe several months But I do not think they would _do it if they cannot get you to Paris ior a cease-fire in place Kissinger I have no intention o f going to Paris I would like to reply to Le Due Tho I do not want an argumentative tone I have no intention to meet with him He cannot do anything for u I£ he formally requests a meeting and gives me guarantees it would be OK TOP SECRE' 1 i fti - XGDS · - ' SECRET · iQ P S CRET NODIS EYES ONLY 2 Martin I agree The Paracels· affair had a political effect that was positive for Thieu His domestic position is firm Our friends come out and they interview the Saigon chapter of the Worldwide Association o A lien ted Intellectuals so they get a different picture But I think that it ·were to holda vote today 80 percent of the South Vietnamese W9' J l4 - 11ot w nt-to change even·if they-do not like Thieu If the elections a ris aig t etn ehts we re held · the Ciy - would •win 9 0 pe re ent of one un g i J - tij - ·v i _ st · ' ' ·· - · · · · ·· ' Mllitar ily they are holding Politically they are more eiolid than I had th¥ ft t - hope · · · Kissinger · When I made the agreement I thought it might be a two-year thing · Martin Only if we throw it away South Vietnam will crumble economically which will hurt politically if we do not get enough aid for them I do not think they can make sufficient military effort if their economy is in trouble You are on the verge of something which is the only way it could work Th_e CIA tells us that North Vietnam will get $1 2 to $1 4 billion of aid this year compared to what South Vietnam gets They of course use their costs figu-res and no transportation So the figure is lower than our coµiparable value The need in North Vietnam for massive reconst ruction is now great If we can get an aid level here th at is enough to get things going· in South Vietnam · we will have no problems Kissinger • We may get $600 million ·• j · 1 l Martin That is enough Dan Spiegel Humphrey's man changed his attitude when he was out in Vietnam So do others There has been a real change in Vietnam If we get $600 miliion I can get $100 million from· Japan Also perhaps something from the Federal Republic and from France The whole thing will begin to roll In Thailand we started the economic progra m and finally it expanded to the point where it went on by itself We can do that in Vietnam Kissinger I am assuming that things in Cambodia make no difference t 1 TOP SECRET NODIS EYES ONLY - XGDS J 5Eta ET NODIS EYES ONLY 3 artin Can you leapfrog North Vi tnam an the KC and get to Sihanouk if '' directly • i • '• If we c' '-ri get him and a ·few others we would be in great shape • • · ·i f n ' Kissinger I like that idea but I can only do it if I see Sihanouk in Peking Maifiri Ma ybe yo' can get D vicl Bruce ·to do it It would perhaps work • Of course in a real sense it does not matter No matter who controls ' PhilbtJ i Pehri 'No f th Vietnam -Wbulci l ay's be able to ke pt'roops on the South Y etna irtese border • - · · • · • · ' · • • I - · •• _ - ·' •• ' • • __ l issinger • · Then y9µ do not _th that Sot 1 h Vietnam ii weaker now 7 j - · • • •· ' · · • • '• • ' · M a'rtiri ' It is mup h strong er n w than· before The Achilles I heel is the economy in order to pay the spldiers enough If we can get an appropriated le ef·of $6'00 milllon this year I can assure you that the place will tllrn out alright As for military aid we need $90Q million if the Pentagon does not steal it from you That is what they did la st year · They ow want somebody who can b·e responsible at DOD for Vietnam aid They warit von Marbod I think that's like putting a fox in a chicken coop They charged things to Vietnam which have nothing to do with Vietnam like t he R D on the_FSE's If I can get about $1 billion I will be OK One _of Brooks' people asked if I should haye the a uthority to approve every item of aid so as to have some responsibie person to whom they could turn I said that would be alright · Dan Spiegel said that the publicity campaign has go e to the point where the poiitical prisoner issue is no longer prominent on the·Hi 11 Kissinger I don't mind having you testify Martin The GAO has done a report at Kennedy's specific request that could be used against us l issinger We should not have been so defensive about some of the things that came out We do not comment in leaked documents Bob to Ingersoll But we certainly do not apologize TOP SECRET NODIS EYES ONLY - XG 0S Dan Sp egel says that if you want the appropriation you_ can have it · • · Martini' jY_ bu ful v e ' - •''••' · · · · ' hat is why I ha_ve beep -talking to _the commit ee • KissinfJer ·· -· '• g ot to il l ke t p rs ona ly ¢lea r · • Kissinger · ' ' _ · -' ·- llight• will do so after my m _ tirig with th Senate Foreign Relat q_ itt Coxp i l littee m eting next Tuesd y · - -- -· ' · ' ' Martirt ' You can have the money if you want it· -· ·Kissinger If that is the case I will get it Our opponents have seen that Vietnam·is the hinge of our policy So have others Lee Kuan Yew said that we have got to get rough 1976 Martin I can ·do that if you give me the money What I am ·trying to wo k for is a de-escalatio n of the level of violence Kissinger Can we give them a tacit acceptance of a tb ird Vietnam Martin -Only if they know that it is the end of the line be certain of that But tb ey cannot Kissinger - The p_eople who talk abo_ut a cease-fire may have a situation 1ike th3 t in mind North Vietnam wanted a cease-fire fo r political warfare but they ve not w n it The time may come when they ·will accept a cease-fire for a third Vietnam Martin We cannot have it be acknowledged · It must just happen Kissinger ·Martin that I am fascinated by the reaction £ the Poles and the Hungarians They still want the 1tpRQ1 r zone to be acknowledged We cannot do TOP SECRET NODIS EYES ONLY - XGDS ··- - · -··· - ··-·-· TOP SECRET NODIS EYES ONLY 5 Kissinger On your appearances can you wait until after Tuesday have that here How 1orig· can you be here I M·artiri · As long as you want I can make a lot of private visits to a lot of pe_e ple T·he ii et c ii'ks ant ·to · see me · ' An Hie ta' IR'·'shows Whaf' shallI 1 clo · · 1 · ha v no i if r st butif you th ink it'v ri l niake acontributio · i'ca n-do it · • _ _ · · - ··· - ihss'i ig r · L' t us not - o lt -- less we nee _ tcf do ·u to get a positi_ve note There· is· no reason to -begin'a· fight I f1 1vor'one ·on one or small groups Martin On the Kennedy thing I have heatcl nothing good and aggressive it could go well · Kissinger Martin If the testimony is You have not done badly so far My predictions on Kennedy have turned out correct Kissinger Is there anything else we should discuss Thailand etc Such as Laos or ·Martin• I have talked to Kintner His staff is scared of _public opinion In ·Thailand you can have what you want if you handle it correctly Often we did not tell them Ingersoll We told the military but they did not pass it on Mar'tin The military is still there and is still very strong They are all _friends • If you like I can see some of them when I get back As for Laos I hope Charlie Whitehouse can change his ideas There wer e some closing pleasantries ' · - TOP SECRET NODIB EYES ONLY - XGDS