II 2JR IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MC is DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - X MRS DAVID ORLIKOW et al Plaintiffs o D vs c Civil Acti o n No 80-3163 UNITED STJ 'I'ES OP l MERICJ Defendant - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X Culpeper Virginia Tuesday May 17 1983 Deposition of SIDNEY GOTTL I EB PhD a witness called for examination by counsel for the plain- tiffs pursuant to adjournment taken at the Boxwood House Motel Route 29 Culpeper Virginia beginning at 10 00 o 'cl ocl a m before Millie R Ciolino a Notary Public in and for t- lw Sta t e o f Virqin i a at Larqe whe n were p resent on belHd f o f the resrective p arties 1601 Connoctl c ut Ave NW Suilc 30 2 Wa shington D C 20009 Ph onon 202 033-3 590 fl3 l Wl9 2 39 For the Plaintiffs 2 3 4 JN-1 ES C TURNER ESQ and ELLIQTT C LICHTMAN RAUH SILARD AND LICHTMAN 1001 Connecticut Aven N W Washington D C 20036 s 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 For the Defendants LEE R RICKLAND ESQ Assistant United States Attorney U S Courthouse Room 2832 3rd and Constitution Avenue N W Washington D C STEVEN HERMES ESQ CIA Room 7C2A Langley Virginia 20505 I 239- C O N 'I' E N T S EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 2 3 WI 'l'NESS 4 SIDNEY GOTTLIEB Ph D PL IN TIFFS DEPENDl N'J' Mr Turner 24 5 5 6 7 E X 8 l·' Xll Tl3I'I' NO -· -·-- -- ------ -··-·-- ·-- -·· 1-1 I B I 'I' s Mc1rkccl for idcnU - I C'CC i V C' I i n fication and attached Evidence JO Plaintiff's # 7 248 Plaintiff's #8 263 Plaintiff's #9 269 Plaintiff's #10 274 Plaintiff's #ll 276 Plaintiff's ii l 2 279 Plaintiff's #13 296 Plaintiff's # 14 309 Plaintiff's #15 3 31 Jl 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 240 P R O C E E D I N G S ---------2 3 4 5 6 MR TURNER There are presently two matters I wish to address before we continue with the examination First the government has yet to respond to a number of requests we have made for documents and other mcd e1· ials that relate to the subject matter of Dr Gottlieb's 7 testimony 8 certain materials were requested at Mr Helms' deposition 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 J8 At Mr Gittinger's deposition of January 19 of March 14 additional documents and other materials were requested Those requests were confirmed in my letter of March 17 Mr Strickland dditional materials were requested in Mr Rauh's letter of March 29 to Mr Strickland I supplied copies of those two letters to Mr Hermes on April 8 At that time I requested that those materials be supplied before t he first sesssion of your deposition Dr Gottlieb and Mr Hermes stated that those materials would be supplied as soon as possible which he estimated at that time to be 19 within two weeks 20 21 22 At the April 19 session of your depo sition Dr Gottlieb the government agreed to provide certain d o cumcnls and review othe r materials requested by the plc inti ff 'l'h 1 241 requests were confirmed in my letter of April 21 to Mr 2 Strickland and Mr 3 additional materials again relating to the subject matter of 4 your deposition Hermes which also requested certain In that letter I asked that the requested materials 5 6 be supplied before the reconvened deposition and that any 7 materials which were ready be supplied without waiting to 8 complete the government's response to all outstanding 9 requests In a telephone conversation with Mr Strick land 10 on May 10 I again requested the government supply what- 11 ever materials were ready before this reconvened deposition 12 Because we have yet to receive any of the requested 13 materials and because a great many of those materials bear 14 on your testimony Dr Gottlieb we will not be able to 15 complete your deposition today 16 through as many of the remaining questions as possible 17 I We will attempt to move just wanted to that state at the outset in fair- 18 ness to you so you would understand where we stood in the 19 depo sition 20 The seconc1 matte1- is quite br i ef 21 d0posit o n 22 repr e senti n g Mr Helms Robert La Pr a de Af t er Mr elms ' of Marc h 14 we were a pproached by t h e CJ l iwyc1· Mr La Pradc 242 stated at that time that the government was not purchasing 2 a copy of the Helms' deposition transcript and requested 3 that I authorize the court reporter to release th e original 4 to him for Mr Helms' review nd verification 5 In an effort to expedite that review and tu reduce any inconvenience to Mr Helms I authorized that releas 7 on April 8 1983 Although some five and a half weeks have 8 since passed the original transcript of Mr Helms is yet 9 JO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 to be returned to the reporter for filing If that original transcript is not returned by Monday May 23 we will movec th court to a second photocopy of that transcript for filing This is the reconvened deposition of Dr Sidney Gottlieb which was originally scheduled for a week ago Or Gottlieb c0ntacted us explaining that he had to attend a fun- eral on that date and we rescheduled for today at his 1 equc t Dr Gottlieb yo u 1-' eal iz e you are sti ll under oath DR GOTTLIEB Yes I do MR STRICKLAND Of the letter which you mentioneci which outline the plaintiff request £or information which letters would encompass the totality of the informat i on 21 There was one lengthy one 22 MR HERMES April 21st Lhc one that I believe 243 contains the entire list of outstanding requests to that po · 1 2 MR TURNER 'l'hat is correct MR STIUCKLJ ND 4 So the April 21 letter to me believe will encompass everything 5 MR TURNER I sent c opies to both you guys and i believe that it encompasses to the best of my ability of pullln il 7 together every request that was outstanding at that time R MR STRICKLAND And we did have a conversation on the telephone several days ago where you asked if it would be 10 possible to have some materials before or whatever materials 11 before the deposition was reconvened and I said if they were 12 available I certainly would l3 been made available to the U S Attorney's Office by the 14 Agency at the present time 15 None of these materials have So at the moment I don't have any I understood that their review is continuing 16 that they are having difficulty in locating some of the docu- i7 ments which were relied upon during earlier depositions 18 You will recall that certain of the exhibits might have been 19 released under the Marks F'Oll request r 1ncl there is some pni- 20 blem 21 in that case and it is also an old c Jse a nd unfortunately s 22 not i n a As I understand nea t there were over ten thousand documents stack so that is apparently one of the rnattc1· - 24 4 that is holding this up Mr Hermes MR HERMES 2 Most of the stuff has been collected 3 and compiled and it shouldn't be a major difficulty in ge t ti nq 4 this stuff to you in about a ten day period 5 the stuff the major outstanding request we have to compl y MR 'I'lJRNER 6 7 The ARTICHOI E is 011 Will that material be available bv Lhc March 27 date specified in the court order 8 MR STRICKLAND 9 MR TURNER May 27 10 MR HERMES That is the 30-day period that was set 11 at the last conference 12 MR TURNER 13 March 27 And other materials will be available within ten days 14 MR IJERMES 15 MR STRICKLAND Yes sir The last matter which you raised 16 was the original of the deposition o f Ambassad or IIelms 17 understand 18 counsel l9 obviously y o u r 20 21 22 I that is still being revi e wed by Ambassado r don't believe the r e is a n y problem and I ch oic e As I Helms' -- it But I would suq9cs t t h at yo u not is nHWC I will see if I can't h ave h im exped i te t h e rev iew a nd qe t it s igned a n d g et i t re tur ned tu you MR TURNER Mo nd ay is stil l t h e date nut J wi l l 245 be in communication with y o u 2 Whereupon SIDNEY GOTTLI EB PhD 3 resumed the stand and having been previously duly sworn was 4 5 further examined and testified as follows EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFPS i BY MR TURNER 7 8 9 Since the last time you were here Q have you discussed the or Gottlieb subject matter or MKULTRA with anyone I have not JO A 11 Q 12 A I have 13 Q Have you prepared corrections to the transcript 14 15 16 Have you read the transcript of that first session of that first session A initials What I did was to correct each thing and put my and I am prepared to sign it MR TURNER 17 18 19 any changes in Dr Got t lieb's testi mon y th a t 22 the lunch h o u r he has made in t he documen t THE WITNESS 20 21 May I examine that a t graphic c1 l The r e were n o ma j o r c han g es Typo - chan qe s n o subst a n tive cha n qes MR TURNER With th at u n de r s t a n di n g I wil l n ot 211 to look at it 2 3 4 MR S'l'RICI LAND 7 8 9 10 11 Not to my knowled9e I have not even looked at it myself or -- I have not looked at Dr Go tt1 ieb' s changes 5 i if there are no substantive changes i I3Y MR TURNER Q Have you read any other transcript or testimony or Gottlieb since our last session A I have not Q Examined any other documents A I have not Q Reports books or other papers concerning the sub- 12 j ect matter 13 14 15 A No Q There are a few matters that were raised last time that I wish to deal with at the beginning 16 17 Dr Gottlieb you testified as I recall th a t Air Force colonel served as Dr Gibb nns' deput y b u t you couJcl 18 not recall his name 19 A Ye s Q l a s that come t o you A Yes i t has Q Do you r eca l l wh et h er that is ri ght 20 21 22 an llis ncime i s c c n r illcr 2 47 A 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I think that is his name tells me that I may be spelling it wrong Q 4 Ed Giller A Something Ed Giller When did he serve in that capacity I honestly say I would guess it was in the period of -- I don't know I am not sure I have tu can give you a figure and then I was thinking it was in the 60's and that is the best I can come up with Q So he came after Colonel Drum A Yes Q You also testified that early in its existence MKULTRA was more concerned wi tr the defending against techniques of behavior control than with the potential of those techniques as an offensive weapons is that accurate A That is accurate Q Didn't the Olson incident suggest to people at CI A that LSD did have potential as an offensive weapon A Not really no MR TURNER TllE WITNESS Mark this as Let me make one comment on what I 3 c1 j c · I am inferring that you mean to suggest to people in CIA that the -- that they ought to be interested in their offensive u t c CJ earl y they were worried about its uses in offensive wcaponf 11 24 8 opposition that was the whole idea 2 The document referred to was marked as Plaintiff's No l Gottlieb for identificatibn a copy of which is attached to the court copy of l h i deposition 3 4 5 6 7 8 BY MR TURNER or Q thedeposition i t consists of two related documents and I ask you to read it 9 10 11 12 13 14 JS 16 17 Gottlieb I hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit #7 to Witness perusing document Q Who is H M Chadwell Doctor A I think Chadwell was head of a unit in CIA in the early 50's known as the Office of Scientific Information Q What were his functions in that capacity A I don't know that I can answer that very accurate ly except that OSI at that time was part of the intelligence processing and production side of the l gency for scientific information By that I mean they were not involved in collectinq 18 information 19 Q 12 he alive A I really don't know 20 I guess not Ile was 21 ma n at the time 22 O The Lovell referred to i s Stcrnley Love11· i an o l cl I 249 A I believe that is who he is 2 Q Who is he J l Stanley Lovell was somebody who was active in World 4 War II in oss in the technical side 5 Q What was his connection with the Agency 6 A I don't think he had any formal connection 7 memorandum certainly implies R c1cscribe what relation he had with the 7 gency a s ad hoc conL Dc l 9 10 II 12 13 14 Q A 22 I don't know that I would know all his arects of wrote about when he was in 05S Q Is he alive A I really don't know In fact I think he wrote a book about his work in OSS Q Who is George Merck A I think he was the Presid ent of Merck Company 19 21 Did his areas of expertise intlude the use o f druqs expertise They were some of the areas he talked about or 18 20 I woul d and similar techniques 16 17 that contact of some kind with whom they would talk every once in a while I5 - This l ie was on some advisory committee to the camp Detrick activity Q What i s the Merck Company I I don't knc1w how tn clescri hc i t other t h c 1n it iH 2sn a large pharmaceutical company in Rahway New Jersey 2 3 A 4 5 What was his connection wi t h the Agency Q 1 Q It was more with the overall Camp Detrick operatio11 I think that I am not sure 8 9 10 II Q Is he alive A I don't know Q Who is the Quarles referred to in the first page the second point 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 His connection was with the Special Operations Division of Fort Detrick 6 7 None as far as I know him ' I really don't remember who he was I never met I never talked to him the CC at the Q Who is Mr McMahon A Well the only McMah o n I know is a McMahon wh o i s now Deputy Director of CIA At that time 18 part of this memo on December Q I don't k now It doesn't make much s e nse t h at in -- i f t h i s Strike that 19 bottom Do ct o r 1 WciS 53 I d o n't have an y idea That McMahon is n o w the Deputy Di r ect o r n ow wi th 20 the agency 21 22 l I do n ' t k n ow rr her c i s n re a l 1 c 'Is on Lu th i 30 years a go that McMahon was involved with this at r 111 11 k L 11 c1 1 I 251 What was the Schwab Q 2 3 4 s 6 activity at Detrick refer- red to in paragraph 2 in the first page A 1 Referring to the Special Operations Division at Camp Detrick Q Is Schwab a man's name A Yes I think his name is Johe 7 Division t ad of the Special Operations 8 to go to work for 9 10 I1 12 13 14 lS 16 l7 18 19 20 21 22 Q I think and he was He later left Detrick a large pharmaceutical company Why did Quarles and Merck consider that activity unl meri can · i aven't the slightest idea 1 I Q What did that activity involve A It involved covert considerations in the use of biological and chemical warfare from a defensive point of view as far as I know Q What was CIA's involvement in that activity 1 We felt that -- we had a directive we needed to kc c11 in touch with the state of that art bility It was part of U S capa- to be aware of the possibilities in covert use of bio- logical and chemical weapons Q was that MKNJ OMT A I told you last time I qet very confuse2d now about 2 2 the cryptonyms I really don't remember specifically what wa s 2 3 4 5 i 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 I7 subsumed under MKNAOMI Q activity A I would have to conclude the answer is no since it continued beyond this date Q Did you play a role in deciding whether that activity should continue A Absolutely not Q Did you discuss that activity at that time with anyone who was in a position to be active in determinin9 whether that activity would continue A Let me back up a little bit I was not aware there was any activity by Quarles or anybody else to kill the Schwab activity so I couldn't involve myself in that whole question Q Did Dr Gibbons play any role in that A I don't know Q By virtue of his position would he have been the 18 19 Did Quarles and Merck succeed in terminating thdt officer who would have been involved in takinq whatever act ion 20 were necessar y at a hi g h p l a ce 21 22 A I re a l ly c an ' t woo ld be speculative I answer that lhatever T said cin l h i don 't know what the connections he l· vc c 11 2 53 CIA and the military about those matters were 3 December o f 1953 I am not aware of their being any of f icial l ia i s on A 4 5 Who was the CIA liaison to Camp Detrick in Q 2 for policy matters like this I was not aware There could have been one 8 Who dealt with the activity at Camp Detrick for the Q 7 CIA in December A 9 of 1953 That is what I am trying to answer accurately for 10 you I don't know of anybody who was officially designated by 11 agreement by both units 12 Q Whether official or n o t Doctor 13 A I used to go up there myself to keep up with what 4 was happening and so did several o thers that worked with me l5 Q Who else besides you 16 A I think Dr Lashbroo k wo uld go up there and or 17 Bortner would 18 Q Was it when or 'I'riechlc r was with T SS 19 l In t h e per iocl b efor e h e came up i t was t h e th ree 1 f 20 u s and then he ce rta inl y dicl have some con tact with th e m wh en lw 21 c a me in 22 Q Did or Chadwe l l n ess of LSD with you ever discus s t h c offensive use f ul- 25 2 3 A Not to my remembrance Q Did anyone A I can't remember a specific instance o f that kind 4 of discussion taking place but I don't want to say positivel y 5 that it didn't 6 Q 11 A you 14 No I need to have you define the context in which are asking this I said that the entire interest in LSD had to do with possible offensive use 12 13 Aside from specific discussions can you recall whe- ther the topic was discussed at all 9 JO just can't remember a discussion with indi- viduals 7 8 I Q By the Agency A To my remembrance at the top of the discussion that I remember 15 it didn't come up at some time 16 17 during this p eriod th a t was not I can't remember It would be logical I am saying I can't remember a specfic incident or a specific con versation or a person with whom that was talked about It was 18 not the main thrust of our interest in it 19 20 Q In 1953 A Yes Well it was never the main thrust of o u1 · 2 inte re st e 22 Q Th e offensive usefulness o r r n ·i h owever nnc 1 C 2 5' your interests in MKULTRA was it not 2 ' l A Later on it became one but not the main thrust of nu 1 interest 4 Q 5 Did you take any actions further to that interest I need to discuss THE WITNESS i Witness and counsel confer 7 MR STRICKLAND 8 Our referring to the CIA's interest 9 MR TURNER 10 11 12 13 MR activity that might be arguable If we can eliminate that possibility Witness and counsel confer THE WITNESS I answer that is that I am not th ink the most accurate wa y I _ aware of anything we did during period -- I have to ask you to repeat that same question The pending question was read by the reporter 19 21 There is a potential problem with I think or Gottlieb can testify further 18 20 covert related to that question 15 17 In the offensive usefulness of LSD STRICKLl ND respect to foreign 14 16 Would you repeat the question 'I'IJE WITNESS per iod you are That any actions we took during the talking about were all related to our co ncern s about its offensive use agai n st us not our use asrainst some borly 22 else 2 '56 BY MR TURNER 2 Q This is the 1953 - 3 l Talking about the period of the 4 Q You didn't answer my question Doctor 5 6 54 time frame 1 50 's You stated that everything you did related to defensive interests A I could answer it by saying no The question 7 did we take any actions relating to an offensive use 8 you want yes or no answer to that the answer is no 9 Q 10 11 12 13 16 Did you take any actions during that pcri which related to the offensive usefulness of LSD to the CIA not its offensive use the offensive usefulness of LSD A 14 15 And if I will restate it so it is The question was clear on the record Wils The answer is no Witness and counsel confer Q During any time while you were at the CIA did you take any actions relating to the offensive usefulness of LSD tu 17 the Agency JR MR STRICKLAND I would just want to interject at 19 this point that question is very difficult to answer in that e 20 21 22 offensive usefulness has not been defined and you were also askinCJ for Dr Gottlieb to recall a time £1 amc of 1952 to 197 a period of 20 some years Dr Gottlieb is v1illin9 tc i 1 nswc1 2 i 7 that question to the best of his ability but it is a difficult 2 question to answer when it is so general and so broad 3 Witness and counsel confer 4 A 5 BY MR TURNER l 7 8 Q When A I can't specify the time period precise 9 12 13 J6 17 IR 19 20 I would say generally it was in the 60 1 s TllE WITNESS I think you referred to or you are certainly aware of a report that has come up in previous testimony in other cases called the Gottlieb Report And that question is taken up and discussed quite thoroughly there 14 15 BY MR TURNER Q What was the date of that report Doctor A It was approximately brouqh t '61 or 1 62 It was cert2 inly up in both the Church hear inCJ s and the Kennedy hear i11CI s Q What was the subject matter of the report A It w as cl q c n c 1 a 1 t r c c 1 t- nH n t CI in an offensive sense of biolcxJicaily 21 clandestine operations 22 It is not that Witness and counsel confer 10 11 The answer to the last question is yes Q You prepared that report of the po s s i b 1 c us c by r 1 ctive materials in 25 8 3 4 A Yes Q Who was it sent to A It was sent to the then Deputy Director for Plans Richard Bissel 5 MR TURNER Mr Strickland in the last st0t u s 6 hearing you represented that you preferred in the future to h 1vc 7 formal requests made for productions 8 9 JO 11 12 13 14 15 MR 18 ded in some former request I would say yes And the principal reason for that as we explained it to the trial judge wa s s o that there doesn't get to be grave confusion over what ex a ctl y is at issue a d over what plaintiffs need That is why e ar l ie r I tried to clarify which ones of y ou r letters piece t o9 ether with specificity the entirety of wh a t y ou wanted Now if this document reasonabl y f i ts wi th i n l et us say a request f o r p r oduc t i o n th at the pla i nt i ff s f orm e rly mnc1c tell me and that i s qu it e s u ff ici ent 19 MR 20 If we are contemplating material STRICKLAND which is not already part of the record or not reasonably inclu- 16 17 Is that correct ·ru mrnr pre vious reque s t Tt may I wo u ld have to review the We will be requ e sting t his document l w i J J 21 put you o n notice of t h ci l nuw 22 MR men t S'r lUCI Ll ND Tam not fa111il i c11- with the doc11-- I 2 59 't a k e 2 m 1 MR 2 TURNER I am not making a representation at this point what it contains I beli e ve it is What I would suggest is there will in all lik e li- 3 4 hood be matters of both ilk some are contained within 5 previous requests and which are not I will write you a letter after the completion of 6 7 this session specifying those which are contained within 8 previous requests and we will file another request for pro- 9 duction as to those which were not 10 Is that acceptable 11 MR STRICl LAND I think that is exactly what we I don't know for 12 were contemplating at the status hearing 13 instance 14 instance at least we thought a new matter so I think our 15 understanding is barely accurate 16 BY MR 17 18 19 20 '60 'I'lJRNER Q What was that report based on Dr Gottlieb A It was based on a s tu dyt that I made in the perio d s '61 Q What di d y ou stu d y Witness co nf erri n g wi t h counsel 21 22 if the documents from the Canadian Government for A It wa s bas e d on mostly o n interviews wi th Oper c1ti crn 2 60 m2 Officers on their input into what the potential use o f thes e 2 materials in cland estine operations might be 3 Q Ope r ations Officers i nc lu d es CIA f i e ld p eop l 4 A That is what it me ans 5 Q I wanted to clarify the term 6 A Yes 7 Q Prior to the Gottlieb Report did y o u take any si r 8 actions fu r ti sr to the CIA's interest in the offensive usef u l- 9 ness of LSD 10 A Not to my remembrance Jl Q After the Gottlieb Report did you take any actions 12 further to the CIA's interest in the offensive usefulness o f 13 LSD 14 The substance of that report was essentially A It included sort of an intelligence 15 negative 16 tool 17 large disinclination on the part of the American inte l li g en ce 18 officers to use i t when t hat was p ro bably a good t hi11 0 19 That is a preface It was inherently not effective and that there was u My a nswer t o y our n ext que s tio ns g i v es me security 20 21 22 very negative p ro bl e ms Wi t n e ss conferring wi t h cou n sel 2 GJ m3 The answer is yes THE WITNESS BY MR TU I NER 2 3 Q Coming forward in time after the Gottlieb Report 4 what actions did you take further to the Agency's interests 5 in offensive usefulness of LSD Could you possibly explain that 6 MR 7 question a little bit 8 you take to further CIA's interest 9 STRICKLAND MR TURNER I believe you asked what actions did Relating to -- IO MR S RICKLAND 11 MR TURNER 12 Ile answered the question 13 New steps Mr Strickland yes I am asking what steps he took 14 THE WITNESS 15 MR STRICKLAND 16 As a manager or as a researcher We have a security problem So your question is what steps did he take 17 MR TURNER 18 MR Yes STRICKLAND There would be as Dr Gottlieb 19 indicated a se cu rity problem because it was din ctly a 20 foreign covert intelligence operation 0 21 MR TURNER 22 MR current opera t i o ns STRICI LAND I wouldn't be p rep ared to say yes 2 62 mJ-a or no 2 MR TURNER 3 MR STRICKLAND The Government is asserting a 4 privilege based on the statutes and the Executive Order and 5 we are directing him not to answer that question 6 7 8 9 10 1I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 e You are directing him not to answer 20 21 22 265 m6 Colonel Edwards wrote and it stands on its own BY MR 2 3 4 Q 'I'URNER After Dr Olson's death did you have occasion to discuss MKULTRA with Mr Helms Or Gottlieb 5 A I can't remember that 6 Q Did Mr Helms tell you anything about the protection 7 of subjects in future experiments after Dr Olson's death 8 A I don't have a memory of that 9 Q Have you ever observed an individual experiencinq 10 an adverse reaction of any kind while under the influence of 11 LSD 12 MR STRICKLl ND Would you define adverse 13 reaction for the witness 14 medical literature on research and LSD 15 distress effects 16 eyes of the beholder 17 18 19 20 You may be familiar with the It has particular Adverse effects can sometimes be in the can you help the witness with what you mean by adverse effects In other words the literature will reveal thnt most people experience hallucinations 21 Is that an adverse effect 22 MR TURNER I will rephrase the question I 26G m7 BY MR TURNER 2 3 4 Q Have you ever observed an individual experiencin g distress while under the influence of LSD A I think my general answe r to tha t wo u ld be y e s but I couldn't pin tha t down to a specif i c perso n o r time 6 Q Please relate what you can remember 7 A That is what I 8 say I am havin g trouble with sp cc i f ic incidents 9 Q Ge nerally Doctor 10 A Well what is in my mind now is a person exper ienc es ll a set of discomforting bodily reactions such as tremors and 12 s h immering and sort of what I call 13 a certain restiveness and 14 that are not pleasant 15 16 17 18 Q antsyness for want of a bette r te r m and all sorts of feeli ngs On how many occasions did you obs e rve s u ch a r e a c- tion on the part of an individual under t h e in f lu e nce o f A I couldn' t answe r that wi th a ny ac c u rac y LS D' ' T n t h e' o r der o r ma g nitude o f two or t hree time s 19 Q Is that du r in g th e 20 A Ye s 21 Q 7 sidc fr o m the t wo o r t h re e instances refer re d l n 22 1 50 1 s and asi de f r om t h e Ols on i nciden t have you ever observ ed a n 267 m8 individual experiencing any difficult a f ter the immediate 2 3 effects of receiving LSD had worn off A could you say that again please MR TURNER 4 Read back the question The pending question was read by the reporter 5 Witness conferring with counsel BY MR 7 R Q TURNER As to those two or three incidents you referred 9 to during the 'S0's did you observe any difficulty after the 10 immediate effects of the LSD had worn off in those instances 11 A No 12 Q So the Olson incident is the only one in which you 13 14 I5 16 observed someone experiencing difficulty after the effects of LSD A As long as my recollection now goes MR STRICKLAND that is true We would object on the basis that 17 that question presupposed that Olson experienced difficulties 18 from the LSD sometime 19 MR 'l'URNER No it didn't 20 experienced difficulties after 21 quite carefully 22 MR LICHTMAN AJ 1 I said h e I phrased the question It h as been answered anyway 2 Gfl m9 BY MR TURNER 2 3 Q The last time you testified that you heard sometime in the late 'S0's about Mr Blauer's death 4 After hearing of that de a th d i d y ou t ake an y s t eps 5 to pro t ect the h e alth and we ll bei ng o f e x pe ri men t a l su bjects i in MKULTRA 7 A 8 9 Not to my recollection I assume you mean as a result of that information Q Yes sir 10 Setting aside Mr Blauer and the Olson incident 11 did you ever hear of any other death or injury to a person 12 who had received LSD or any other hallucinogen as an experi- 13 mental subject 14 15 A That is a very broad question T guess it incluct cs did I read about anything 16 Q Yes sir 17 A The best I can answer thRt is that I have some 18 vague memory traces of some information way back but I 19 couldn't pin it down So my answer has to be I might have 20 Q Would this have been in the 'S 0 's 21 A I t hin k so 22 Q Again setting aside Ols o n and Blauer did y o u cvr 1· 271 BY MR TURNER 2 Q You have read this 3 A Yes 4 Q Did you supply the drug requested in this letter 5 memorandum Witness conferring with counsel '6 nm 7 WI'l'NESS Wel 1 one 1 itt le problem we arc havi nq 8 I think I explained to you last time the ARTICHOKE team was 9 not in the clandestine services it was an Office of security 10 - ------- mechanism at the time Jj Relating to your question before about supplying 12 clandestine services there is a non sequitur there if 13 that is why you are showing us this 14 15 BY MR TURNER Q I call your attention to the first sentence of the 16 document which says The ARTICllOl E ' l'eam at the rcqucs L o f 17 one of the Agency divisions is going to blank 18 My inference correct me if I am wrong when there 19 is an excision 20 if it is an Agency division 21 clandestine services 22 there is generally an overseas division and MR STRICKLAND it is usually an eumphemism of That wo uld be an incorr e ct I 27 2 assumption 2 for any number of reasons 3 ticular agency component 2 4 domestic CIA locations 3 s 4 agency names or 5 61 above four items BY MR 7 to represent non-acknowledoed to designate overseas locations cryptonyms representing any of the TURNER I just don't remember whether this was filled or A 10 If that was your question not 12 Q That was the question pending Did you supply LSD to other components of the CIA 13 14 A Other components of the CIA 15 Witness and counsel confer 16 THE WITNESS 17 to observe a par- Witness and counsel confer 9 ll they could be There is a question on the table Q 8 e The deletions on these documents could be made I have been directed not to answer that 18 MR TURNER 19 Record read 20 MR Would you read back the question STRICKLAND There wi 11 be a security ob_j ection 21 to this question other than wlrnt is D lrec 1dy o n t h e 1-0coi-d 22 that OTS was involved in LSD experiments ancl of cou r s e the 27 3 ARTICHOKE BLUEBIRD Project may have been involved which was 2 part of the u£fice of Security 3 will be an objection Other than those two there BY MR TURNER 4 Q Did you supply LSD to the Office of Security A As I 7 Q Not in this particular instance 8 A I just don't remember that 5 9 10 precise I say I just don't don' t remember Doctor generall y I will even be more of any instance that 'I'SD supplied the Office of Security with LSD Did you supply the Office of Security with other 11 Q 12 drugs 13 A Not to my rememberance 14 Q During the period from 1951 to 1957 did the ChcP1ic c1 I 15 Branch of TSS conduct research to meet the operation needs of 16 the CIA vis-a-vis LSD and other drugs 17 A Yes l8 Q Were you personally involved in those research 19 activities 20 A Yes 21 Q Those activities included MKULTRA 22 A Yes 274 Q During he period from 1951 to 1957 did the 2 Chemical Branch conduct field experiments with LSD and other J drugs 4 A ' I think I have been directed not to answer that MR STRICKLAND 5 Could you define field e xp er irn e n l for the witness 7 Witness and counsel confer 8 MR TURNER Mark that The document referred to was marked as Plaintiff's No 10 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which is attached to the court copy of this deposition 9 10 11 12 Witness and counsel confer 13 BY MR TURNER 14 Q I direct your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 15 of this deposition field experimentation is referenced in 16 Paragraph 2 a of the notes on AR'J'ICHOKE Conferences which 17 you attended on 21 February 1952 18 Witness perusinq document J 20 21 22 BY MR TURNER Q I repeat my question Did the Chemical Gnrnch c oncJ ucl f ic1d with LSD a n d ot h er drugs cxpe 1- i111c11 l s A 2 As far as this memo is concerned and its relation- ship to what you asked I don't feel it is relevant Durinq 3 this period as I remember a11 sorts of things were talked 4 about and many or most not acted upon 5 help me MR STRICKLAND 6 So the memo doesn't Just to clarify the record 7 field experiments I suppos e could include anythin g from s afe 8 houses in New York THE WITNESS 9 MR STRICKLAND 10 11 Does your question include the full spectrum of possibilities 14 MR TURNER l5 BY MR TURNER 16 -- to covert operational use in some country X 12 I3 Anything outside of Washington D C Q Let's take it in pieces As to the first part domestic field experimenta t io n 17 did the Chemical Branch conduct field experiments with LSD 18 and other c1rugs 19 20 21 22 A I f by wh a t y o u me an fic lcl e xper im e n t ati o ns experimentation o utsi de of Wa shin 0to n Q the an swer i s yes I wi l l ask th e s am e q u cs l· i on with r espec t to activi t i es o uts i de th e Uni ted States 27 6 Did the Chemical Branch conduct field experiments 2 with LSD and other drugs 3 MR STRICKLAND 4 basis of statute and executive order MR TURNER 5 6 We hav e to ob je ct t o th a t on t h e You are directing the witness not to answer that question 7 MR STRICKLAND 8 MR TURNER Yes Mark that The document referred to was marked as Plaintiff's No 11 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which is attached to the court copy of this deposition 9 10 11 12 Witness and counsel perusing document 13 BY MR TURNER 14 15 Q Please go ahead and read it an d I direct you r attention to paragraph 7 of Pla i ntif f 's Exh i bit J I t o Llii s 16 17 deposition What was the experimentation in thP fi J cc1 which w 1i 18 19 20 referred to in paragraph 7 Dr Gottlieb A I don't have the slightest idea I want to clraw your attention to the fact that the qrammar anci synta x of 21 that sentence is such that expe riment in the field c 111 he 22 277 interpreted in six or seven different ways in the field of 2 LSD in the field of phychochemical research in the field 3 meaning of overseas area that CIA operates 4 ambiguous paragraph 5 6 Q A Are you differentiating between training of personnel for field experimentation or something else Il 12 Again I am troubled with the difference between this question and the last one 9 10 Dr Gottlieb were you personally involved in field experimentation with LSD 7 8 it is a very Q Did you personally conduct field experiments with LSD MR STRICKLAND 13 Is this question different from the 14 one we had a few moments ago in which we had a problem with 15 the term field experimentation and I believe you broke it up 16 into domestic and overseas 17 MR TURNER 18 personal involvement 19 ove r se a s 20 21 22 I am asking about Dr Gottlieb's I will break it up into domestic and BY MR T URN ER Q As t o clome s tic f i elcl experi me nt atio n we r e you p er sonally i nv olved 278 A 2 expe r iments that invol v e -- that are takin g pl a ce o u tside o f 3 Washin g ton 4 mean was I aware of them or did I have some thin g t o do with 5 their instigation the answer is y e s 6 Q D c and if by my pe r son a l i nvo lv eme n t you As to the training of pe r sonnel in the d ome stic 7 United St ates f or the c o nd uc t o f f i eld e xpe r imen ta t io 11 were 8 you personally involved 9 A I really couldn't answer that I d er 10 training people for any activity like that during that 11 period The answer to your general question before that 12 tried to be precise and say yes but I don't remember 13 I 14 training people during that period 15 16 17 18 e n cl mf m If by what you mean f ield expe rimen t ations is 19 20 21 22 MR TURNER Let's take a five-minute break at this point Br i e f r ec e ss I MC 27 9 BY MR TURNER 's t 1 3 f c p of' C n t l licb C 2 3 4 Q During the period from '51 to '57 did the Chemic a l Branch of TBS conduct or assist in interrogations A 5 Not to my rememberance Witness and counsel confer 6 I THE WITNESS am assuming that you mean by inter- 7 rogations that can be looked at in a general way and of course R the Hnswer would be yes when people ask other people thin9s 9 I think you are implying to operationally oriented or related 10 interrogations overseas 11 12 13 14 BY MR TURNER Q Or in the United States A Not to my remembrance MR TURNER 15 The document referred to was marked as Plaintiff's No 12 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which is attached to the court copy of this deposition 16 17 IR 19 Witness and counsel perusing document Witness and counsel confer 20 THE WITNESS 21 22 Mark that This is an amazing document to me because it seems to imply I was interrogated and held in a celllike room and I certainly have no remembrance of that kind uf 2 fl 0 ex p er i enc e -2 2 BY MR TURNER 3 Dr Gottlieb it says The blank Q and blank 4 were informed today by Dr Sydney Gottlieb of TSS that when he 5 interrogated blank __ in blank 11 that certainly does not read i that you were interrogated by anyone 7 8 Then I was reading it wrong A Witness 10 or Gottlieb were you personally involved in Q interrogations and the conduct of them 13 17 18 itself Doctor do you remember doing that 21 22 Well I am having a lot of tr o uble w i t lj TIIE WITNESS the words II interrogation 11 I mean in the first place honestly didn I t remember the details of this I read this I interro9atecl somebody and it sounds to me I 19 20 I think the document speaks for MR STRICKLAND 15 16 and counsel confer BY MR 'I'URNER 11 14 was putting a was in there 9 12 I I I I just don't l s am having another -- now it seems to me it says interrogated some people that had something to do with an operational interrogation I am quite confused at thit i point As I say I don't have a clear remembrance of this incident but to the extent 28 1 that it indic tes that I rny§elf was involved in interroga- 3 2 tions of an operational kind I -- the whole thing confuses me 3 In other words what I am reading this to mean is that somehow 4 I reported some conditions around an interrogation to some- 5 body else and this person is saying he is going to look int o i t i 7 R BY MR Q TURNER I understand that My question was were you personally involved during the period from 1951 to 1957 in cnn- ducting any interrogations 10 ll A This is without respect to LSD Q Without respect to LSD generally 12 Witness and counsel confer 13 THE WITNESS 14 15 16 17 18 19 BY MR Q 22 TURNER How many such interrogations did you conduct or assist in during the 1951 to 1957 period A I don't remember the a nswer to t hat question Q Can y o u give us an estim at e A I t was betwe e n one and fiv e Q Were these a ll ov ers eas 20 21 The answer is yes MR STR I CKLAND Ob j e c ti o n 2 f3 2 BY MR TURNER s-4 2 Q Were any of these domestic 3 MR STRICKLAND 4 MR TURNER 5 The same objection You are directing the witness n o t to answer MR STRICKLAND i The objection was based o n the 7 statute protection of source and methods and the Executiv e 8 Order on classification C direct the witness not to answer 10 Il MR TURNER As such we would be required to Yo u realiz e you have asserted that objection as to domestic interrogation 12 Let me say something THE WI'rNESS 13 Witness and counsel confer 14 MR STRICKLAND Yes on two bases There are covc rl 15 operational interrogations conducte d in the United States in 16 certain circumstances 17 tion and the preceding question would almost with certainty 18 end up revealing whether there had b e en forei g n covert activity 19 20 BY MR Q In addition the context of that qu e s- TURNER Dur ing t he pe r iod from ' 51 t o ' 57 did the ChE mic 1 21 Branch u s e L SD o r other d ru 9 s i n int0 r roqc1t i o n s or supply 22 t o o th er compo n e n ts of t h e CIA fur use in i ntcrroqatio n s cln 1 1 283 Witness and counsel confer is-5 MR STRICKLAND Would you read the question 2 3 back The reporter read the pending question 4 MR STRICKLAND Am I correct that the previous qucs 5 tion asked Dr Gottlieb was whether Chemical Branch had supplied 6 LSD or other drugs to other components within the l qency 7 MR TURNER 8 MR STRICKLAND 9 10 MR TURNER MR 12 14 15 It goes to interrogation No STRICKLAND The first question is during component question MR TURNER We will sever it BY MR TURNER Q During the '51 t o '57 period did the Chemical Branch of TSS use LSD or other drugs in interrogations 20 Witness and counsel confer 21 MR STRICKLAND 22 ' 51 interrogation -- that is the first part of the question of the 17 19 the second half of this and '57 did the Chemical Branch use LSD or other drugs in 16 18 Is this question the same question 11 13 Yes MR TURNER Objection State the basis if you are going to direct him please and direct the w i tncs 1 284 MR STRICKLAND i Security I will d i rect th e wit- 2 ness not to answer that question 3 the question is asked in a very general sense There can be 4 covert operational interrogations conducted within the United As I explained earlier 5 6 States I had to make the objection because of the breadth of the question Perhaps if you can restate it or if you 7 have 8 we can be more helpful and the witness can answer the question a document which explains what you mean better 9 10 11 J2 13 14 15 16 17 18 BY MR Q I think TURNER This is a 1957 Inspector General's report on inspec- tions of TSO It was entered as Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 at the Helms' deposition I read from page 200 the second page of the exhibit In considering the objective it is helpful to examine the operat ion- 11 problems that the program is designed to meet One of the major problems is that of improper interrogation techniques Many different methods are used to break down an individual's resistance in int erroqation but there is also doub - ------- ------ abbut the accuracy and reliability of information o b tained by 19 classical methods of pressure duress or torture The use of 20 drugs and psychochemicals in this respect is not new 21 22 So called truth serums have been used sometimes succcssfuJ ly but more often not The approach beinc taken liy 285 the Chemical Division is to use psychochemicals to create within -7 2 the individual a mental and emotional situation which will 3 release him from the res tr a int of self control and induce him 4 to reveal information willingly · under a great manipulation 5 End of quote 200 6 On page 201 I read the folowing Erne 7 results have been achieved 8 developed and are available for operational use 9 concrete Six specific products have been P-1 C-1 and C-9 are discrediting and Three of them disabling materials JO which can be administered unwittingly and permit the exercise 11 of a measure of control over the actions of the subject 12 have been used in six different operations on a total of 33 sub- 13 jects 4 15 l6 17 These •J I will again state the question during the period from '51 to 1957 did the Chemical Branch of TSS use LSD and other drugs in interrogations Is that still objected to I trying to give you an op port unity to remove a frivolous object i 18 on the table 19 20 21 22 I i 111 I MR STRICKLAND The ext r Rct from the l G report basically states that certain drugs have been identified and that they have certain properties J don't believe that the extract in any way says that the CIA h a s actually utilized I 1 11 2 86 those drugs i THE WITNESS 2 MR 3 4 operations These have be en used in si x d i ff e re n t on a total of 33 subjects THE WITNESS 5 TURNER I didn't hear that either It doesn't say anything abou t inte rr o- gation MI'L 7 STRICKLAND And the use of the terms o pcrati 0 11 8 there is not consistent with a covert operational use of the 9 drug 10 ll 12 I can't state what the I G meant by that but I don't believe that document says they were used in covert inter r oq a tio1 s Witness and counsel confer MR STRICKLAND or Gottlieb mentioned for clar- 13 ification and perhaps it is not accurate but what he could have 14 been referring to might have been the safe house use 15 may be off I don't know But the use of the term operationa l 16 there does not go with covert foreign operational activities 17 and it doesn't at all speak of interrogations 'I'he date 18 I suppose at this point I would also like to add 19 that Or Gottlieb i s both willing to sit here and answer the 20 questions t o the best of his ability 21 questions arc asked Did TSS ever clo something 22 his position I would have grave difficulty answering that It is very difficult when I J ✓ E re i 11 287 I question simply from time passage and faulty memory 9 I would 2 respectfully ask if we are going t o inquire into a given are a 3 and there are documents that have been produced that he be 4 given a chance to look at them and then testify to any matter 5 you feel appropriate 1 7 8 I think that way will certainly speed up the procedure and we will probably end up with a more accurate a nd more complete answers 9 10 11 MR TURNER security grounds to the question of whether the Chemical Branch of TSS used LSD or other drugs in interrogations 12 13 I take it you are still objecting on MR STRICKLAND To the extent that includes covert operational use in their domestic or overseas yes 14 BY MR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q TURNER or Gottlieb did MKULTRA involve research intendc to develop techniques of interrogation A To the best of my remembrance MKULTRA initiated supported and carried out research to shed light to provide information about interrogations The reasons I am wording this carefully has to do with this offensive and defensive We were certainly interested in 22 in in terrogation what could be clone w i th LSD Is that responsive to your question 288 Did MKULTRA fund research to try to develop tech- Q Ls• 2 3 niques of interrogation A I have trouble with the phrasing develop tcchniqucf 4 of interrogation 5 am trying to go through my mind and think of a project we funded i It examined techniques of interrogation or developed or where we asked somebody please develop some new 7 methods of interrogation for us we need to interrogate people 8 so please 9 do this That was not a task that was not the set of the experimental work that was set up IO 11 12 13 14 I want to make cle ar I am not talk in g about l R'J' J - CHOKE now That is what ARTICHOKE was all about Q What was your involvement with ARTICHOKE A I had a very peripheral involvement with ARTICHOKE As far as I remember ARTICHOKE went out of existence some time 15 in ' 5 3 and l j 17 1 5 t1 • MR STRICKLAND There ar e several documents th at the goverrrment produced which if my memory i s not faulty 18 forth with s p ecificit y the purposes of MKULTRA set I think 19 or Gottlieb is having 20 THE WITNESS You showed me one last time 21 MR 22 l STRICKLAND I think Dr Gottlieb was havinq trouble with some of the rephrdsinq T am not sure i r it i 1_ 28 9 100 percent accurate or not -11 '1 But I think the documents that we provided set forth with specificity the exact purposes 3 THE WITNESS The main point I was trying to make 4 we certainly were interested in the possibility of LSD being 5 used in interrogations 6 about is that we funded work to teach us how to interrogate 7 people better 8 BY MR 9 10 11 12 l3 14 And you did that A I don't remember doing that Q CIA did not fund work A The primary objective of developing new techniques for interrogation we were trying to get information about -how can I say this better -- I am really not trying to confabulate the issue 17 l8 19 20 TURNER Q 15 16 What I am trying not to be inaccurate I am trying to make it as clear as I know how It has to do with the difference between something I have always objected to namely that this whole program wanted to create a Manchurian Candidate a fiction The program never did that That was as far as I am conce r ned that Mr Marks indul ged in and this questio n you a re asking has to do with that and thi s 21 is a sensitive a rea in my mind 22 Dr Gottlieb three of the six products iclentifi cl 290 in the '57 Inspector General's report under the code name 2 cryptonyms P-1 c-1 and C-9 what was P-17 3 4 5 As far as I remember A History is so full of cryptonyms and cod words I could be wrong on some of them 6 7 Q What was C-1 A I don't remember I really don't 8 Q C-9 A Nor C-9 Q What effects A Let me see if I can help you 9 10 11 C-9 may have been the 12 acronym reading marijuana tetrahydrocannabinol 13 Q C-17 A I can't remember what C-1 is Q Were all three of those materials psychochemicals A Yes 14 15 16 I don't know since I can't remember what C-1 17 is I can't help you with that but these two that I mentioned 18 would be considered in that class 19 Witness and counsel con f er 20 BY MR TURNEJ1 21 Q The '57 I G rep o rt re f e rr ed to six oper a t io n s on u 22 total of 31 subjects What do you know of that 29 1 A I am confused by that statement I don't remember 2 whether that -- let me rephrase it 3 those six operations were or who these individuals were I 4 can't help you 5 relating that generically to whether the inference is about over 6 seas operations or about activities in this country in experimen- 7 tal setting that is not clear to me now based on my recollec- p 9 10 11 12 I don't remember that I am even having trouble tions of events Q Were A I don't know you involved in any of those six operations As I mentioned to Lee here they may have referred to what went on in one of the safe houses on the West Coast 13 That would not be incompatible with that THE WITNESS I don't remember what the New Yo r k was operations in that size 16 MR 17 STRICI LAND THE WITNESS Or Deep Creek Lodge It could have been I don't remember 18 BY MR TURNER 19 20 2 1 the one Witness and counsel confer 14 15 If you are asking me what Q When did you le a ve 'I'S S 7 A To the best o f my remem b r a nce I effect i vel y le f t it in abou g 22 Q I n 19577 g o into t r a i n i nCJ 292 2 3 4 A I suppose it was TSD Q Did you participate in interviews with the I G representatives I remember that inspection and I don't remember what A 5 time of the year it was or to the degree in which I personally 6 was involved If that memorandum mentions the time of their inspec 7 8 tion that might be helpful 9 Q The only date I have is IO A If it was before April I would have to have been if it was after April I may or may not 11 involved 12 July or August I certainly was not 13 '57 If it was The last time you declined to testify on security Q 14 grounds concei ing Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 in this deposition whi c 1 15 contained a statement that you hnd been involved in a p lan to I l 16 LSD in 17 rally 18 lawyers 19 20 I A the drinking water of the speaker ·at a political Have you discussed that security claim with the CIA Not any more than I did at the time thAt we dre talking about 21 MR STRICKLAND 22 'l 'IIE WITNESS T Do you have a copy of think 1is que t i on WclS t h ree ' did WC l 11 i c·1 29 3 about it since the last time and the answer was no Witness and counsel perusing exhibit 2 MR STRICKLAND 4 5 i 7 8 9 JO Il 12 13 Is this document originated by the CIA MR TURNER Yes MR STRICKLAND to the FOI request Pursuant to my question It may have been produced pursuant My question is who originated it MR TURNER It has ARTICHOKE BLUEBIRD and markings in the right-hand corner if you will note MR STRICKLAND the safe houses It looks like they are talking abou · but I could be wrong ' 'HE WITNESS I am confused The question was hRd we talked about it since the last meeting the answer is no 14 Witness and counsel conferring 15 THE WITNESS 16 MR The article deals with several matters STRICKLAND Right I would suggest that perhDp 17 the best way to handle this is as follows 18 standing request for classification review on all of the docu- 19 ments I believe which have been marked as exhibits and that 20 will certainly be done it is being undertaken right now 21 22 MR HERMES You have an out- Isn't there a specific request in y u1· latest set of interrogatories on that incident 204 MR TURNER 2 I can't remember MR STRICKLAND In summary I think that is perh a ps 3 the best way to handle it 4 to change any classification or withhold determinations on th a t 5 document and Dr Gottlieb has declined on advice of counsel 6 to answer questions which would necessarily involve some of tho 7 retracted material 8 point until the declassification review is completed 9 10 13 14 Q 22 Will you now testify a s t o whether y ou did in f a ct of a s p eaker at a politic a l r a ll y MR STRICKLAND Obj ecti o n I d ir e c t hi m n ot to answer pending a classificatio n r e v iew BY MR TURNER Q 21 am confused supply a staff of f icer with LSD to pl ace in t he drinking wate r 18 20 need to know because I BY MR TURNER 17 19 I What are we being asked now 15 16 I think we would have to stand on th a t THE WITNESS 11 12 I certainly don't have authority The l ast time y o u t esti f i e d t hat y o u h a d use d o -ther pseudon yms b esid e s Joseph Scheider but you were n ot permitted to a n s we r as to th e p s eu do ny m Sherman R Gifford Have you d i scu s sed t h at sec u rity objec l i on wi t h the CIA lawy e rs' A No I have not 29 5 Will you now testify as to the pseudonym Sherman R Q 2 Gifford MR STRICKLAND 3 Objection I direct the witness 4 not to answer the same explanation applies 5 undergoing security review by CIA As soon as that is complete 6 we will be in a position to respond The matter is 7 BY MR 8 or Gottlieb during the 1951 to 1957 period did 9 10 the CIA attempt to find out whether there were techniques of producing retrograde amnesia 11 12 TURNER A That was -- my remembrance of that area that was one of the things that we talked about I don't remember any 13 specific projects or specific research we mounted in response to 14 that question 15 16 17 18 That doesn't mean we didn't I just don't remernb r What I am trying to say it certainly was one of the that things we were interested in I can't relate it right now to a specific project Q Retrograde amnesia was was it not a matter of 19 interest to MKULTRA 20 21 22 A Yes it was Q Were you personally involved in any such efforts tn discover whether there were techniques 29 6 A You need to define This has come up before What Be i ng the Administr at o r 2 do you mean by personally involved 3 of the whole MKULTRA project would that be a personal involv e - 4 ment 5 Q Whatever your involvement was either administra to r 6 researcher supervisor or reviewer overseer 7 in any capacity whatever were you personally involved 8 such efforts to discover whether there were techniques 9 A In the sense that I answered you 10 that we had an interest but I can 1 t 1J project and the answer is yes su ervisor in the last question relate it specificlaly to a 12 Q What was your personal involvement 13 A As the administrator of MKULTRA 14 Q What techniques did you look at when attempting t o 15 discover whether there were techniques of producing retrograde 16 amnesia 17 18 19 20 21 22 A As I said MR I can't remember that level of detail TURNER Mark that The document referred to was marked for identification as Plaintiff's No 13 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which i H attached to the court copy uf this deposition 297 BY MR TURNER 2 3 Q I ask you to read Exhibit 13 if you would and see if that doesn't aid your recollections 4 Witness and counsel perusing document 5 I understand what that says but it THE WITNESS i doesn't change my answer 7 BY MR TURNER Q I am trying to assist you A I understand that 9 How to answer does that aid 10 my recollection 1l I still don't remember being involved in discussions like this or translating what I answered in the 12 positive before this specific action 13 don't know what to say I am reading this -- I You say does this aid my recol lecti on 14 the answer is no 15 Q This document indicates that electroshock was one 16 of two physica l techniques which could aid in the production nr 17 retrograde amnesia Would you please tell us what research 18 efforts were undertaken subsequent to February 7 1952 the drltc 19 of this memorandum that involve electroshock l 20 A I don't r emember th at Q Dirl 21 the Cl 0 ver us psychnsurqcr n iser rch pn 7c ts 22 W i tness and counsel confer 1'1 1f WT'l' ERS M· remcmbrr incc i s · l1 1L they clicl l1t1l 29B I can't remember what it was or when it was or with whom it was 2 3 4 5 6 BY MR TURNER Q Was that done through TSS TSD A As best as I can remember yes Q Who was Wilder Penfield Doctor p _ Wilder Penfield as best I can remember is a 7 famed central nervous system researcher I can't remember 8 whether he was located on the West Coast or where his most 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 noted achievement is making a map of the brain in terms of what areas control what parts of the body Q You didn't know he was at McGill University· A Now that you mention it yes there is another fellow at the West coast that did a very similar thing and I couldn't remember which place Wilder Penfield was I want to make it clear to be accurate that I didn't say that he was fro McGill you said that I cc uldn 't swear now it is from McGi 11 I am saying 299 'J'a ke 4 m 1 Q Dr Gottlieb during the period from ' 51 to '57 2 was the CIA interested in the possible applications of 3 electroshock 4 A I think so 5 Q Did the CIA undertake any efforts further to that i 7 interest A llere again I have trouble remembering whether we 8 just talked about whether we actually funded some work that 9 was going on in that area I just couldn't remember that how 10 that was translated into the actual resea ch program or where 11 or when l2 3 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 Q During the period from 1951 to 1957 was the CIA interested in prolonged drug induced sleep in its applications A My reactions to that is a little more esoteric in that I really don't remember that Q Du ing the period from '51 to ' 57 was the CIA interested in the problem of brain washing A Yes Q Please tell us what you remember of that interest A I remember that th e interest was stimulated by 21 some questions that w0re cLi fficult to answer by the behav i 01· 22 o f returned Korean prisoners of war and returnees of Red 300 m2 China and that we asked Dr Harold Wolff and his group to 2 undertake a comprehensive study of this question J Q When was that 4 A I don't know exactly but it was in the period -- 5 if I had to make the best guess I could make was '54 6 '55 sometime like that 7 8 9 Q '53 What else do you remember of the CIA's interest in brainwashing Doctor A Well do you want me to persue the details of 10 this project I mentioned because that is direction that my IJ memory goes 12 Q Fine 13 A The Wolff Group either themselves or got the data I don't remember other projects 14 from the military about these debriefings of J orean pr i sonc r s 15 and they did some work in actually examining or interrogating 16 and I don't mean in the intelligence sense but debriefing 17 the returnees from China and they came out with a report on 18 this question 19 As I remember it it b sically said that they felt 20 that the techniques the Chinese and or the Koreans used we re 21 not esoteric but didn't depend upon sophisticatccl L2c h11 iqt1cs 22 used in drugs and other more technical means but they H l i cc 301 m3 on the more non-technical things like isolation and indoc2 trination J Q Who from CIA was involved in that Wolff project 4 A Well the people who were involved in the Society 5 for the Study of Human Ecology Colonel Monroe certainly was Gittinger was there were certainly others I couldn't 7 remember specifically who monitored and was assigned to thnt R project 9 Q I had some contact with it Aside from the Wolff Project can you tell us of any JO other activities undertaken by the CIA further to its interest 11 in the problem of brain washing l2 A There probably were some other activities This 13 one the Cornell University Medical School was so much the 14 focus and center that I couldn't remember the others 15 probably were others 16 MR TURNER 17 I would like to break for lunch now Whereupon at 12 30 p m the deposition in the JR above-entitled matter recessed 19 the same day 20 21 22 There to reconvene at 1 30 p m 302 m4 AFTERNOON SESSION 1 30 p m 2 BY MR 3 4 5 6 Q TURNER When did the CIA first become in v olved wit h Drs Wolff and Hinkle A As best I can remember when you say CIA I couldn' t 7 answer that because that predated my involvement with them 8 but it went 3ck at least to 1952 9 JO 11 12 13 14 15 Q You say i t predates yo ur involvement who was involved at the CIA A I think the ARTICHOKE Morse Allen and Company had some contact with them Q What were the circumstances of the contact between the Office of Security People A I really don't know They thought he had some expertise they could use 17 recalling the sequence of events that started with Mr 18 son being badly wounded and having part of his brain shot 19 away dur inq the I orea n War and Dr Wolff treated him a ncl they 20 got to know each other that way 21 22 Q As a matter of fact I am now J6 Dulles' At his d eposition Mr Gittin9 er remembered two crypt onyms in relation to the early Co1 ne dl work of Drs 101 i' r 3UJ m5 5 and Hinkle the first was OVERSHO what do you know about 2 3 that project A I just remember that it had a ST in front of it 4 ST OVERSHOE In Agency parlance at that time that was 5 related to a Chinese activity I imagine that in turn relates to an interest in Chinese handling of prisoners but more than 7 that I couldn't help you 8 Q Who was Desmond Fitzgerald 9 A He was the DDP 10 Q In the early '50's 11 A In the early 'S0's he wasn't He was as far as 12 I remember and I didn't know him then his background was that 13 of operations officer 14 East Division and DDP He later became chief of the Far 15 Q He succeeded Mr Helms 16 A I really don't remember that 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 don't remember what the whole aspects of that sucession were Q A Did Desmond Fitzgerald pJ ay any role in ST OVEHSl OJ· ' ' Again for whatever hel p it is to you he was probably the cf ff of the FE Division Q A Far East and t h at is wh en the ST comes i n lt 304 m6 might have been a cryptonym for he inf o rma t i on o n b ra i n 2 washing ou t of the Red China 3 s o mething to do with that 4 en t ailed i n wh ich cas e h e wo u ld h a ve had I don' t r emember wha t 5 Q Is he alive 6 A No he died 7 Q How did he die 8 A He was playing tennis at home 9 He died while he was playing tennis The second cryptonym Mr Gittinger recalled is 10 Q 11 OK HILLTOP 12 13 t ha t What do you know about that project A My remembrance of QK HILLTOP is some sort of transi- 14 tional name for the group of activities part of which was 15 later in M ULTRA 16 That is my remembrance of it 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q It came after ARTICHOKE and before M1 ULTRA OVERSHOE was the Office of Security and Far East Division joint project A I am not sure A I say the ST would make it a Far East division Q 'r h at -- A An d ARTICHOKE that was Office of Security H J m7 Q 2 OK HILLTOP what were the purposes served by that project 3 A I have no remembrance of that at all As I say 4 it was somewhere in between ARTICHOK E and M·KUL'I'RA and exactly 5 what parts of each is covered I don't remembe r at all 6 might have described the early relationship with Dr Wolf f ' s 7 group 8 Q 9 It When did you become involved with the oversight or otherwise involved with the Wolff and Hinkle projects 10 l Jl time in '52 12 13 I couldn't remember exactly but I think it was some It would have been '53 Q What was that involvement A Well it was when the brainwashing study began to 14 tak e shape and it was felt that in general the Office of 15 Security was not really equipped by the background of th e 16 people in it to monitor that support of the project and TS O 17 predecessor group was asked to look into taking it over and 18 we finally did take o ve r th e mo nito rin q re spo n si bi l i ty o f t hnt 19 20 21 22 work Q When did you take over the mo nitorin g r espons ib i l it y A 1 0uld sa y about ' 53 Q How did you mo nitor th at pro ject 306 rn8 A Well I couldn't remember Certainly I myself 2 during that period saw a lot of Dr Wolff getting it 3 organized and I couldn't remember who the project ·- -- _ i_pgc i_f ·--ic - --- 4 monitor was in terms of the person that was very specifically 5 assigned to it -· His name -- let me think for a minute 6 Q Take your time 7 A No I just couldn't remember What I am mixed up 8 about is when Gittinger came to work for me and I know that 9 was later than that it was in '53 and later he and his group 10 were the principles with Dr Wolff when it started 11 remember who that was 12 13 14 Q I couldn't The person who was responsible before Gittinger was that person located in New York or in Washington A Well at first the person was a member of Chemical 15 Branch or Chemical Division and was located in Washinqton 16 later when the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology 17 was organized it might l8 specifically that Col Monroe had that responsibility 19 20 anCI have been but I don't remember Q Was Col Monroe an employee of the Division A In a sense he was He was what we would call and 21 these terms get confusing he was n contract agent 22 I mean he was undercover and he was -- he was not on a U S I3y thn t m9 salary payroll but had a contract arrangement with us In 2 fact 3 aspects of that kind of arrangement 4 full-time for the Chimical Branch under a project that had a 5 name and was funded as a covert activity 6 I couldn't even remember the administrative and fiscal Q He basically worked Now the relationship with Drs Wolff and Hinkle 7 led to the establishment of the Society for the 1nvestigation 8 of Uuman Bcology isn't that correct 9 A 'l'hat is correct 10 Q What was the Society to do for the CIA 11 A The Society was to act in a security sense as a 12 funding mechanism so that the involvement of CIA's organiza- 13 tional entity would not be apparent in projects that we were 14 funding 15 asked them to monitor for us and there were others TSD 16 officers' residents in Washington would monitor and they 17 would be generally aware of them 18 19 20 Q And there were some projects that they did that we Who was in on the decision to establish the Society A Well ce r tainly Gittin ger an d Goo d en ou g h an d 21 mysel f Dr Wol ff Dr Hi nk l e at lea s t tha t numb er of 22 pe o p le An d t h e n o f co u rse we had to get app r ova l from 30B ml 0 whoever our superiors were so that after we formulated th e 2 arrangement in the project we had t o get that approval J little higher ground 4 5 6 Q So you would have had to go to the Chie f o f TSS or A Gibbons and he would have had to have forwarded it TSO 7 to the ODP and if the amount of money was above a certain 8 amount it would have to go up to the DCI Office 9 JO 11 J2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A Q When was the Society established A I think it was established in '54 or '55 I may be off by a year or so during that period was Mr Wisfner Q And the DDP A I think so Q And the DCIA was Mr Dulles A Yes I think that is right Q What was your personal role in creating the I Society Dr Gottlieb A I think the idea came to me from somebody else I don't remember who it could have been Gittinger Goodenough it could have been the people at Cornell and I agreed with the idea ancl translated it into a pro j ect Lhi 1l was approved and funded l 309 mll MR TURNER Mark that The document referred to was marked as Plaintiff's No 14 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which is attached to the court copy of this deposition 2 3 4 BY MR TURNER 5 6 Q I ask you to read the cover memo which is 7 Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 and the attached description of the 8 Society Witness perusing document 9 10 11 J2 A Th s is confirmation about what I said about Project QK Hilltop page 2 Q Directing your attention to the first page of 13 Exhibit 14 in this deposition that is your signature in the 14 bottom right-hand corner 15 A Ye s i t is 16 Q This memorandum was labled for the record When was such memoranda filed 17 18 A I don't rightly remember where it was filed don ' t remember 20 as I can remember 22 Q just It was filed in one of the offices as far 19 21 I Are there any inac c uracies in the me morandum 3 0 ml2 appended 2 3 A No to the best as I remember it is in accor d anc e with the f a cts as I remember them This document was also examined at Mr Git te nq e r' s 4 Q 5 deposition 6 and or Hinkle's names and the Geschicwter Fund were 7 inc o rrectly excised f r om this docum e nt 8 request 9 JO At that time I believ e he agreed t ha t MR TURNER Or Wol f f 's lie made a renew e d I said that to inform or Gottlieb there is no dispute as to the identity of the individuals MR STRICKLAND 11 Yes This document was prob bly 12 originally sanitized in '78 13 individuals have been officially acknowledged so Or Gottlieb 14 is certainly free to answer any questions about those 15 '79 and since that time these BY MR TURNER 16 Q There is a reference to the Geschicwter Fund for 17 medical research Geschicwter Fund Geschicwter has been 18 excised from the document 19 t hat 20 21 22 I beJ ieve there is no problem with When was the Geschicwte r rund first contacted by t h e CIA A I would gue s s it was ' 53 It could have been 31 earlier 2 Q What did that fund do 3 A Its purposes were very similar to the same I made 4 about the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology 5 It was made as a mechanism to funnel funds for reasearch 6 activities where CIA didn't want to acknowledge its specific 7 identity as the granter 8 0 The covering memo on Exhibit 14 of this deposition states that one of the reasons for establishing Sub-Project 60 9 lO was to separate physically the Society from the present human 11 ecology program at Cornell 12 What do you know about that 13 A Just that at a certain point a need was perceived 14 for a mechanism to fund projects and to keep in touch with 15 a certain part of the scientific community that transcended 16 both the interest and the capacity of the Cornell Project 17 the Cornell Project then had the title that was open title 18 of the Human Ecology Study Program 19 brain washing study and other studies that related to it and 20 fed into it 21 22 - - ----- - ----······-··- That was basically the Q How did you know that the need was now beyond the interest and capabilities o f the Cornell people at that time J12 A Well I think this attached memo explains that 2 quite well f ints out that Dr Wolff himself found his 3 resources being stretched his personal time they found that 4 not all of the things we became interested in really fit the 5 Cornell University Medical School as a place to be -- have 6 a foundation or a fund which would give money to other places The general reason was that the scope of the 7 8 activity became too large for the rather small group at 9 Cornell to handle 10 Prior to the establishment of Sub-Project 60 and Q 11 the separation of the Society from the Cornell Medical School 12 campus were projects at other places besides the Cornell 13 Medical School funded through the Human Ecology Study Program 14 I A think so I think there were a few And I think 15 that is when it became apparent that wasn't a qood way to 16 proceed 17 18 19 Q or or A Did you have any disc u ss ion s with eit h er Dr Hi nk l e Hinsey Hinsey I think was the president or chief officer 20 of t he Co r nell Uni v ersi t y Me dic al Schoo l 2 1 Wolf f 's a ssistant 22 0 And Hinkl e was Did you hav e any conversation wi th either of th ese 315 Di r e c tors 2 3 A I don't remember his being active in that role I-le might have but I don't remember his being involved 4 Q What was the role of Col Monroe in the Society 5 A I think that Col Monroe was interviewed and finally 6 hired to become its executive director 7 8 9 JO Let me refer to sornethin9 in this memo Q The Society made grants to researchers who had study areas of interest to the CIA is that correct l The Society would try to eep in __ t _ouch with that ----- 11 part of the scientific Fesearch community which were active 12 in areas that we were interested in and try to -- usually its 13 mode was to find somebody that was working in an area in which 14 we were interested and encourage him to continue in th a t are a 15 with some funding from us 16 17 JR Q Who decided wh i ch of those r e searchers should r ece i ve CIA support in the form of a society o f grant A It wa s recomme nd ed firs t b y t he So c ie t y pe opl e 19 themselves and then i t went t o wh oe v er t he pr oje c t mo ni t o r was 20 whethe r it was Gittin ger or Goo d e nough or whoev e r and th e n 21 it c a me to me 22 Q Mr I f I ap p roved of i t it we nt up s tair s Goodenou g h was he at som e point ca s e offi ceJ Fo1 I 11 6 the Society 2 A He could have been 3 Q You also indicated at the last deposition th a t 4 Goodenough and Gittinger occasionally changed hats over who 5 was in charge of the activities L 6 7 8 9 10 11 A That is accurate Later on other psychologists became had of the behavioral activities branch Q Was the head of the behavioral activities bra nch the individual responsible for the Society A Not necessarily The point is there was one CIA officer responsible for the Society and that changed 12 Q That changed 13 A We had a project monitor for Sub-Project 60 and 14 there was always an individual who was monitor of that pro j ect 15 and that individual changed from time to time 16 Q What steps did you take to ensure if any tha t t he 17 subjects of research funded through t he Society would be pr o - 18 tected from a voidable injury 19 A I think ou r assump t i on p ret ty co ns i s t e nt ly wa s t h a t 20 that was a responsibili t y of th e in ve sti g ato r 21 d ealing with a ci e ntific resea rc her and on t he b as is o f h is 22 own reputation we wen t wi t h h is what e ver cond i tions were We we re 31 7 appropriate under his research setup 2 We had no independent set of guidelines or property call in that area What steps did Mr Gittinger take to ensure that Q J 4 subjects that were research funded through the Society would be 5 protected i I am not sure he took any steps independent than A 7 the ones that I mentioned 8 his My answer would be I assume that what he did or didn't so is the same as what I said 9 Q Do you know of any steps that he took 10 A No 11 Q What steps did Col Monroe take 12 A The same answer 13 Q You don't know that he took any 14 A No 15 Q What steps if any did you take to ensure that 16 individuals who were used as experimental subjects in research 17 funded through the Society were informed of the nature of the 18 experiment its purpose and any attendent risk 19 A I didn't take any steps aside from assuming that the 20 investigator involved was a reputable member of the scien t i f ic 21 community and was taldnq the steps tl1 1t were app1 opric 1l c it 22 the time 31 8 Q 2 were app r op r iate a t 3 4 How did you ascertain he was t aking the steps that A the t ime I don't know o f any spec i fic ac t iv i tie s t ha t were generated towards that end 5 Q What steps did Mr Gittinger take if any to ensure 6 that individuals who were subjects in experiments receiving 7 funding from the Society were informed of the nature of t e 8 experiment its purpose and any attendant risk 9 10 11 12 13 14 A I don't know Q Do you know of any he did take A He may have taken some but I don't know Q Do you know of any that he did take A No Q What steps did Colonel Monroe take if any to ensure 15 that individuals who were subjeats of experimental research 16 being funded by the Society were informed of the nature of the 17 experiment its purpose and the attendant risks 18 19 20 21 22 A The same answer as the one with Gittinger Q Do you know of any steps that Colonel Monroe dirl A No Q What we re you r i n struct i ons to those gentlemen take 31 9 regarding the information to be given subjects and experiments 2 3 end mfrn receiving funding fr om MT ULTRA A I gave no instructions whatever 4 MR TURNER s Brief recess i 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Let's break for five minutes 320 BY MR TURNER is l a e 5 2 3 4 Q Dr Gottlieb when was the first CIA involvement with McGill University with the Allan Memorial Institute A 5 I don't remember that Witness and counsel conferring 6 I was just asking Lee whether 1' -JE WITNESS it 7 would be appropriate to suggest to you because it would cer- 8 tainly help me help you show me what documents you have that 9 10 J1 12 13 14 covers this area because I think I can say in a summary fashion I remember sc few details about this project if you would look through one question like that after another it is going to bring up a whole series that I don't remember whereas you hav e some papers that stimulate my memory or give me a context believe I can be more helpful to you 15 MR 16 I TURNER I prefer to go ahead and ask questions initially and obtain your recollections before J7 THE WITNESS Sure it is up to you 18 BY MR TURNER 19 Q 20 with the 21 l 22 1 first involvmment • n i v e r s i t y 1 Institute that you do recall by the CI A thinq I recall i s hear i n9 about the pn J·j c · again on that ABC documentary totally completely escapes my 321 is-2 mind I just remember vaguely that it existed and no details -2 I had no personal involvement exceptin a sign-off sense 3 visited the place never to my present remembrance discussed 4 the details of the project Q 5 i When did you personally become aware of Dr Came ro n's rcRcarch 7 A I can't remember 8 Q Why was the CIA interested inthe research Dr 9 Cameron was performing I 10 The CIA specifically in TSO and Project MKULTRA interested in anything which bore upon the question of the 11 WdS 12 major changes in human behavior 13 eve r Q What were your responsibilities in relation to 14 the grant made by the Society for the Investigation of Human 15 Ecology to Dr Cameron 16 A My responsibilities as I remem ber them now were to 17 ensure that the work was relevant to the goals of Project 18 MKULTRA and to satisfy myself that the investigator was a seri o ut 19 and reputable one 20 Q You stated that MKUL'I'P A and the Society were inter- 21 ested in findinq research on thinqs which bore o n the question 22 of major changes in human behavior Would you please explain how Dr Cameron's research was fundGd by the Society within Lhr1t l22 is-3 broad category 2 l 4 A hrance comes from viewing this l 13C documentary he was intr rcc 1 ecl in the effects of sensory deprivation in electric shncl 'i I 6 Well as I remember it again most of my remem- am not sure of this but I d ruys or psychochemical believe in the use of psychotropic Each of these things bring about major behavioral cha nge or could 8 Q Why was the Agency interested in those techniques ' such as sensor deprivation electric shock and psychotropic 10 ctrnqs which could cause major chanqes II A Durin c_ r in human behavior that period we were tryinq to ex p lain 12 changes in behavior on the parts of r-eturned prisoners of war n on the part of returned internees from Red China and some epi1 1 sodes of bizarre behavior on the part of American diplomats l5 returning from the Iron curtain these and possibly other 16 areas were candidates for explaining some of these be l1r1 vioral 17 changes 18 Q At h i s deposition Mr Rhodes rcc a llccl c1 l c l tc1· o r 19 memorandum discussing Dr Cameron's research and the p o ss i bi l i ty 20 of CIA interest in i t wh a t d o you kn o w of l h a L lc L l cr J' 21 mem n r a ndum 22 A I d on' t br ancc whatsoe v er rem e mber it wha t soever -- l hie Ve nu r c mcm- I I is-n Q Who evaluated the grant proposal A I don't remember that now Q On page 3 and 4 of the caption for the Society 2 l 4 5 there is described a four phased procedure that Or Cameron proposed to refine upon receipt of funding from the 1 Society Did you read that 7 l Yes Q It involves the use of particularly sensitive elec- R lv1 j--l1N-vv-A J _p ' tr ic shock to the pattern individuals the intensive JO repetition for 16 hours a day for six or seven days of preIJ arranged verbal signals partial sensory isolation and a period J2 of cont'inuous sleep to induce amnesia or depression as phrased l l here 14 Q What was your reaction at the time o f this gr ant t o 15 tha t procedure which I have j us t s umma r i z e d 16 A I don't reme mber that n ow Q Wh a t is yo ur reac tio n now ' A I t is h a rd f o r me t o- a n s wer 17 ' IR I am t ry i n J t o rcacl 19 it and understand it 20 Q Take your time A I 21 rememb er what it s ay s You c 1re askinq me wh a t my 22 reaction is My re a ction th a t it is an unusual piece of 326 research proposed that I would assume that he h ad some psycho- 7 2 therapeutic goals in mind he ment ion s that somewhe re a1n 1FJ t· hc l line and that it was meant f or highly disturbed people that h e 4 5 Ii 7 R felt needed some extreme treatment Q Why was the Society interested in funding research Lnvolving such a procedure A I can only speculate now As I said several times l don't have a remembrance of what my own thought processes were back then 10 Il Ile was talkinq about larqc chanqc 0 in bchnvi oi- ancl that is an area that we were interested in Q Vis-a-vis the specific procedure that is set rorl· h 12 in the application 13 14 JS 16 17 A As I said we were interested at that time in trying to rationalize some behavioral changes that we didn't understand and to the extent that the results of t his kinrl or c1 t rcri I ment would create behavioral changes they were candidates that seemingly this might have happened to the people we were inter- 18 ested in 1ri Q So you were interested in trying to determine what 20 had happened to brainwashing victims and this resedrch bore upon 21 that question 22 A I mentioned brainwashing victims in the sense of I 327 i s- fl people who seemed to have their very fundamental ideas in bohavinral change come out of Korea Red China dnd some chanucs in behavior of diplomats that were returning from behind the Iron Cu rt ain You mentioned earlier that one of the Q Chinese needs was isolation wha t other methods' 7 I am tryinq to recall the requirements of the IIumDn R Geology Study which I think as a summary came out quite a bit after this We are talking about something that we drew conclu- 10 sions about later ll sort of thing there were no conclusions At the time there was an interest in this 12 Q I think your chronology may be incorrect sir l l study I believe you are referring to was eventually made 14 public in Congressional testimony before the McClellan Com- 15 mittee which predated this application 16 17 18 I 20 21 22 A It could be The I am speaking of some publication in the scientific lite r ature that came out o f the Cornell work t hat came out Q lation o r A Regardless wh a t techniques ot her th a n sen sory iso i s o lation were -As I sa y I r e a l ly do n' t reme mber the rc - ults of those with specificity J 2 fl i s -· ' 2 Q Did they involve writing things A The reason I am hesitat i ng my f i rst answe r is I don't remember But I think there was something i n Wo lff 's work 4 5 6 or our own perception they often had to write long confessions That is one of the techniques Q On page 5 of the application the following appears as an o b jective C a n we develop bet t er me thods of inactivating a patie n t during the period of driving exposure to repetition a nd at the same I 11 12 13 I t time mai ntc 1 in him al a h i qhcr level or 1ct iviLy by physiological and chemical a9ents than by the present physiological effects Am ong the chemical age nt s wh i ch we pn - pose to explore with respect to their capacity to pr o duce inac t i vation are the following used either singly or in combination artane anectine bulbocapnine cura r e We propose to use LSD-25 and other similar ag e nts 15 as a means of breaking down the ongo ing pa t t ern s of be h avior Do you r ec a ll h a vin g see n or k n owi ng o f th e Camero n 17 18 proposal to use such drugs I don't remember that n ow 19 A No 20 Q What is artane a-r-t-a-n-e 2l l I don't remember 22 Q Anectine 329 · s -10 2 3 4 s 1 R A I don't know Q Bulbocapnine A I know it is a class of chemical substance called alkaloids Q What are alkaloids A Alkaloids are nitrogenous salts that occur in nature Q What is their effect on the physiology if someone 9 were to receive them 10 IJ J2 A They vary They have different physiological effects That defintion refers to their chemical structure more than to their physiological effects You almost always have a physiological effect 14 Q Is paralysis an effect that some of them may have A Some of them yes Q What is curare A It is a muscle poison IS 16 17 18 it as I remember it The best way I can explain It can be used to paralyze muscles 19 Q Was the CIA interested in curare A Not particularly Q What about bulbocapnine' A The CIA wasn't interested in that whole ranqe of 20 21 J 3 d rugs except the LSD is my rememb r ance L ··-LL 2 l Q Did Mr Gittinger discuss the Cameron application with you 1 A I can't remember that 5 Q Did anyone i A I can't remember I tell you one thine th t wonlc1 7 helr me in answering your questions as accurately and as help- R fully as I can 9 that MKULTRA subproject 10 Q if you have a copy of a memo for the 1 ecorcl for If I could see that I hand you two documents Exhibit 5 in the Helms' 11 deposition and Exhibit 6 both dated February 26 1957 12 you to read them 1 1 Witness and counsel perusing documents 1 1 Witness and counsel confer J5 J i 17 and ask BY MR TURNER Q You approved the grant to Dr Cameron didn't you Dr Gottlieb 18 A Yes I was lookinq at this 19 Q Is that not your signature 20 A Yes 21 Q Did the medical staff at the CIA review the Cameron 22 that is my si0naturc grant application A I don't remember that 331 is - 1 2 2 l Q Did they review any MKULTRA grant app l ication A Not that I remember Q What was Robert Lashbrook's role in f unding th e Cameron grant A I don't remember that MR TUTmEH Mark this 7 The document referred to was marked for identification as Plaintiff's No 15 Gottlieb for identification a copy of which is attached to the court copy of this deposition 9 10 BY MR TURNER II j 2 Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 for this deposition that bears or Lashbrook 1 s name 14 l 'i I 1 17 IR 19 20 21 22 A What I would imagine the date 26 June 19 57 I was effectively out of the job as Chief TSD training for an overseas job As I said I was in and chances are they had not appointed a chief formerly he was Acting Q Who of your superiors approved the fundinq nf the grant to or Cameron A The l rnt thing you showecl me h ad Dr Gibbons' r- i Jn d- tu re on there as I remember it Q Which o E these two documents 5 a nc l G J s Uw DcL11 J l 332 document that authorized the drawing of funds 13 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I am try inq to understand that A I reall at One goes to the Co mp- troller and the other is memorandum for our own records and the y basically leave the information the substantive information out to the Comptroller essentially the same thing with all the subs l an tive inf or ma tion You know they are both signed by the same people Q So Dr Gibbons was the only one of your superiors 10 who approved that II 12 13 14 A Apparently Q In 1977 at the Kennedy Committee hearing you t e s- tified unequivocably that each of the pro j ects f unded under MKULTRA was the subject o f at least two tiers o f review Why IS was the Cameron grant di f fe r ent Ir A I might have either been talking about a period of 17 t irne or an amount of funds 18 maybe I should have J f I didn't qualify it L hat WDY I can't explain that to her than to say J f I am a little surprised reading this now that there isn't anothe 20 level of signature butit might be if the thiny exceeded 21 22 $50 000 Q for instance there would have to be c1nnthc But you cannot reconcile your testimony d Jn d l· 11n 3 3 1 A 2 J Bpproval Q R II I can't remember that now but I would assume it is what I heard and read from the people that worked for me I 4id not have a lot or any independent knowledge of Dr Cameron 9 JO What did you know of Dr Cameron's work when you approved the grant l 7 I might have rnis- My impression is there is still two tiers of recollected 4 5 Well I might have made a mistake Q Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron would subject mental patients to massive electric treatment which involved repeated shocks of high voltage after the initial convulsion was 12 induced 13 MR STRICKLAND 14 THE WITNESS Objection to form answer I don't remember anybody telling me J 'i that 16 BY MR TURNER 17 18 Q Did you hear anything A Let me chan g e th a t Q Do you remember hearing a n yt h i ng l ike t h a t A I Q Did an y o ne tel 1 yo u a nyt hi nq ab11 11l l h t1 I nFtc 1· yn1 1 19 20 21 I don' t r emembe r whet h e r Lh at - just said I don't rememb er approved the grant A 2 Not that I remember Let me draw your attention to the fact that at l some period and it was shortly after this 4 so that may explain why I didn't hear more about these things 'i why I can't remember pretty much anything of this project Q 7 I was not on the seen Did anyone tell you that Or Cameron would administc I Sf to mental patients and then interrogate them 8 MR STRICKLAND Objection to form HE WITNESS 10 11 No BY MR TURNER Q Did you hear anything about that after you dpprovccl 12 the grant 13 14 I 'i A No not to my remembrance Q Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron would employ prolonged sensory deprivation on patients conf ininq them to an j j isolation chamber for periods of up to 35 days 17 MR STRICKLAND Objection The question is did J8 anybody tell me that is that your quest inn 19 MR TURNER Yes 20 THE WITNESS Not that I remember 21 BY MR 22 Q TURNER Did you hear anything of that 135 A 2 I heard about it when I reviewed the ABC documentary that I mentioned I Q Until that documentary you had heard nothing 4 I don't remember Q Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron would continue h tn administer drugs such as LSD and use the massive electro- 7 shock treatments I described until the mental patients 8 depatterned C MR STRICKLAND 10 11 were MR LICHTMAN Objection to form I wou1cl like to 1mclcrstc1nc'I 1 hC' nature of tho objection J2 MR STRICKLAND 13 MR LICil'rMAN Form You can ask was he inf orme d o f t h at I 1 information l5 J6 Was he told that Is there anything on the r ecords MR STRICKLAND which establishes that fact 17 It doesn't matter MR LICHTMAN The q uestion is J8 was he told that 10 MR STR I CKLAND I a m n ot trv i nq to ar0ue 20 g oing to preserve the o bjectio n I J am a m qo in q to preserv e t h e 21 objection 22 THE WITNESS I don't remember b e ing to l d that 336 BY MR TURNER 2 l Q 11 Did anyone tell you that when a subject has been depatterned 11 • his or her mental processes are severely irnpa ired 4 that the subject is terribly confused and disorganized and that s the depatterning so affects the central nervous system that the i 7 subject is often unable to even control his or her body function 8 l I don't remember anybody telling m e Q Did you hear anything about that after you approved --- 9 10 the grant 1J 12 1J A No or at least I can't remember hearing that Q Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron would subject mental patients to psychic drivin g after the y had be en s uf - 14 ficiently depatterned 15 MR STRICKLAND 16 THE WITNESS Objection I don't remember anybody telling me 17 that 18 MR 'T'URN - R T s L o l haL objccl i o n as Ln rnrm Lhdl I' included in the Cameron form application Mr Strickl a na 20 21 22 MR STRICKLAND You have asked a wh o le s erie s of questions which I think they presuppose factr- not i n r vi clcn c c I cannot conduct a review of all the records which mig ht h a ve be1 337 I introduced so far and the exhibits so if I was incorrect in 2 l 4 that last one I will apologize I think the objections were preserved with a minimum of interruption to you and the witness was allowed to answer s BY MR Q TURNER Did anyone tell you that psychic driving sessions would last from 6 00 a m to 9 00 p m and would consist of the 8 continuously repeated playing of a statement from a loop tape recorder 10 MR IJ STRICKLAND THB WITNESS Objection I don't remember anybndy tcllinq rnc 12 that BY MR Q TURNER Did anyone tell you that those tapes would be played through speakers in the patient's pillows or throuqh head Jli sets worn by the patient so they could not avoid hearing the I7 message J8 MR STRICKLAND Objection 19 THE WITNESS I don't remember anybody telling me 20 that 2J BY MR TURNER 22 Q Did anyone tell you that over the usual 20-day l J B pshchic driving period a patient would be forced to listen to 2 those statements some one-quarter to one-half million times l MR 4 'i STRICKLAND THE WITNESS ------- I don't remember anybody telling me that i BY MR TURNER '1 Q Objection Did anyone tell you that in some instances patients would be subjected to the psychic driving experiments which I 9 have described for periods of up to 60 or 90 days 10 MR STRICKLAND 11 THE WITNESS I Objection don't remember anybody te 11 i ng me 12 that BY MR 14 Q l5 TURNER Did anyone tell you that to ensure they would listen to the psychic driving statements patients would receive parv- lytic injections of bees wax and curare 17 MR J8 STRICKLAND Tim WI'J 'NESS Objection I don't remember anybody tc L l inc_i me J9 that 20 BY MR TURNER 21 Q After yo u appro v e d t h e qra n t dicl yriu hc 11- iny nf l l these facts about p s y chi c driving 339 A I did not 2 Q Aside from the ABC documentary l A I don't remember hearing that 4 you shortly after that I 5 about three or four years 6 Q left TSO and didn't come back for Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron would adminis- 7 l er a variety of drugs which would cause pat i en t s R 1 eriods of up to 40 days in an effort to induce amnesia in those I 10 psychic driving MR STRICKLAND 12 THE WITNESS 1J 14 J 5 16 17 18 19 20 22 to slccr for patients after they had been depatterned and then subjected to 11 21 As I mentioned to BY MR Q Objection I don't remember being told that TURNER Did you hear anything about that after you approved the grant A Not that I remember Q What is the intelligenc purpose served by tcstj_nq methods of inducing amnesia Dr Gottlieb A In the context of our research at that time as I s1-1id we were interested in chan 9cs in human bchav i o - Uwl mi ql1L shed some light on _these phenomenal brainwashing fu n damental changes of attitude 34 0 Q 2 Isn't it true that the Office of Security and the intelligence people were greatly interested in finding ways to l make CIA people forget secrets so if they were interrogated by 4 foreigners their secret would be safe MR STRICKLAND 'l'IIF WITNESS ' T don't rem cm be r BY MR TURNER 7 8 Objection Q protocols ------------ Did you personally evaluate Cameron's experimental Probably not 10 A 11 Q 12 A No 13 Q Did Gittinger 14 A I don't know Q Did anyone 16 A I don't know 17 Q Did you determine whether the procedures he planned JR to use would be likely to cause injury to the subjects I' 20 I didn't n o Q I 22 Do you remember doing so Did Gi t tin q er I don't kn o w Q Did anyone else 3 41 2 l 4 A I don't know Q Did you determine whether Cameron was going to tell patients and their families they were subjects in experimental procedures A Did I personally determine that no Q Did Git ting er A I Q Did anyone else A I don't know Q Did you determine whether Cameron was going to tell i don't know 10 11 the patients and their fa ilies that those experiments were new 12 and untested A I didn't know Q Did Gittinger A I don't know Q Did you instruct anyone to do that A I can't remember Q Do you rcmcrnbc r instrucl inq a ny one L o cln Urn L' A No Q Did you determine whethe r Came r on wa s qoi nq to 14 16 17 18 I 20 21 2· - tell the patients and their families that ot her a cce pte d 34 2 therapeutic procedures were available for the treatment of men tal illness l 4 s 'l R 9 10 11 12 A I didn't Q Did Mr Gittinger 1 I don't know whether he did or not Q Did you instruct anyone to do that l I Q Do you recall issuing such instructions A No Q Did you determine whether or not Cameron was c oinq can't remember whether I did to tell the patients and their families that the experimental procedures were unlikely to yield therapeutic benefits 13 l 14 Will you repeat that The reporter read the pending question J5 THE WITNESS J i No BY MR TURNER 17 Q Did Gittinger A I don't remember wh0thc r he cl i d o r not IR I don ' t 19 know whether he did or not 20 Q Do you recall issuing instructi o ns to anyone to do A I don't 21 that 22 343 Q Did you determine whether Cameron was going to tell 2 the patients and their families that the experimental proced- l ures would be painful and distressing 4 5 7 8 9 10 Il 12 A No Q Did Gittinger A Not to my knowledge Q Did you instruct anyone to do that A No Q Did you determine whether Cameron was going to tell the patients and their families that the experimental procedures includes the use of hazardous techniques thi lt could cause psychoiogical injury of the subjects 13 A No Q Did Gittinger A Not to my knowledge Q Did you issue such instructions to anyone A Not to my remembrance Q Did you determine whether Cameron was 9oin9 t o tell 14 J 'i 16 J7 18 J9 the patients and their families that the experimental procedures 20 were being funded to advance n o nrnedical purposes 21 22 A I wasn't aware of that Q They were being funded by the CIA were they not A 2 J 4 I don't read that they were supposed to yield an unmedical benefit Q Did you determine whether Cameron was goin g to tell the patients and their families that he was recei v ing mo n ey from 'i someone who is not interested in the medic a l aspects o f hi s j t r eatment J A all of this That is not true I tried to state as a preface to that our mode of operation was to encourage pcopJe who were already doing research for valid research purposes 10 to continue them where we thought they would shed light on some II questions where we were interested in and I don't -- I can't 12 respond to that formulation of that point MR STRICKLAND That is exactly the reason that we would lodge the objection to the entire series of forgoing 5 questions They are often characterizccl as whether Dr Carner on i i was going to advise patients and their families and then there 17 is a fact given there has been no establishment of any of those 18 facts and that is why Dr Gottlieb is hDvinq pr-oblcms 19 I3Y MR TURNER 20 - _ -l i Q Whether Cameron was going to tell the f a-rerrt s and 21 t-_heir families that they were suJyjnct in expcr imcnb n cr i vi nr1 22 money from the CIJ front 3 4 '3 MR STRICKLAND 2 THE WITNESS Objection One of these things I read said that l he didn't know 4 patients he was not w i tting 'i BY MR 6 7 R So did you know he did not as a matter of fact do A I don't know Q The answer is you don't know A The question doesn't make sense to me that 10 12 13 14 I5 16 l7 JR J9 20 21 TURNER Q 11 Said he was unwitting So how could we tell The question -- If Cameron d i dn't know he was getting money from CIA how in the world could h have told his patient that 'T'ake 6 m J Q Precisely Did you take any steps at all to ensure that the 2 l experimental subjects of the Cameron Research at McGill 4 University were told a full story about those experiments 5 A Aside fromthe fact they were funded by CIA we l e f t that entirely up to Cameron 7 8 10 11 12 Q Did you personally take any steps to ensure t ha t experimental sub j ects at McGill University we re t old t he f u ll story of those experiments A The best answer T can qive yot1 is thc 1 I we dcpcnrlc rJ upon Cameron to take al of these steps Q In other words Dr Cameron had complete discretion ' 1 1 as to what he would tell the patients in the experiments which 14 were funded by the CIA is that correct 15 I i 17 18 19 20 A I am trying to process t money and t This was a grant of principal investigator retion about how it was used Witness and counsel confer MR STRICKLAND That may not have been resp o nsiv e to your q u est i on 21 Was your las t ques ti on -- 22 MR TURNER I wi ll r es tate t h at 347 m2 BY MR 2 Q 'l' URNER It is correct is it not that Cameron had complete J discretion as to what he would tell the patients i n the 4 experiments that were funded by the CIA Witness and counsel confer 5 'l'haL i s corr e c t 7 R 10 11 Q Were the patients in fact at McGill told they wero the subject of experimental procedures Dr Gottlieb A I don't know Q Were they in fact told those experimental procedures were new and untested 12 I ' I don't know 13 Q Were they in fact told that other accepted 14 therapeutic procedures were available for the treatment of IS mental illness 16 I7 18 19 20 21 22 A Q I don't know if they were told that Were they in fact told that experimental procedures were unlikely to yield therapeutic benefits A I don't know what they ware told Q Were they in fact told tha L cxperinwn Li l J proccd u r·cs could be painful and distressing A I don't know l L b m3 MR STRICKLAND I think Dr Gottlieb testified he 2 had no contact he doesn't know what he was told at all l the question to no matter what you ask will be that he doesn't 4 know BY MR TURNER 5 i I Q You were the man who approved the funding of these DctJ vities weren't you The activities took place after I left the outfit R ' and I just don't know 10 Q Who replaced you 11 A I don't remember that J2 There was a period of two or three years MR STRICKLAND IJ It might have been Bortner 14 Witness and counsel confer I5 BY MR TURNER Q 17 J8 So Why was Canada chosen for the type of research funded by the Society grant to Or Cameron A I don't know the answer to that My i'lssumpt ion is that McGill was chosen because that was where Dr Cameron had 20 his research activities 21 it was chosen 22 Q l don' L know n ny o I he · n '1 - 011 why Were those brainwashing ex1foriments conductecJ in 349 Canada because the Agency knew that conducting them in the 2 United States was too dangerous as it would lead to tremendous l pub lie outcry if discovered MR STRICKLAND 'i 6 THE WITNESS Objection to form I don't remember that conversation ever comin0 up in any form 7 BY MR TURNER Q What did you at CIA tell the Canadian Government about it 10 A I didn't tell them anything 11 Q You were using their citizens as guinea pigs 12 didn't feel an obligation MR STRICKLAND 14 15 16 J7 18 19 20 21 You Objection as to form And you arc badgering the witness THE WITNESS I would like to state for the record that you are asking me a series of questions the answers to which I couldn't possibly know As I said I left the scene shortly after this was s igned and you are asking me questions I don't know the answers to MR TURNER You ke ep askin g those questions Let 's ta ke a break Brief recess BY MR 'J'UI NE R l Dr Gottlieb patients who are confined 'to a 'mental _ j _5 N - 1_ l M institution sometimes exercise judgment that isn't fair as a 4 consequence of their mental illness isn't that correct 2 Q 5 A I don't know of any Ii Q Patients in a mental hospitnl nro lass likrly Ln 7 c1ues tion what t he doctor does than paticn ts who are in ful 1 8 control of their faculties A 10 11 J2 isn't that correct Anything I would say on questions like that would be sheer speculation I don't know that for a fact Q You are the man who approved the funding of experi- ments in a mental hospital What do you know about the capabilities of paLicnts l' l 14 in mental hospitals who exercise judgment as to the care or l 'i lack of it that they will accept J A 17 a question J8 9 20 21 22 Q I don't feel I am competent to answer that kind of Do you know anything of the capacities that people who have been confined to a mental hospital -A I never worked in a mental hospital I hnv e na v e treated mental patients Q What supervision ove r Dr Cam e ron d i d Jo hn Ci l t i nqc1- mo exercise 2 l A Didn't we deal with that question before to me you asked me that once I don't know 4 Witness and counsel confer s BY MR TURNER 6 7 8 1 10 Q Tt seems Did Gittinger ask Cameron what measures would be taken to safeguard the well being of experimental subjects A I don't know Q Did you give him any instructions to do so A For the period that this work was carried out 11 I wasn't there so I couldn't possibly have done that 12 When you approved the application 13 A I have no remembrance of anything like that 14 Q You didn't feel you had any obligation to do so A I 15 I Ci 17 l8 19 20 21 22 don't remember whether I felt I had an obliqation to do so Q Did Mr Gittinger ask Cameron for reports on the conditions of subjects while they were under0oinq experim0ntal procedures A I wasn't present when they we re undcrgoinc1 Lh c procedures Q Did you instruct Mr Gittinger to request suc h rn7 reports A I don't remember whether I did or not Q Do you recall doing it 4 A I don't recall s Q Have you bGen informed whether Mr C i L Linqc r· 2 i Dr 7 being of experimental sub1ects Cameron what measures he would c1 skccl tnkc to safc9uanl the well R A Would you put that i n a time frame I Q Ever 10 A As I 11 Q That is why I rephrased the question in this form 12 A Pardon 13 Q That is the -- 14 A I don't remember that 15 Q Did Mr Gittinger ask Dr Cameron for reports on the said I wasn't there for a period of time 16 condition of experimental subject after they had completed that 17 four-part procedure that was included in his application 18 1 T wDs not i n Wnshi nqton ·r hnd nnt-lli nq l n rlo wi l h the project at that point 20 Q 21 22 Do you kno w wh c thcr he cl id Lhc1 l I h ave no idea Q Have you s i n ce learn ed whether he did that J 53 m8 A I have no information on that subject 2 Q Did you give him any instructions 3 A Are you saying beforehand 4 Q Before hand or 5 A It couldn't be afterhand because I wasn't there Q Did you give him any instructions to do that 7 A Not that I can remember R Q Do you recall giving him any instructions to do that A Not that I can remember Q Did Mr Gittinger ask Cameron for subsequent followup 1 10 11 reports on the condition of experimental subjects 12 J' l A 15 J7 20 21 22 Q Did you instruct him to do that A To the extent that I was there and siqned off on the project I couldn't remember whether I instructed him to do that J8 19 I had nothing to do with the pro- ject I don't know I ·1 16 I was not there Q Do you recall issuing instructions for him to do A I have no recollection Q Did you direct Mr Gittinger to take any steps at that all to assure the safety and well being of experimental subj ec l m9 at McGill 2 A I don't have any remembrance of that 3 Q You said you could not recall who the officer was 4 who took over your responsibilities with respect to MKULTRl 5 when you left TSD 6 l ' l'hat is correct 7 Q You also s a id i t cou l d h a ve been Bortn e r or 8 Lashbrook I 10 11 13 14 15 j j 17 18 19 20 21 22 A It could have been other people Q Diel you brief your successor in MKULTRA A 12 think r that Q Somebody took over MKULTRA did they not A I don't even remember that Q What discussions concerning MI ULTRA did you have they did prior to your departure from TSD in 1957 A context I don't remember discussions about MKULTRA in that I might add if it were Lashbrook or Bortner that took that job over it wouldn't have been necessary to do any briefing in the areas you are talking about Q They knew everything you kn ew A Just about sure ' i I think I will answer that guest 1o r1 i I I 35 5 mlO yes they knew everything I knew about it 2 l What did you tell your successor chief of the Q Chemical Division about the Cameron Project don't remember what I told him 4 A I 5 Q What did you tell your successor at Chemical Division --------------- 6 7 about supervising MJ ULTRl Whal did you tell him about supervising the Q 9 10 JI behavioral activities branch The same answer A 14 I don't have any remembrance of a conversation like that What did you tell him about supervising John Q 13 ___ --- ----- - I don' t hnvc any romomb n1ncc of thn convc n a Lion 1 Gittinger A I might say at this point that I don't remember any- IS thing about briefing any successor of mine about this whole 16 area that you are talking about 17 tion that ever took place Q 19 20 21 I don't remember a conversa- Did you tell anyone in TSO anything about supervising the Cameron Project prior o your departure in 1957 A I have no remembrance of that Q You returned to Washington in 1960 Dr Gottlieb 22 A 8 ml 1 Q In April of 1960 Colonel Monroe wrote as Executive· 2 Director of the Iuman Ecology Fund that he was helpin Cameron l arrange Air Force funding for his research 4 'i 7 R What do you know of that A Nothing Q Wha L do you know of any 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 tHJ o Lhcr U1c1n l lw Society grant of Cameron by any agency governmental private A I have no information on that Q Did you ever discuss the Society grant to Dr Cameron 10 fund i with anyone at the CIA or at the Society A Not to my remembrance Witness and counsel confer MR LICHTMAN I would like the record to note that counsel just initiated a colloquy and arguably assisted the witness in what to answer at this point I think that i s quite inappropriate MR STRICKLAND I was simply su9 resting to Dr Gottlieb that if the question was Did you talk l o i nyonc at the CIA at any time about Dr Cameron's project he might want to make absolutely certain his answer was correct MR LICHTMAN I think one can ask his own questions and elicit his own answers and not coach the witness J J ml 2 MR STRICKLAND 2 it outloud THE WITNESS J 4 At any rate it doesn't change my answer MR STRICKLAND 5 cnrLt d n 7 c1uesU on to be g BY MR 0 Q probnbly as yrn1 A Did you ever discuss Dr Cameron with anyone at I have no remembrance of that was going on at the time 1 1 remembrance of it JS Q or in the contention of what I might well have but I have no That is exactly what I mean Did you ever discuss the subject matter of Cameron's work with anyone at the CIA or at the Society 17 A Not to my remembrance 18 Q Did you ever got to Montreal A I have been to Montreal Q v-l hen A To the bes t of my knowledge in abo u t 20 21 I he 'l'URNER What I am trying to say 12 I i nl nnd0 l CIA or at the Society lJ J i I was only attempting to make the 1nswcr wr1s r ompleLe i 10 I was hardly coaching when I said sure might have been '72 I took a bicycle 197 1 it t ri p t o Mo n tr e al a n d ml 1 to Quebec and back 2 Q That is the only time you have been to Montreal 3 A To the best of my remembrance that is true 4 T certainly never went there in any connections with the 'i project that you are talking about Q 8 9 10 11 12 aside Outside of Montreal have you ever been to Canadu from the 1971 trip A Yes in about 1972 or '73 I took a Canadian Pacific train on a two-week trip across Canada from Quebec Q That is the only occasion besides the Montreal bicycle trip A I might ha e crossed into Canada at Windsdr We 13 h d some family at the Univeisity of Michigan and I visited 14 there many times and I remember crossing the border once or 15 twice but aside from that 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q Never have you traveled to Canada in addition with your employment with the CIA A Not to my remembrance r want to just check my memory on that Q Take your time A I think my answer is no Q Did you ever talk by telephone to anyone in Montreal l ' ' concerning the Cameron research 2 A Not to my remembrance J Q Did you ever talk to anyone in Montreal concerning 4 s 7 8 10 II 12 MKULTRA l Not to my remembrance Q Did you ever correspond wJLh nnyonc in MonLre 11 concerning either MKULTRA or did Cameron's research A Not that I remember Q Did you ever have any conversation in person by telephone or any correspondence with Cameron A I didn't have any contact at all with him Q During the 1950s did you attend a meeting of 13 provisional organizations such as the American Psychiatric 14 Association 15 16 17 J8 I' 20 A I did not Q Any provisional organizations A Sure I regularly attend meetings of the American Chemical Society Q Any others l Not that I can remember T may hav e ottancicci some 21 other provisional meetings in that period but I couldn't 22 remember that HiO Q Did you ever have any conversation in person by 2 telephone or conduct any correspondence with anyone associated J with McGill University 4 5 A Not to my remembrance Q What do you know about any conversations or corres- h pondence by any person connected to McGill University and anyon 7 connected with the Society of the CIA 8 10 A Other than what I read to you this afternoon I don't have any remembrance of any others Q Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron left McGill JI University when more and more of his colleagues began to 12 question the ethics and therapeutic validity of the experimenta 11 procedures he was conducting J4 MR STRICKLAND 15 THE WITNESS 16 BY MR TURNER 7 IR 19 20 Q Objection to the form Nobody told me that to my remembrance Did anyone tell you that Dr Cameron's succcsscir as director of the l llcn Memorial Tnstil·t1fc• on'lr · ul 1 rol low- q study of the depatterning patients who had been subjected to those massive electroshock treatments that I described earlier 21 MR STRICKLAND 22 THE WITNESS Objection as to the form Nobody told me that that I remember 161 BY MR TURNER 2 Did anyone tell you that that study found that Q J - --h i s s u b j e c t s r e p o r t e d m e m o r y -r ooss s e s n- f - 'f Qrths years s MR STRICKLAND 'l'llE WITNESS 7 8 IJ 12 11 14 15 16 17 18 I' want to make BY MR TURNER Q At that time when you saw the ABC d cumentary did you feel any responsibility to help the subjects of the CIA funded experime s a McGill outraged at the format of the who le proqrarn l I didn't have room for those kinds of feelings That is my remembrance of this Q Do you feel any responsibility now A I feel I have been badgered so much in the last ten minutes that is what I am feeling now by questions that you time and again Q 22 I that did come out in that ABC documentary 20 21 Nobody told me that a qualifier some of those statements or question or two before 0 10 Objection T told I didn't have access to have answers to I will try to put it again Consider Canadian citizens Dr Gottlieb sought therapy and who i nstead were used as guinea pigs in the experiments I described who were give m ssive dnd sl eep Lr ca mcn t s don 't s·r•Rrc r 1 J ND h ou th 1k r R ycl11 c dt· vi leclroshoc k treat m nt LSD j II J i h Objecu on to fo s Ii y t r c rc d 11 nd o h 1· ion 1r _ asking for a legal conclusion II T w-· 11 I Wi tncS$' and counsc' 1 clj ·he wi · ncsR not to n nsw r rcct Yon dit· 'C'f· rl hini R MIL 'l IIHNT- H 'l MR S'l'IHCKL ND Ill M rL TlJHNER 11 BY MR 12 I1 Q ·rm r Pr r wi O l llHWr l ll llt 1 1 Yes r 0 s t n l J t· c q 1 n 'l'l U1 E R Consider the Canadians who sou h t her a py who i nsi ted th y wer e use-cl as q11inf'i' pi h in 'l x c 'its i 11 l'i tro shock tro atmcnt r sD physhic- clrivin tt and sl 0cl I do you fee l any responsibi1 i ty tnw rd or I' I I 21 11 _ • t m r t s Gottlieb MR 0 ndi •i th0E P 1· swer bf 'C S R iCIO ' JD find the- qucsticn c1i f UF · i MR T Rl rnrl f'f 1 is Do you ecJ s nhj0c-l int I Roi '111 r t· ' fn1m not i mnn _ 1 l·n Iv nn 11 nc _ bn 1y n sponsi b · 1 · 1 f'I ' r C' t hr ' hI n I - THE WITNESS 2 I find it very difficult to answer that question MR l S'PRICJU AND I know you c1 idn' t say any thinq My problem as I 4 about legal or ethical responsibility 5 stated it was so open-ended it is impossible to answer what 6 kind of responsibility to you mean 'l'IIE Wl'J'NESS 7 R answer that question 9 on it JO 11 I said I find i t very difficult to J nd I would rather not comment further BY MR TURNER Q From what l h ve sho n you out of the documents 12 today and what I have just stated would you authorize that 1 1 kind of an experimental program were you in a position to do 111 15 16 so t oday A That states a hypothetical case that I don't want to I now state 17 MR STRICKLAND Objection the question calls for 18 sheer speculation 19 tion that happened some years ago 20 21 22 BY MR Q Th e case is prcdicn t ed on 11 fnc l tinl si t 11 n - 'l'URNEH There were grantees o f the Soci e ty who kne w they were receiving CIA funding weren't there Doct o r l i ve I bu t i h Du y o u k no 1 • 1ho · h • a r I CC mlr1n t think Q 'IW r thn s c OW SC What Socic l y qrants were made I re e rch tn so · TtHCl l ND l uco I d MH 11 I Q IS A • 'l'TJ Nr• R What Society g rants wero mudc o n hr' nl vc s 1 r s cl ch ' r s wllr h n l • l l ly mrc rC o Dr didn I t· 11ndc rsl 1nd q1• in11 Wi I ' o whom t h P Soc10ty -- a ny At McG i ll · 1•pl' t1 y qq 1 w· 11 rephrase i were employe d by M• ·Gi 1 J g rant made Co1 ild t HJl 'T'I JHNEH m DY am try to remember somr- bu Twil l MIL J 1 h l • th ln o Camero n a t McGill Univc sity ' I i · m n io u probab ly hat w 1 c n 80 nPwsl0· t 'r o Docs an - 1-11 1J i11q ·a my h0 l ls 111 20 rt sl ri k i t0 th l w P'll'l H wc r r a t McGi l 1 u i l ' hr t l h11 1 h r e search qrc 1nt f P cl l 1 ' I fl f r I I 1 r 11 I' •I - 36 5 What was the purpose of establishing that newsletter Q 2 Doctor 4 I don't remember A J Do you happen to have a MKULTRA document on it and I can look at when it happened and I might be able to help you more Q I R with me Did l he C J have any connect ions or U cs with Llw World Psychiatric Association 10 Nol Not any ties that I remember being involved in or A that I had any knowledge of 11 Did anyone tell you that many of the organizers of Q 12 the World Psychiatric Association were CIA funded researchers 13 like or Cameron while others were brainwashing experts like 14 Dr Willaim Sergeant of Great Britain 15 MR STRICKLAND 16 THE WITNESS l7 BY MR TURNER 18 19 Objection as to form I was not aware of that Did the CIA send representatives to the meetings Q of the World Psychiatric Association A 20 They mi g h t h ave but I don't rcmc m bcr any th i nq 21 that 22 activity iJ bou l I don't remember any TSD people being involved in t hn t 366 Q What do you know of Dr Do n ald O Hebb o f McGill 2 University l A I recognize the name only as -- it comes to my mind neuropst6hiatric researcher but I wouldn't be able to 4 as a 5 tell you before you told me that he was at McGill Q 1 R 9 10 What do you know of the sensory dcprivaLion expcri- nwnLation Dr l lobb conducted A l am very hazy about that now that you men Li on i L I connect that -- I don't remember anything about it Q Did anyone tel you or did otherwise become aware 11 of the fact that Dr Hebb did extensive consulting for 12 Canadian intelligence during the 13 MR STRICKLAND 14 THE WITNESS 15 BY MR TURN ER 16 17 Q Objection to form I was never aware of that Did you know that Dr Hebb was granted a CIA security MR STRICKLJ ND 9 THE WITNESS Objection t o fo1 m I didn't know that I was not aware n f t hat 21 22 50 1 s clearance in 1964 18 20 1 BY MR TURNE R Q Do you know why Dr lebb was qranted such a cl e a1 a ncc · 1 167 MR STRICKLAND 2 THE WITNESS 3 BY MR TURNER 4 Q I do not know Why was there so much activity at McGill MR STRICKLAND ' 'l'llg Wl'l'NESS MR TURNER Il j 2 11 quur LL011 CIA linked activity at McGill I wasn't We talked about this MKULTRA project and you told me about Dr Hebb You are asking me why that was there I don't have any more to impart to you than T have BY MR TURNER Q Wasn't it because Canadian and British intel li0cnce agencies were also funding activities at McGill l7 MR STRICKLAND 18 THE WITNESS Objection What you are telling me now is news to me 20 BY MR TURNER 21 Q 22 JOl l'ill Connected with CIA aware that there was so much 15 19 'J'haL is a prcLLy THE WITNESS 14 16 Could you explain that l cLiv U y or whaL kind' 8 10 Objection to form Did you ever have any conversation by phone or in person or any correspondence with any Canadian government official 2 A Not to my remembrance 3 Q Let me finish the question concerning Society funded research or similar 4 'i l No L my rcmcmbra nee' 7 Q Concernin J R A The same answer not to my remembrance ' Q Concerning MKULTRA project as distinct from the 10 11 Lhc Cameron subpn j C C L Society A I never remember having any correspondence contact J2 by person or in person or phone with any part of the Canadian IJ Government about anything 14 Q Did you have any conversation in person or by phone 15 or correspondence with any British Government officinl con- 16 cerning Society funded research for similar activity 17 A Not to my remembrance 18 Q Concerning any other MKULTRA project 19 A Not to my remembrance 20 Q Were the Royal Canadian Mountod Polico inf'nnnccl or 21 Ct activity 22 the Society grant to Dr Cameron A I don't know l Q Did you inform them 2 A I didn't inform them no J Q Was Canadian intelligence informed of the Society 4 'i C grant to Dr Cameron Witness and counsel confer MR S'l'IHCl l AND Dt· Goll licb has rosponclcd Lo yrn1t· previous questions which generally inquired in contacts between 8 9 the United States and foreign governments This question we interpret it as inquiring into 10 an intelligence liaison relationship between CIA and Canadian 11 intelligence as such the existence or non-existence of that 12 could not be acknowledged u J4 l5 On that basis we lodge an objection and direct the witness not to answer I believe you can probably get the same information 16 just by asking the general question was there any contact 17 with the Canadian Government 18 19 20 21 22 THE WITNESS Th e c1 nswo r is n o n e o f nny k i nd t h 1 I· I am aware of MR STRICl'ZLAND With any b r anch o f Lhc CiJnc 1 cl i t1 11 Government TI-IE WITNESS About these matte r s that 1 am awa r e I 7 BY MR TURNER 2 3 Q Was the intelligence agency of any country informed other than the United States I will assume that Mr Strick land's obj a ct i o n wo u 1 c1 4 A 'i r over that MR TURNER You arc objecli ny 7 Tl E WITNESS R MR TURNER 9 MR STRICKLAND 10 11 14 l 5 encl m r m 16 17 R 19 20 21 22 I would like for him to do so Yes we would object on the same basis 12 He is directing me not to unswc r BY Q MR TURNER Was anyone connected in any fashion with the Canadian Government informed of the grant to Dr Cameron A The answer is not to my knowledge 171 is Was our State Department informed of the grant to Q ake 7 2 J 4 Dr Cameron A I have no information of that Q Did you inform them l No Q Did you inform them of any MKULTRA Project' A Not that I remember Q The Canadian Government in correspondence with our I just don't know i 7 9 plaintiffs has stated that they first learned of the CIA's 10 sponsored experiments at McGill when the disclosure occasioned 11 by John Marks' FOIA release occurred The Canadian Government 12 also stated that U S authorities expressed deep regret that 1 1 funding from official U S sources had taken place from 1958 14 to 1960 without informing the Canadian Government l 'i Do you regret the CIA spunsored the came on cxperil i ments at McGill 17 MR STRICKLAND We object to form I don't think JR you have an obligation to answer the question Do you reqrct or j' do you think you were morally wrong or a ny similar question 20 MR TURNER You direct him not to answer 21 MR 22 STRICKLAND Yes BY MR TURNER is-2 Q 2 J How many subprojects were there in MKULTRA Dr Go ttlieb A I don't remember that That is a very confusing 4 'i 7 R f 10 IJ 12 13 14 J5 l i 17 g11estion because MKULTRA Projects were numbered sequentially In other words the same project as it got renewed for several years would get a new number The only thing I can answer that might be helpful there were numbers up to 160 or so that I remember maybe even higher but I have no remembrance that even begins to be precise about what number of project that represents Q What portion of the p rojects included under MK ULTRJ involve CIA funding of outside research o n LSD T l nythin q I said n ow a b o ut· t h a t would be spcc 11 L d i v c I don't know Q How many projects involve CIA funding of outside research on LSD •-- --- h ave a figure on it 18 A I just 19 Q Did 20 conduct LSD 21 A Yes Q Was that research funded by MKUI RA 22 Boston Psychopathic Hospital I is- 373 2 think so A I Q Doctor what time period was Dr Hyde's research j funded by CIJ I j 5 To the best of my recollection that was in tho late 50's middle of J ate 50's I would guess 55 I could be wrong 1 Q Who supervised that project R A I can't remember Q Please describe the research Dr 10 for the Agency J 11 j 2 1Jyde conduc l ed I can only describe the general description of it tho most general They were associated with IIarvard University I1 and they did a series over several years of experiments on 14 voluntary Harvard University students on some volunteer staff j 5 members of Boston Psychopathic Hospital and they did some work on patients at the hospital towards the end of investigating the 17 psycotherapeutic possibilities of LSD Q Dr Hyde knew he was working with the CIA didn't 20 A YGs he dicl 21 Q Did Harold Abramson at Mount S i nai llosp Ltc1l and 18 19 22 he Columbia Universi ty conduct 1 rm resedrch for the C l ' 3 7 1 Witness and counsel confer ·-4 ·J _ THE WITNESS What was the question l The reporter read the pending question 4 Witness and counsel confer 5 The reporter read the pending question 6 7 8 The problem that we are having MR S'1 RICKL ND 1 wi th the question is that some projects and researchers have not been acknowledged and are being protected in litigation at the present time 10 11 s train ts are and fingertips 12 Do you have anything which can help us THE WITNESS 14 As to Abramson Or llyde for that matter MR STRICKLAND 15 MR 16 J8 certainly don't have the informal i on in my MR TURNER l l 17 I Or Gottlieb is uncertain what the con- TURNER You are aware of the Synuns Case Yes MR STRICKLAND There are over 100 researchers and projects and I am uncertain as to the details of exposure I believe Dr Gottlieb would be hesitate to make an unauthorized 19 disclousre However if you can help us we may be able to qet 20 us over a hurdle 21 MR TURNER 22 I am surpr i s e d tha t Ab r ams o n h n d occasion to raise such a problem I d o n't even kn ow if an 37 5 J f0 _ f I LI - 1 objection has been alleged if' 2 l MR STRICKLAND r1rn 11nccrtain and 4 - 7 THE WITNESS JO can help me we can qc I nrr l' 110 lrnrdlc The role of Dr Abramson in the Olson matter has certainly been acknowledged but you are talking about another area now and I am not sure what has been done about that 8 ' if ynu Abramson -- I am sayinq that T MR STRICKLAND The easiest way would be you obviously reviewed a lot of the FOIA documents rel eased for Marks was it released in there 1l MR TURNER No I can't answer that I don't know 12 at this time 13 MR STRICKLAND That is my problem and I apolo- 14 gize 15 16 MR TURNER Harold Abramson I am going to ask the quest io n d id o f Mount Sinai Ho spital a nd Columbia University I7 conduct LSD research for CIA 18 MR STR I CKLAND I wouJ d t ent atively o b je c t I MR TURNER 20 21 22 That quest i on h a s been a nswer e d in t h e discussion of Dr Olson in that Dr Gottlieb stat ed t hat Ol son was sent to Abramson bec rnse Abramson had conduc ted LS D research THE WITNESS I said that Abramson was one o f t h e most knowledgeable people we knew in the field of LSD and human 6 2 service I said nothing about what the CIT clicl or di dn ' t spon- sor in the way of research for him 4 MR STRICKLAND 5 i 7 IW 10 11 12 13 and Columbia University conduct LSD research for the ClA MR STRICKLAND obj e ction albeit tentative on the basis of security con- this question has been officially released by the Executive Branch I will be glad to check this out for you and we can go from there MR TURNER 15 You direct him not to answer MR STRICKLAND 16 18 The government would lod e an I am uncertain whether information responsive to siderations J4 17 MR TURNER Did Harold Abramson of the Mount Sinai Hospital Q 8 9 That was my understanding Yes BY MR TURNER Q Did the CIA use the Josiah Macy Foundation as a funding conduit during the 1950's to support LSD and o ther 19 research 20 A I will raise the same question 21 hat is public information 22 Witness and counsel c o nfer J don 't know whcthc · · 37 7 MR B·-' 2 will raise the same t cnl ntivc If you will check further and let us MR LICHTMAN know whether you will persist in this objection s r We objection 3 4 S'I'RICKLAND MR STRICKLAND You had indicated that the rJc pns i t ion w i 11 probably be continued for a third day 7 understand R frivolous objection · it is simply I wouldn't want 0 f 11 4 J5 16 17 it is not a matter of persisting or interposing nr Gottlieb to take a deposition in behalf of the government and inappropriately reveal something which the government is trying to protect in another case 12 13 You MR LICHTMAN Let us know at the outset of the third day MR STRICKLAND MR TURNER I will Can you do it by May 27 when the rest of this stuff comes over MR STRICKLAND I d o n't think th a t woul d b e a 18 rnaj or problem 19 Abramson at Co lumbi a and Mo un t Si n a i 20 MR TURNER 21 22 I will n o t a t -- t his p oi nt g o t h roug h all of the questions which r ela t e to Dr Ab ra ms on or t h e Jo r iah Macy Foundati o n but I will reserv e the r i g ht to q ue stion o n 378 thpse matters - Fl MR STRICKLAND 'I'ha t is very agreeable 2 13Y MR TURNER l Q 4 5 Medical School Emory University and the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary conduct LSD research for the CTA R ' 10 Il 12 Yes Q Was that research funded by MKULTRA 1 Yes Q Was that research later funded by MKSEARCH A I really don't remember that Q Those cryptonyms con- During what period of time did Dr Pheiffer receive money from the CIA A lS 1 1 A fuse me l l 14 Did Carl Pfeiffer of the University of Illinois period of I can only estimate approximate it somewhere in the '53 and '54 and perhaps 1 62 17 Q Who supervised that project 18 A I don't remember I' Q What were your responsi bi lities with relatio n to 20 Dr Pfeiffer's project A 21 2 co l I was the n ranch an cl th r1 t Chief of the Chemical Division o r Chcmi - was the name o C l he o r q an i z a L i on Ll w L cl s such had overall responsibility for MKULTRA - - -- -- -·--·--·· ·-•- --·-·· · 179 9 Q 2 5 A He had a group of voluntary prisoners at the L lanta Penil enti ary re Jc1rding the study of LSD and its affects 011 8 con- As I remember he did several researches over the period of years 7 B ducted for the CIA J 4 Please describe the research Dr humans II e d i cl s o m e _w o r k c '--' 's_ o'-o k 1 · n g 1 ·n _ t o and material called eretran the proper tie He was involved also together with a chemist named -- I forqet his ' name -- into looking at the physiological JO Jl chemical compounds on animals He did several other things I don't remember them but those are typical 12 Q 13 activity of several You stated that one of those projects involved research with volunteer prisoners What is the basis for 1 1 your statement that those prisoners were volunteers Dr Gottl5 lieb 16 A 17 What is the basis for my statement they were volun- teers based on the protocol that I remember being presented to 18 the project and some of the reports afterwards IC Q You examined the protocol in Dr Pfeiffer's project A I either examined it myself or someone else did and 20 2 told me about it 22 Q Pfeiffer knew he was working f o r the CIA d idn' t he 38 0 · s-10 2 A Yes he did Q Did Harris Isbell of the National Institute of J Mental Health in the Addicts Research Center in Lexington Ken- 4 tucky conduct LSD research Eor the CJA MR STRICKLAND May we interpose the same tentative objection and take the matter under advisement when we 7 JO 11 r econvene 'l'URNER MR S'rRICKLAND help me I would appreciate it MR 14 If you would please give me a call Monday if you have anything that comes to mind that would 12 u On the same basis as the other one MR TURNER I can respond now Dr Isbell testifie in 1975 about the research that was conducted with LSD a t Le xi n9 ton If 1 can have a moment He does have a CIA acknowledce- l'i ment 16 17 MR STRICKLAND I thin k tha t st at emen t of Dr Isbell would indicate that matter has been acknowledged Dr JR ot tl i ch would be f r ee t o testify a bo ut thc1t 19 BY MR TURN ER 20 The q ues tion pe n d ing 21 22 the Nati ona I wi l l Tnstitutc nf Mcnt·nl resta t e Did 11arris llr illl ·h 11H I 7 l lir·I Center in Lexington Kentucky conduct LSD research 381 fo r the CIA is- Ll A Yes Q Was that research funded by MKULTRA A I am not sure 2 3 4 5 ----- That was one government agency to another and it may have had some other funding mechanism it might have been a transfer of funds to NIM IL remember whether i t had a MK number I don't rt would have been a rlif- 8 ferent administrative arrangement 9 of NIMI-1 could conceivably have its own reasons for doing this 10 One being that the Bureau LSD research It was funded through the Chemical Division at TSO lJ Q 12 was it not 13 A I think so 14 Q During what period of time 15 A I can't remember that The other testimony might l i help but I don't remember it being in -- but I remember it being 17 in the late middle late 'S0's 18 Q Who supervised that project 19 A I think Dr Bortner was the superv isor of it 20 Q Is he dead 21 A Yes 22 Q What we re your rcspon s i bi Lilics wi Lh project n Jdnl I Lil11L 382 A -12 2 I had overall responsibility for this area of research 3 4 As Chief of the Chemical Branch or Chemical Division Q Please describe the research Or Tsbc J conducted Eo r t he CI A 5 A He did several things for us He on volunteer 6 subjects at the Narcotics Division Hospital at Lexington 7 he performed some of the early and basic work on the relation- H ship between dose and response of LSD in particular was inter- ested and got useful data on effects called adaptation when a 10 11 person ingested LSD repeatedly prepeatedly two or three times the effects diminished So those were two of the principal 12 areas 13 14 He also did some work on inhibitors of LSD activity other drugs that would terminate the actions of LSD s 16 17 Q You stated that those experiments were performed on volunteer subjects What is the basis for your statement that the subjects were volunteers Dr Gottlieb 18 l 19 talked with I mys self visited the hospitcil or several l imcs Isbell witnesses some of these experiments 20 21 22 50's Q When were those visits A As I say the best I can locate them is the middle 3 83 i s-13 1 2 l 4 5 Q How did Dr Isbell obtain subjects for the experi- ments he was conducting A As far as I can remember he put out a c a ll o r ' vol- unteers and there were certain rewards to volunteering r eally don't remember what those rewards were or the inducement Lo become a volunteer J R I but I remember larly interested in the fact that these or Isbell being p a rticu- were so-c a lled drug-wise subjects subjects that were used to getting ingesting drugs of ' various types and therefore being rather sophisticated about 10 reporting their effects II Q What was the population of the Addicts Research 12 Center in Lexington composed of 13 A I t h i n k t hey were pe o ple with a history of narc utics 14 addiction and I don 1 t remember whether they voluntarily com15 mitted themselves or were legally committed were i n the r e f or 16 rehabilitation purposes 17 Q Did anyone ever tell you th At Dr Isbell offered 18 those people who were in there for addiction rehabilita t ion 19 narcotics in exchange for participating 20 A Yes I think I was aw a re of tha t a t th e time Q You als o stated that 21 on adaptation to LSD or Isbell conducted r e search Did you ever h e re that Dr I sbell ke pt seven men on LSD for 77 consecutive days is-14 2 A I don't remember that particular fact l Q Is that consistent with the research he was con- 4 ducting on the adaptation effects of LSD say it would be consistent wJth that research qoc 1 All I can Ynu hri nq 7 tn mind R in the quantum effects of LSD repeated ingestion C Lhose prolon9ed repeated administrations were in line of runniny 10 this adaptation out to its ultimate end or whether he was inter- II ested in those experiments in the chronic effects of LSD I 12 am not sure 13 Q 14 another goal he had I think ha had some i ntcrcsL And whether How often did you visit tl1e Addicts Research Ccn tcr in Lexington 15 A I don't have a precise figure on that 16 Q The 17 A At least three or four times 18 Q or Isbell knew he was working for the CIA didn't A Yes 19 20 21 22 ______ I really can't answer that accurately A 'i - _ ___ best of your recollection he MR TURNER Why don't we take a five minute stretch' A brief recess was taken 385 MR TURNER 2 l 4 5 BY Q MR Back on the record TORNER Did Louis · Jocelyn West of the University of Oklahoma conduct LSD research for the CIA A I d on' t I would have to ask that same ques t ion A have a good memory 7 knew about it shouldn't you look into it 8 9 10 MR TURNER If he did and if I You are entering an objection We have agreed to determine whether you will permit Dr Gottlieb t n testify on quo stionr as to Dr Wc st II 12 The name is familiar MR S'T'RICKLAND We would treat it the same wa y we would treat the questions about Abramson and Josiah Macy Foundation and now Dr West at the University of Oklahoma 4 15 Q conduct LSD research for the CIA A 17 18 19 Did Harold Hodge of the Uni ersity o f Rochester reco rd I think y o u have to treat it the same wa y MR STRICKLAND MR 'rURNER So t h e re would be n o mis ta ke o n th e I do have a dditi o na l questi o ns o n t h ose researc h ers 20 MR ST R ICK LAND 21 22 The same basis MR TURNER Un d er s t ood No wai ve r as to add i tio n a l qucr tinns 38n BY MR TURNER Q 2 l research for the CIA A 4 have no remembrance of that 1· h e same basis as Even if you tell him anything about it MR TURNER 0 The same tentative objecti o n the prev i nu s one ' l'lm WITNESfi ' R I MR STRICKLAND 5 Did Dr Burch of Baylor Universit y conduct LSD Dcknowlcclq c i l c o uldn't- I don't remember this one You will tell us whether Burch's affil- JO iation or nonaffiliation with the Agency is the subject o f ack- 11 nowledgement however 12 MR STRICKLAND Yes u Witness and counsel confer 14 BY MR 1S Q TURNE R At our last session you mentioned a Dr Cook as a 16 researcher who worked with MKULTRA 7 research for the CIA 18 19 A that 20 21 22 Yes Did Dr Cook conduct Althoug h I mention that I need to c h e c k o n He is in the same categ o ry as e ve rybo d y els e MR STRI CKL AND MR TU RNE R Is l ha l C -o -o - I J t wl1cJ t un i v c r - s ity I do n' t h av e an inst i tution 387 MR STRICKLAND 2 it in his deposition l BY MR 4 5 6 7 Do you remember where he mentioned Q TURNER At that last session you also mentioned a Dr Hirnwich I believe H-i-rn-w-i-c-h The same thing You have already testified he conducted research with Meretran for the CJ A I mentioned that before in addition with Pfe i ff' r I Meretran is an analeptic which is a stimulant one of those 10 II l2 13 things that keeps you awake Q What was tho CIA's interest in that A The same general interest we had in the materials and techniques which could create major changes in human behavio l 1 1 Q 15 16 and charges you up Will you explain how that fits into that concern with major changes in human behavior A Sometimes people are kept awake as a p ressu re 17 mechanism 18 Q In interroga tio n A Interrog ations or in a t tempt s t o in f lu en ce t h e m Q During wh at p er iod di d Dr Himw ic h conduct that I 20 21 research n L A I wo uld l ik e t o we it a n d h ear FJ d et ermi n a ti on as tn 388 whether the CIA is officially acknowledging that research 2 l Ii MR STRICKLAND I f you c o uld help the d o c tor by indicating what exactly he testified to instead o f t cbr ms of substantial 7 l LICHTMAN rnony 4 5 You already gave substantia 1 testi- MR MR T TCU'PMJ N Ile said three thinqs he Gc- d d he worked with us he worked in a mental institution he worked ' in Meretran 10 II 12 13 14 l5 16 17 18 Having said that I think you could answer the rest of the question MR TURNER This one is a slightly difCcr· cnt rms - ture There has been testimony MR STRICKLAND has b e en testimony saying there wasn't That is my problem You s y there I don't specifically recall it I am not I am sim p ly -- THE WITNESS MR TURNER I saw it here when I proofread it We will defer on this o ne but l do e mphasize th at this is under consic1crab1y dif fcr cnt circumstan ces I J and I will come back to this topic regardless of the Age ncy's 20 statement as to its current wilJ inqncss t o ackn ow leclqc the 21 22 connection with Dr Hirnwich MR STRICKLAND I u nders ta nd I understand your 389 position that you feel there is a factual difference here 2 I would only note---and you do have a right to come back --I would ··- - --- --· ---- --only note that even if Dr Gottlieb inadvertently and by acci l 4 5 dent revealed information which is still properly protected that that does not in any way constitute a waiver or declassification of that information l R So I think the easiest way to handle all of this is we will take it under advisement and when we will reconvene I we will advise you of its provision and we will go from there 10 BY MR JI Q TURNER At that last session you also mentioned certain 12 research conducted for the CIA in Detroit or Wayne County Who 13 conducted that research 14 A I said that I didn't remember and I don't remember Q That has not come to you between the two dep o sitions A No Q During what period did the research at Detroit 15 now 16 17 it has not 18 19 receive CIA funding 20 A I d o n't r e mem be r th a t Q Can y o u give us a n a pp r oximat i on Doctor A 1953 to 1960 21 22 390 Q Please describe that research in Detroit 2 I don't remember 3 Q Was it funded by MKULTRA A I don't remember that 4 5 it predated or postdated it 1 7 I don't remember whether MR STRICKLAND matters Dr Gottlieb testified to these when Mr Rauh was asking him to try to recall any pos- sible MKULTRA project On page 143 of his deposition his pre9 10 Il vious depositi on he testified that there was a project there a man in Detroit connected with some mental institution in Wayne County to study LSD 12 13 MR TURNER I know that is there I am trying to find out what else Dr Gottlieb recollects about it 14 BY MR TURNER l5 16 Q You testified beforG that it i nvolvcs I SD What was the involvement with LSD Dr Gottlieb 17 A I don't remember Q Who was responsible for that pr oj ect A I don't remember that either Q Did those researchers kn ow they we re workinq for t h e A I don't have a remembrance of that 18 19 20 21 CIA 22 Q You knew a George White while you were at the CIA 2 didn't you J A Yes I did Q Is that an alias I Yes Q What was it A Morgan Hall Q What were his functions A He went through a period where he was consultant 4 He had an alias did he not 5 7 8 C JO to us and talked to him about psychogenic drugs because he 11 12 3 14 15 J l l7 18 19 20 21 had some experience with a drug that I spelled for you tetrahydr cannabinoJ_ had an arrangement with him where he administer d LSD for purposes of the Bureau of Narcotics getting information from informants and would report to us on wh a t the r esults of those were Q When did he become a consultant to the Agency A Approximately in 1952 19 5 3 Q When did he begin to conduct t he LSD te st t h a t h e reported on to the Agenc y l 22 an active ingredient in marijuana I and then we Ap p r ox i ma tc1y 19 5 4 or t h crca b o u U r d cin ' L cnwlllbc I 19 2 the exact dates 2 l 4 'i 6 R 9 Q Those tests were funded by MKULTRA weren't they A When you say funded we never -- we sup ported t h e facilities and provided the LSD Q And that was through MKULTRl was it not A I Q How long did that relationship with Mr Whit e continue A 10 years 11 12 1 1 14 l5 16 think so I am not sure but it continued for three or four I am not sure what the precise length of that term was Q Who supervised Mr White on behalf of the CIA A There is some confusion in my mind about that My remembrance is that Dr Lashbrook was the regular link advisor to White but I saw him from time to time also Q When did you first become involved with Mr White A I said 1952 Q You personally l 1952 J7 18 19 earlier I think th a t was the question y ou a sked I was the one who made the original contact had t he 20 o riginal conversati o n wi t h him 21 Q At CIA Yo u wer e t h e oriqi n al person from CIT who 22 made contact with Mr Wh i te I I 395 'T'a k c fl m 1 Did you tell him you were going to be -- that you Q 2 condoned drug testing at the facilities that you were supportin g l for Mr White As I say I couldn't remember what level of detail A T don't remember whether I told him that or not rrho CT pa i d For the safe houses in New York C i Ly Q 7 San Prancisco and Marin County didn't it I ' in The one at Marin County I couldn't attest to it Certainly the ones in New York and San Francisco I have personal knowledge of but the Marin County I heard about I was 11 12 14 I 'i overseas when it took place Q Did you ever visit the safe house in New York City I Yes Q Please describe it A I believe it was somewhere near 6th Avenue downtown 16 Manhattan area called the Avenue of the Americas 17 a small three-room apartment about a 5 to 8 story apartment 18 house and it was equipped with one way mirror so thiJt thinqs 19 20 21 22 It was going on in the one side of the mirror could be viewed from the other side Q The one way mirror was not in the house at the time it was -- the apartment at the time it was leased was it 3 9fi A I think it was installed afterwards 2 Q By whom l A 4 Q 'i A I think so Q What oo you know or 7 10 the Agency pay for it t hal· New Kork 8 1 don't remember that A l· hc acl ivitics by Mr Whi l c in safe house I don't know I don't know anything whether in fact how many times you ran these ministrations I know more about the West Coast 11 Q Apart from the activities of Mr White in the 12 New York City safe house in addition with LSD what do you know 13 of the activities conducted by officials 14 A I don't recall anything about other activities I don't recall other use made of that l'i located there j J with the Bureau of Narcotics 17 18 19 20 Q safe house Aside from the activities of Mr White what do you know of any activities in the New York safe house involvin q LSD A That is different than the last question 21 answer is the same as the last question 22 other activities involving LSD My I am not aware of 97 Q 2 What was the occasion of your visit to the New York safe hous·e A I don't remember that specifically Generally i t 4 had to do with looking at it since we were paying for it it 'i was an unusual activity and I wanted some first-hand informalion on whaL Q 8 the money was bein J spent for You authorized other payments to this activity d you not 9 A Yes Now there is some inaccuracy in here because we are really 10 the impression that White was related to this 11 talking about something that happened when White was on the 12 West c0ast and there was another supervisor whose name I don't 13 remember that 14 at least the safe house 15 or nothing to do with I i used for any LSD work Triechler mostly dealt with And White -- I am thinking about -- White had little And I don't know whether it was ever It was at a period it may overlap with the West 17 J8 or Coast safe house 19 20 It was at a later pe r iod Q This is terribly confusin g l I met White when he was j _nvolvcd in New York Soon 21 after that he was trans ferred at t h e time arter th t to th e 22 West coast and I continu e d ou r r e la t ionship with him t h ere -·--------- J 10A Sometime after that the safehouse I am talking abo ut in New and a narc o tics p e rs o n i n 2 York was set up by l New York 4 about the time elements but that is the best I can l a y i t ' out I myself a m conf u sed However much that helps you J am i ' 'r iechler L ryinci t_ri be as helpful as 1 can I h ave 1 7 slight memory of some ad hoc arrangements that White made in R New York before he left C rented temporarily and set up and then they were abandoned JO or that was terminated that arrangement when he moved to II the West Coast 12 are talking about in New York one run by White for a very 13 short time before he left there and another one later 14 He may have used a place that he And as I say there may be two things we As far as making a facility available to the Bureau 15 of Narcotics by CIA the one I was talking about first related l6 to the latter arrangement which went on for a year or two 17 And I am not aware of any activity that took place in that 18 I Q Dr Triechler set up that later safe house in d icated 20 l Ye s 21 Q Who was the o the r superv i s or A I don't re member h i s n a me 22 wiLh c1 nothcr not -11· Wh i lJ you -just Vl9 Q When did White leave New York City 2 A Approximately J Q What were the circumstances of his departure I A I think he was transferred s Q What is the basis of that statement i r don't know 7 Q What do you know of any activity vis-a-vis LSD or 1 54 thereabouts '53 R other drugs conducted by Mr White prior to his departure from ' New York City JO A I have a memory that he might have administered LSD 11 to his own contacts and informants several times 12 mean four or five times before he left New York City Q by that I Did he report to you on those or someone at CIA on those incidents 16 17 j 8 19 A In an informal way yes Q What do you mean by informal A He verbally passed them on to somebody and I became aware of him -- he might have told me about one or two directly but that is what my remembrance is 20 21 n Q I t was no L comm i l Lccl A No as far as I remember Q What did he tell you about those five or six incidents ------ - ----- -------···· t o wr _i l in 400 A 2 but by and large they involve sort of one-time administration J of LSD and talking about persons getting disoriented and most 4 of them involve kind of a high experience 'i 7 i Was a doctor present A The circumstances of all of Mr White's work on Q So as to those five or six incidents the answer is A No as far as I know Q What do you mean the circumstances of Mr White's no 10 11 12 Q LSD precluded the attendance of a doctor g work precluded the attendance of a doctor 13 A I meant he wasn't conducting experiments in the 14 conventional sense of a control experiment 15 tering LSD for operational purposes and his Bureau of Narcotic s 16 work 17 drugs and whatever it is the Bureau of 18 operational at that time 9 He was adminis- He was contacting informants he was making buys of Q Harcotics peop le 1 id Still directing your attention to New York to 20 those five or six times did Mr White tell the i ndividuals 21 receiving LSD that they were going to receive a dcug 22 -- - - I couldn't remember whether he told me directly ·· · --·•· ' '' ''''- ' ' A Certainly not 40 1 Q 2 Those individuals were unwitting participants for the administration of the LSD l A 'rhat is correct 4 Q Where were the five or six unwitting LSD tests by Mr White in New York City conducted i 7 I I don't remember that s I said 1 have only n vague remembrance whether in fact he set up the facilities That is my remembrance that he dismantled and moved to the f West Coast 10 IJ 12 13 l4 15 17 18 JI 20 21 22 I assume that took place wherever that facility was Q The detailed description of the three-room apartment A That is the one that Dr Tri6chlcr set up Q What was the purpose of that later second safe house A My remembrance is that it was for any similar activities if they came up if the opportunities presented themselves that is my general remembrance As I said I don't remember any specific drug administration that took place there Q Was that funded by MKU LTRA A You are talking about the s eco nd one Q The second one 4 2 A 2 l I presume that The first one in New York that I talked about may have predated MKULTRA Q Mr White's point of contact with the CIA for his 4 entire connections with the 7 qency was throuqh the Ch c mi c 11 5 Division in TSS is that correct Yes 'I Q Either you or Mr Lashbrook R A Formally it was Lashbrook Q Moving to the San Francisco 9 10 Would you please tell us about it A Well it is just that that lasted for a longer number As I remember that was or three or our years and 13 of years 14 there were more drug administrations made there 15 Let me ask for some advice here 16 Witness and counsel confer 17 18 19 20 21 22 you stated that you had greater knowledge of that II 12 safe house BY MR Q TURNER You were in the midst of telling us ahout the San Francisco safe house activities wc1 J I need to be reminded wha l the l ist q u cst ion Q Will you please describe the San rrancisco sa fe house activity 403 It was sort of a three-room arrangement with a one- A way mirror between two of the rooms and i t was a place where l White would administer LSD to potential informants or drug 4 contacts • 'i Q Was the room equipped for electronic surveillance 1 T clon' t Q Photographic surveillance 9 A Yes 10 Q Still pictures rather than movies or both 11 A I don't remember the details 12 Q You stated that White went to San Francisco around 7 remember that a lthouqh it may I have a remembrance of that being true '54 14 or shortly thereafter 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 lv1 v c' been l l 15 w0 l l This safehouse out there was established upon his arrival A Yes Q How long did that activity continue Jl As I said I think it was f or about three or fou r years Q That would have been '58 A Somethin g lik e Q What do you know of Mr Wh i t e ' s a 6t iv itj c s in th ut relation to that safe house l am ha z y o n Lh oso clD le A He said he used it to administer LSD to potential 2 drug informants and other dr ug contacts contacts related to l his work in the Bureau of Narcotics 4 5 Q What was the purpose of adfuinistering LSD to those individuals l T am not sur c I know what all of h i s purposes wc1·c L they were general J y to yet in r orrna l ion Lo r aci 1 i Ln Li 1HJ 7 II fl drug buys and that sort of thing 9 Q Did the CIA provide LSD to that San Francisco safe JO house also ll A l2 13 14 Yes How does administering LSD to someone assist in getting information from them A That is what he was trying to find out for himself 1 think 15 and that was information that we were interested in 16 our final conclusion that it was a very variable thing and very 17 situation dependent and was in fact not a reliable way to get 18 19 20 21 22 information Q Was LSD used as an adjunct to more conventionnl interrogation techniques in the activities of Mr White A I don't really remember that used his safe house 1 only know t hnt h e for many non-LSD related Bureau of Nc1n ol ics activities 2 4 a drug buy A 12 think that is what he was trying to find out and rloesn't work very well it doesn't work reliably What he was hoping was that it would make an individual less inhibited less careful indiscreet 10 11 I t hink his conclusion was just as an intcrroqc 1L i on ai rl ii 8 f for their operational How does administering LSD to an individual facilitate Q 1 safe house purposes and some of the time he administered LSD l 1 It was used as a Q What do you mean when you say facilitate a drug A Making i t easier for him to carry of an operation buy 13 which I understand is always a very tricky one of the con- 14 vincing a potential drug seller that you a r e a real bu y er and 15 not a narcotics agent j i J7 18 JI 20 Q How many such administrations of LSD occurred in addition with the San Francisco safe house activity A I can only give you a n order of magni t ude Q Please do Q ----30 or 40 I don't know i f you r emc mbe r bu t in Lh c 21 Kennedy testimony that was th e point of some c o n t enti o n 22 seemed to think the number was more like 200 and I tol d th ern Some 1 Of and I am telling you now that is a ridiculous figure 2 J 4 i Q And those administrati o ns o f LSD were th ey c omp l e t e l unwitting A Yes Q As to those San Francisco adm i n i str a t i ons th ere WRS no doctor present There was no doctor present 7 R 9 10 11 12 Q Were all of the LSD administrations conducted by Mr White conducted physically within the safehouse A I am not sure that they all took place there I would say most of them did Q Did Mr White test methods of administering drugs 1 3 unwittingly to individuals 14 to individuals 15 A I am not really the techniques of slippihg druqs I don't hav e a clear me mo ry o f 16 that certainly he had to do that in order to carry out his 17 kind of an operation and that was never systematically done 18 He didn't have an organized way of investigating 19 - -trying to say 20 of information that derived from the wor l he was cloinq 21 22 Q It was incidental is what Tam It was an incidental body Did Mr White test paraphernalia that had be e n prepared by TSD or other technical sections of the Cl which IJ J was designed to slip drugs to unwitting individuals such as 2 swizzle sticks l 4 A not a systematic organized way 'i i Yes he did some of that work but as I say it was Q in Did you ever see photographs of Mr White en0agcd lh0 flr ti v iLies h0 r onclur -t - cr1 ul· the r-inn T•'t·c1nr iscn i1rc l1rn1r ' or it no 7 T never saw photographs R Q Did you ever hear sound recordings A I didn't no 10 Q What do you know of the exi tence of either of those 11 A I have a vague memory that that kind of information ' 12 exists but I l l myself see it 14 15 16 Q don't know how much it was as I say I didn't Did Mr White administer LSD as part of his activities in San Francisco A I don't have that accurate a recollection on it but 17 he probably did 18 was done by people other than himself was included in that J9 20 21 22 Q When I talk about 30 or 40 whatever number What is the basis of your being so certain about 30 or 40 Doctor A Just my acquaintance wi t h t h e whole project the amount o f money he used t he number of reports he s e nt buck to I us the amount of LSD we gave him -- it was a combination of 2 all of those things J 4 Q As to the New York activity of Mr White you stated that he reported informally and orally is that correct 1 Yes Q As to the San Francisco activity 7 A He reported in writing 8 Q Written reports A Pretty much ' C 10 MR TURNER 12 THE WITNESS 14 IS He may have accumulated several of them 11 l l After each administration We will be requesting those reports They were all destroyed exist anymore MR TURNER We will still be requesting that the Agency check to be sure that those materials did not -- 16 THE WITNESS J7 MR STRICKLAND 18 THE WITNESS 19 the files were destroyed in '72 20 21 22 They don't That _w 1'-8--a-tt-elo-ne - from White hey were specifically destroyed MR STRICKLAND en '73 I think they were but l will b e qlad to check MR TURNER Certain of the documents that purport e d '1 09 to be destroyed have turned up since then Doctor 2 THE WITNESS 3 MR STRICKLAND 4 THE W I'l'NESS The reason I have an intc r cst in that found 11 J2 14 15 16 it wJ 1 l 00 on fo revcr I have a special interest r-------- MR LICHTMAN We have a special interest in it not going on forever THE WITNESS take a long time The research for these things could I may be appearing a little short I am patient I am getting very tired 13 22 We will 7 JO 21 Don't worry about it if we are going to hold these depositions in those materials ' 20 - 6 8 18 -- -- - ••' f check it 5 17 That is not true BY MR TURNER Q If you would like to stop please say so A We can go on until 6 00 Q If you are fatigued and it is even if not inter- fering with your ability to answer please say so and we will be glad to recess A LSt's go on until the time we plan Q Did Mr Whit e test other drugs aside rom LS D either in New York or in San Francisco A He might have but I don't have a remembrance of that 4 10 I might nave 2 or twice but I don't have a clear remembrance of that 5 i Q What about A 'Tetrahyclrocannabino 1 no T clon' t Q George White arranged for A I don't have any specific information on that MR STRICKLAND I believe and I Objection to the form just offer this to be helpful I believe that is incorrect 18 19 20 21 'I' he way you describe l l1c use o prostitutes JS I officers to inter- it 12 16 CIA Lh 11 • Gittinger would be a much better source to question him about 11 14 t- h ink hr 11 r cl Please tell us about that activity R JO tetrahydrocannabinol view prostitutes at the San Francisco sa£e hous 7 for instance checked out this meretran once MR TURNER My statement was George White arranged for CIA personnel to interview prostitutes in the San Francisco safehouse MR S'rRTCl T l ND Then r misunrlcrstoocl your question THE WITNESS too much about that 22 • ------ - ---··-·--······- -·· ··-· Disre g ar d what I said l don' t k no w 1 1 BY MR TURNER 2 Q Please tell us what you know J A Gittinger would know mcire I know that some nctivity 4 could come under that heading took place at the 'i I don't know any more about it I didn't monitor it I was not there when it happened I was not involved 7 II BY MR 'l'URNER Q Who else besides Gittinger was involved in that A It may have been one or two other people in the psychological group in TSO but I don't remember who they were 12 Q Rhodes 13 A I don't know 14 Q Did George Wh te use prostitutes to test methods of l 'i 16 It could have been slipping drugs to unwitting persons A I can only give you a general answer to that j7 To my knowledge the involvement of prostitutes in the West IR Coast activity had to do with the MO the modus operandi of l ' this whole drug culture 20 I am sure some of his informants were prostitutes 21 drug buys took place with their involvement 22 They came in and out of it that way some o his What I am trying to say aside from this thing -- -------------····-·--··· ·· Citt i nr1cr would have much better answers P 10 safe hou e you tl I 2 eluded to befo re I forget whether it was a study or some 2 specific interest that Gittinger ' s group had in that what l ram trying to say to my knowledge 4 prostitutes as a generic group of subjects but rather they 5 were involved as they would be in the drug scene there was not a focus on I don't know if that makes any sense to you 7 Q 'l here was a third saf ehouse in Mar in County would you please tell us what now about that safe house ' A I don't know much about that I don't think l can 10 help you much except that it existed 11 out this took place when I was overseas and when I came back 12 I found out they had conducted some work on the aerosol 13 14 15 j j 17 18 administration of LSD Q How did you find that out A I either read it in files or one of Gi t tin ger 's people related it to me Q This was when A '62 or '63 Q What was your position at that time A I was either not in TSD or when I came back in TSD 19 20 21 22 As I remember I found as their director of RUD I was either working for Bi ssell or I came back to TSD as Research and Development Director 411 Those dates may be of by a year or so Q George White knew he was working for the CIA didn't 4 A Yes he did 'i Q Anslinger 1 Yes Q Who eJ Bc 2 he 7 R • 10 A 15 18 the Bureau o f NarcoL i cs was w i LL i nq There were three other people but I don't remember MR TURNER Rather than begin on another line I think THE WITNESS You mean we have more on White because I seem to be on a track where my membry is reasonably clear about that 16 17 w i thin now who they were 11 1'1 he did of Mr White's connection with the CIA 11 l2 knew he was working for the CIA BY MR Q TURNER We will do our best there are other documents other materials I will of course come back 19 What instructions did you give Mr White as to 20 the protections of experimental sub jects that he was using 21 in LSD tests 22 A In the cours e of the period t hat I had to do v l1i t I I he knew everything I knew about LSD He was pretty much o n hi s I didn't give him any instructions He was only reque st ec 2 own 3 to report to us what happened after his LSD administration Q 4 'i What instructions did Mr Lashbrook give Mr Whit e as to the protection -1 T dnubt whethor ho qnvc him n ny Q Of the subjects in the experiment A It is euphemistically called an experiment 'l'hese were a series of more or less simulated as far as we were 10 concerned operational uses and you could tell something from IJ these data what would happen when someone got LSD and didn't 12 know in a way the information we needed to know In those days our focus was defensive primarily and 11 J5 we called these experiments that is pushing the term quite a bit Q Did you ever witness such a simulated operational A I didn't no Q Did anyone from the institute A I think so 21 Q You think so 22 A I don't remember who 17 18 19 20 use Who Gittinye r might have 415 Q Lashbrook 2 A Maybe I am not sure J Q Did you visit the San Francisco and Marin County 4 safe house You have to ask them 7 I think you asked me that and I said yes Q on how many occasJ ons l I Three 8 Q What was the purpose of those visits A sometimes I would be in San Francisco on some other I 10 business and I would drop in and talk to White about what he lI had been doing and what he needed in the safehouse 12 13 14 I5 l i 17 18 JC 20 21 22 Q Did you ever travel there expressly to visit the safe house A Yes at least once in the early months Q What was the reason for that A Just to check out the place look and what they were spending the money for Q Did you wr i te a report based on tha t visi t A I don't remember that that well Q When did the CIA's relationsh i p wi t h Mr Wh ite terminate A I am not sure of this date but it probably was sometime like -- I am just not sure I was going to say '63 2 or so but since I wasn't in CIA for that period of time J I am hazy on that point Q 4 'i What were the circumstances of your termination of l hat acl i vity i l I am not sure I remember Lhal except t hat we Cell that we knew the answers to what we nccd to know a s much t1 s we 8 can get them from that kind of an arrangement ' Q There was an Inspector General survey of TSD'which JO raised questions regarding the safehouse activity what lJ was the relationship of that to the termination of that 12 activity l l 4 A I don't remember that being directly related to the termination 15 MR TURNER think I I think this is a good place to stop will be coming back to Mr White There is an 16 I 17 extensive series of questions that I will need to go t hrou gh 18 which relate to the IG Report and the various other documen t s 19 in that time frame 20 Thank you for your time 21 We are recessing this until 10 00 a m June 14 n 1983 in the morning at the same location 417 Whereupon at 6 00 p m the deposition in the 2 J 4 h above-entitled matter recessed to reconvene at 10 00 a m June 14 1983 I have read the foregoing pages 238 thorugh 416 inclusive which contain a correct transcript of the answers given by me to the questions herein recorded 7 Sidney Gottlieb r 10 11 12 14 l5 17 18 9 20 21 22 4J8 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 2 I Millie Ciolino shorthand reporter do hereby certify l that the testimony of the witness appearing in the foregoing 4 deposition at pages 238 through 416 inclusive was tak0n hy me in shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me t· haL said deposition at said pages is a true rcconJ or th t est imony 0iven by said witness lhoL lam nc Ji hC J R for related to nor employed by any of the parties to the 1 action in which this deposition was taken and further that I col1ns •l 10 am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel II employed by the parties thereto nor financially or otherwise 12 interested in the outcome of the action 13 14 Shortha nd Reporte r 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ' I Milton Reporting Inc 11 meial J'u 11dfli 1oili11 1 I l' Millon 1-' IC JO 'Cl' V I' General Mi 1 fl 2 l I_ • ' coc 11 Washlngwn t C 2000 1 Y D utsch111an r u uurcr l1h1 11c Suilr 301 1601 Connrc1ic111 Avr N W June 6 1983 i't°lll 11 Il ORLIKOW et al v UNITED STATES Re Deposition of Sidney Gottlieb Dear Dr Gottlieb On May 17 of your address behalf of counsel who took your deposition on 1983 you arc hereby notified that the transcript deposition is now ready and available at the above for reaain and signing as requested by you Kindly let the undersigned know when you will be in If it is not convenient for you to come to our offices we would sugyest you read counsel's carbon copy prepare an errata sheet sign the errata sheet before a notary public return i t to our office and we will attach i t to the court copy of the transcript and proceed to file i t with the court If by July 6 1983 we have not received any request for extension of time or otherwise heard from you it will be 1ssumcd that reading and signing nre no longer dcsirccl c 111cl the deposition will be filed cc Mr Turner Mr Strickland ri le P11b lH Dr Sidne y Go t tlieb Rural No Box 301A Boston Virginia 22713 1•1•1 d