File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R Ford Presidential Library - MEMORANDUM THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTOX aiiCR1ii r L NODIS XGDS MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION PART ICIPANT S President Gerald Ford President Alfonso Lopez Michelsen of Colombia Dr Henry A Kissinger Secretary of State and As sistant to the President for National Security Affairs Lt General Brent Scowcroft Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Felipe Lopez Private Secretary and Son of the President DATE AND TIME Thursday September 25 1975 11 1 7 a m - 12 1 7 p m PLACE The Oval Office The White House The President It is a real pleasure to meet you and have you here have already agreed that we have no problems 4 i ' We Lopez We have no problem at all For example with your AID we have decided that we don't need your help any more You can use the funds for needy countries I -T he President We readily appreciate your cooperation We have had I ther experiences where countries having no obvious need keep on asking w It gives us trouble with the Congress 1 Lopez We are going to get 40-50 percent more from our coffee exports 18 1Why should we ask for aid 1 I sl The Presidenh It is really a fine exa mple and will be helpful erN ' Hen y A Kissinger I I JiH£T NODIS XGDS EXE l 'l 0 N ' ' - -' _UhLn L J- - -- -- --- AUTOUA·l 'ICL S - - _ -- E to det 8J30RE'f-- NODIS XGDS 2 Lopez On coffee we could get along with no agreement but others want to go ahead with an agreement and we will go along We will let Brazil use second-grade coffee to keep their quota The same with sugar On the trade bill we are not affected in any way but we resent the treat­ ment of Venezuela and Ecuador I know it was not the Executive Branch that wanted this The President We have been working hard to get that changed I am convinced it was a mistake because neither country supported the oil embargo I don1t think Congress knew what it was doing Kissinger We are supporting the Green Amendment Lopez I am having lunch with them Is there anything I can do The President I would tell them how Latin America feels about this You can do this effectively because you aren1t affected You can also point out that you are giving up aid and not going to blackmail your own coffee prices Lopez I will do that After all coffee consumption is declining On the drug problem It is a worldwide problem but because of our situation we are the center of traffic I made a strong statement because the New York Times blamed us The Pre sident They blame me for everything else Lopez A small country like us is invaded by people with and without passports by planes boats etc heavily financed from within the U S We don1t have the materials to fight back The President How can we help Lopez We could use technology and economic help We could use helicopters to find where the plane s land We catch them all the time Kissinger We gave $900 000 for that SDElRE'¥ NODIS XGDS l cSl 5GiUiST NODlS XGDS 3 Lopez It is too little The tourists spend $50 m illion in Colom bia It has just gone up to $250 m illion That is not tourists - - it is bribes etc We have both a Pacific coast and an Atlantic coast which m akes it ideal for sm ugglers If you could help us to deal with them we would appre­ ciate it The President We will do everything we can It is a terrible problem for us and we want to do everything possible Do you need technical people or m oney both or what Kissinger I asked Brent to look into the possibility of helicopters have given them elsewhere The President By all m eans we will look into it best way We Are helicopters the Lopez Yes to locate airfields and boats The President I would suggest you m ention this in your m eetings with the Congress If they know you are working so hard to solve it it will help us to get the m oney to help Lopez The drug operators are worldwide problem by just dealing with it in the U S You can't deal with the The President That is right We have found that after the decline in drug use but recently it has been on the rise again and with harder drugs Lopez We can't control m arijuana We try to control traffic in it but we concentrate on cocaine and heroin The President Drug users account for a high quantity of crim e in the U S Their dem ands are insatiable Lopez Now let's discuss Panarn a Laughter to Kissinger your favorite subject Torrijos cam e to see m e a few days ago To Kissinger Do you know hirn £ ca tNoDffi XGDS 4 Kissinger I have met him a year ago Lopez I am sorry to see your Embassy was attacked Kissinger They are making a mistake We are trying to get it done but we have to say certain things And it is terribly emotional in this country and we can't do it until the elections are over Then we can sign in 1977 Lopez Let me be frank have something to show Torrijos says the same thing that he has to The President We sent Bunker down there with a new position Kissinger Yes it was much more forthcoming years though We did start with 50 Lopez They don't think so Let me tell you it is easier for a small country to negotiate with a big one than with one of equal size I would rather negotiate with the Soviet Union than Panama I asked how they would defend the canal They said they had thought of that and offered to let the U S in in case of aggres sion In the Canal Zone they want to have full jurisdiction Kissinger That they can get after the transition period That is not the problem The problem is about guerrilla action and the borderline between civil disturpance and guerrilla action Lopez It is between action against third parties and action between Panamanians Kissinger Yes We do have the right to defend the Canal against third parties We have asked for 50 years but we can slip that Lopez Do you need fourteen bases Kissinger Look we can maneuver so we can give up more but if we have to do it all now and with publicity the Congress will stop it We must have time We sent a different team down there and we found we can give up a lot We can give up a little at a time so that over the SOSeRI f NODIS XGDS ' SISC RM'tNODIS XGDS 5 period they will get what they need But we need to maneuver House just voted again to take away our ability to negotiate The The Pre sident That is right and 32 senators sent me a letter against a treaty They should know that a newly elected President can do a lot that I can't now Lopez They misunderstood I talked to Torrijos I told him it is a conflict between the Executive and Congress and throwing stones at the American Embas sy is not very helpful If you could do something without negotiating Kissinger Outside the discussions Lopez Yes Something you are not going to use Kissinger You think that would help Lopez Very much Kissinger That I think we can do Defense would go along with some of that We had been holding it back for the negotiation but we can do it now Lopez The small things Torrijos has his own enemies who say he is gettin g nowhere after a year If he had something concrete even small it would help him Kissinger We will look at it We had decided against it in the NSC The President Let's look into it Kissin ger I haven't looked at the Defense team report but we can do something The Pre sident If it would help them to get over in to 1977 when we can settle it we can do it Lopez I don't want this conversation about the executive-Congressional relations to get out I won't even mention this to Torrijos Kissinger We can even make progress in negotiations conlude them SB9RET NODffi XGDS We just can't S13GRIiO'i NODJS XGDS Lopez I want to make clear I am not threatening of any threats 6 I am not the bearer The President You will be very well received on the Hill giving up aid help on drugs No threats Lopez I don't want to say that without a treaty Panama could be another Vietnam Kissinger If you could tell them however the attitude of a11 of Latin America so then they understand just what the attitudes are The President I didn't realize until I was preparing for you that Colombia had trans it rights Lopez Yes The treaty of Thomson-Urrutia We would negotiate with Panama after they got control They are wi11ing to give the U S the right of military intervention but as allies not unilaterally What they don't like is the assertion of the right of intervention in the Canal Zone based on the treaty of 1903 The President One of our problems is the Americans who have been there so long They are very emotional and they have great strength up on the Hill -- I don't know how Lopez Over the next 18 months then I will try to present the picture of the two of you working together and that things are moving along Torrijos doesn't always follow my advice but he listens to me The President We were talking in the Blue Room about inflation Colombia is doing better than we are but we both are scared as we look around the world Lopez One way we are doing it is to fight inflation by inflation - - we raise interest rates very high to sop up demand It is working The President Our big problem is fiscal We do have interest rates high but we are running a deficit of $60-80-90 bi11ion Lopez According to the World Bank we made the most radical tax reform in the world More so than Canada We had a fiscal problem but we have doubled the interest rates in one year This is better than issuing more money The meeting ended -SMIPETfNODJS XGDS e tJfL· ---- - Ii ur Cb- At t s w- e n ----H-II- lLg ' Th V Aict x 4L1 I -- h- ­ 1 t r - r L_ __ _ II L » -----­ 1' 1 M n r n- 4v _ ---II ffi A-yt 0 ---'-'--' il--J 7f u- j _ i C1 CJ Do Ii - vv- yu- u _ _ _____ L J __'_d_ I - 7 - - ------- ------ - - - -- ------ _ _--Ly W-- - ClNh -N wf ' h 1 -c - i· vf v hll 7 -J ---- - -- lf - -- - - - - - ­ l '1i l Dlk t vv 4-e J cc crw F- '-­ C b-Jt A Jt dfi il 7 '- - y Jt · UJAC ­ I b - - U - '-- cev-­ ' - fcr-- Q lArA F 7' JnJl- C Q - I ' - -- - P4L - - T- - s l 'd- - - --- - __ - -l- 1 liLfVtl fVMIIA A d l2J v i t II i tk I l i Ii 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